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 Post subject: hi guys, just registered
PostPosted: Thu Feb 10, 2011 11:10 am 
Hi guys,

I came across this site looking for successful tapering experiences. My plan, until now, has always been to get on the subs, then taper down to nothing to 'get clean' again. I have never implemented this plan successfully! Thanks to this forum, I now know why.

I started messing around with codeine roughly 10 yrs ago, went through all the pain pills, ending up on heroin for the last 7 years. Been trying to stop pretty much since i started!

Right now I have got myself on subbies again (since xmas) and am trying to find the right dose... (I don't have a doctor to discuss this with)

Many thanks for reading this, I look forward to being a member of this site.

Homer


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 10, 2011 12:45 pm 
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Hi homer and welcome. So are you getting your sub off the street rather than from a doctor? Is there a reason for that? The time(s) you were on it before, were you also getting it that way? If so, I'm thinking that that might have something to do with your issue of getting off sub and staying off it. Addicts like to be their own doctor however many believe going to a doctor for sub is part of the remission/recovery process. Allow a doctor to help you.

Have you done anything else for your recovery when you were/are on suboxone? For some people, when they stop suboxone before they are ready the cravings and the triggers become too much. I believe to be successful in tapering off and staying off one must do it for the right reasons - ie, that they are ready, have new coping skills to deal with triggers/cravings, and doing it for themselves instead of another person. Just a few examples. We have to stop thinking like an addict in order to keep out of active addiction.

Obviously I don't know much of your history, so I don't know what happened when you stopped the suboxone before. What I spoke of above was more in generalities rather than specific to your individual case.

Maybe, if you're ready, you could tell us a bit more of yourself and your history. We have people on this site who have stopped sub and are doing really well. They made changes in their overall life style. And some that are still here and still posting. (Hopefully they will weigh in here.) So it can be done, although many people advocate long term sub treatment. Again, speaking in generalities.

I hope you can find a dose that is right for you soon.

(Sorry if I haven't explained myself well. I'm not feeling too good today and I think it's affecting my writing skills. UGH)

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 10, 2011 10:44 pm 
Hi hatmaker,

Thanks very much for your reply, really appreciate it. Sorry to hear you don't feel so good, I feel so privileged you took the time considering. You explained yourself very well I think, also incredibly perceptive, I only gave the bare bones of my story, yet everything you said is bang on and relevant to me. Your writing skills on a bad day? :lol:

I have always tapered off sub far too quickly (2weeks at most) in the past. The hardest bit for me was always getting on the sub to start with. I've had some horrendous experiences going from methadone to sub, also quite bad from heroin to sub. Tapering rapidly seemed easy in comparison.

Always, after being on a low dose for a few days, I would think " i could just have a bag or 3 now me tolerance is down,
In reality, I soon ended up in a situation where I had used too much gear for too long to go back to subs. My habit tended to get worse after each time of nearly getting 'clean'

This time i went onto 100mls methadone daily (from heroin) for a couple months, got down to 50mls daily. I jumped off at 50 ml and then tapered further using dihydrocodeine for a week before i took my first subbie. Compared to previous attempts, this was a relatively painless transition. I would highly reccomend it to anyone wishin to move from methadone to subs. I can give more info on specifics if anyone was wanting to do that.


All these drugs i bought illegally. Saw a Doctor, he would be prepared to script me sub but i would need to pick my dose up daily,and consume under supervision, for minimum 3 months. I work away (9hrs away from home), 4days at a time then usually have 5-6 days off.

I have said I am happy to go in chemist for daily supervised consumption on the days I am at home. Then either they trust me with 4days worth of script or I buy 'street' subs for the 4day period. The Doc wouldn't budge on the issue. I either buy 'street' subs or quit my job. I can't see the logic of this, I love my job. I ended up on up to a £100 a day habit for a while after seeing him but managed to keep my job .

My doctor, by pure coincidence is opiate specialist and is top man for drug team in my area . I think he could really do with a couple hours talkin to DR J !

My mission now is to find another doctor. I really want my medication legally as that instantly wipes out loads of triggers by not having to go to places where i see/smell gear being smoked or injected just to get my subs


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 11, 2011 4:30 am 
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Hi Homer,

I'm going to say with your particular opiate history that you should be on Suboxone for a while. Bouncing on and off suboxone will just not get the job done. Getting stable on it and letting it do it's thing is what worked for me. I took it for just shy of three years and during that time I worked pretty closely with an addiction counselor who helped me understand my addict brain. Understanding the 'how's' and 'why's' of addiction was a key to my current success.

Staying on Suboxone for a while will help remove you from that 'old' life and transition you to a new life. I would not have made the transition if it weren't for Suboxone quieting my addict brain and thus allowing me to make the necessary changes to my life.

If I were you, the last thing in the world I would be worrying about right now is how to taper off of sub. I would be focusing on being able to have sub in my system every single day for a good while so it can do it's part while you get some kind of counselling and do your part. Suboxone alone is not the answer, it takes a good bit of leg work on your part to get where I believe you need to be.

BTW, awesome job on The Iliad and The Odyssey!!! :lol: :lol:


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 11, 2011 8:30 am 
Cheers Romeo :lol:

I think you are bang on, staying on sub for a while is the way. I am currently in my longest phase of being on it. 6 weeks with one slip, thankfully, the sub in my system was at too high a level for the gear to have any effect. (I had only taken 2mg that morning, but had taken an 8mg the evening before) The slip up just made me feel stupid for wasting my money, but it did strongly reduce the appeal of heroin to me.

My last memory of smoking gear now is of feeling stupid and cheated, getting no effect in a room full of people handing all their money over just to chase a brown blob up and down a piece of foil! (I'm in the UK, I believe no one smokes it in the US?) It seems ridiculous now but I spent years chasing this as my main priority!

Staying on sub is what I intend to do, just need to stop bouncing up and down with the dose and settle on something consistent, I know if I take 16mg it keeps me good 24hrs no problem but I need to go lower due to my random supply. I have made it 24hrs on 4mg but the next day 4mg doesn't do it. Logic would lead to 8mg daily but sometimes this works, sometimes it doesn't. If my doctor would help me without insisting I have to be unemployed I would def ask to be on 16mg.

Anyway, I am extremely grateful to have found this site, previous experiences I had read on other forums led me to believe rapid taper was the only way to use subs.

Homer


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 11, 2011 8:36 am 
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If you feel better at 16 mg, then you should, in my opinion, stick with that dose. Or you could try something like 12 mg. You want the lowest dose that will quell the withdrawals AND the cravings. Hang in there -you're doing great!

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-I'm only responsible for what I say, not for what you understand.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 11, 2011 10:41 am 
Cheers for the support man, oddly I don't think i've tried a 12mg daily dose yet. I will try that for a few days in a row..

My problem is when i've just got hold of a few subs I tend to take 8-16mg a day for a bit till I get worried about getting low, then I take 2-4mg as and when I feel WDs closing in. The lower I get the longer I will put up with WD before dosing, my ultimate fear being that I run out. (With heroin I just used to consume every bit I laid my hands on with little worry about the next day) Then I manage to get some again so I take 8-16mg....

I currently have enough to take 12mg per day for 2 weeks. I will stick to a set time and record the dose each day somewhere. Meanwhile I'll try and get myself relocated to a new surgery and also work on getting new supplies of subs while I still have enough to stick to 12mgs a day.

I'm not sure if there is a recommended time to dose, AM or PM, I will search the forum, either has to be better than my current way.

Thanks again

Homer


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 11, 2011 11:41 am 
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Most people try to dose once daily and forget about it, although there are a few who do so at night because it makes them a bit sleepy. If you can take the same dose at the same time every day, you'll be more stable and you'll feel so much better.
Let us know how that goes.

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-As I have grown older, I've learned that pleasing everyone is impossible, but pissing everyone off is a piece of cake.

-I'm only responsible for what I say, not for what you understand.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 11, 2011 11:50 am 
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Most people on the forum would suggest you dose once per day, but given that you are really just getting on sub, I would encourage you to dose twice per day. An AM dose then a PM dose. Once you get good and stable on sub, then consider once a day dosing.

I understand the sticky situation you're in with obtaining your subs. I sure wish you could just go to a doctor and get a months worth, but you can't. That's a crying shame because you really sound like you are ready to move forward with your life.

As far as your slip goes, I'm glad it happened. Some of us need that negative reinforcement that comes with a slip. Now you associate feeling stupid and cheated with your drug of choice and that'll actually help you.

BTW, it does NOT sound ridiculous that you have spent years chasing the drugs as your main priority, it may sound ridiculous to many, many others in the world, but I assure you it doesn't sound ridiculous to anyone on this forum. We've all been there, man.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 11, 2011 12:02 pm 
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I'm not clear - are you currently dosing once per day or twice? That really is the question. If you've been dosing only once per day then I would suggest you stay there. Some people do start out at twice per day then go down to once, but since you didn't just start but rather have been on it since xmas and at only once per day (?), then I don't see the benefit of switching down to twice per day. Just my opinion.

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-As I have grown older, I've learned that pleasing everyone is impossible, but pissing everyone off is a piece of cake.

-I'm only responsible for what I say, not for what you understand.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 11, 2011 5:20 pm 
I have been all over the place with dosing. Sometimes daily if I took a large enough dose. Many times it was multiple dosing through day and night, due to trying scrape by. Also sometimes I have tried to take a certain daily dose and it hasn't been enough so after, say, 18hrs I've taken another small dose. The only times I've had a decent amount of subs are when I started and now.

I plan to take 12mg once daily, as you suggested. I took 12mg today at 17:00 GMT. Half an 8mg under tongue at a time until its gone then the next half, then the next half (I'm sure more gets wasted when I put whole dose under at once) I'm having doubts that 5pm is an ideal time but I can always change it a bit.

I'm really hoping 12mg will work for me. I have enough subs to stick to 12mg daily for 2 weeks. This will hopefully give me enough time to find more

Really appreciate the help, advice and support guys, thanks


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 12, 2011 11:47 am 
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homer wrote:
Hi hatmaker,

My mission now is to find another doctor. I really want my medication legally as that instantly wipes out loads of triggers by not having to go to places where i see/smell gear being smoked or injected just to get my subs


Good idea 8)


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 12, 2011 11:58 am 
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Romeo wrote:
BTW, it does NOT sound ridiculous that you have spent years chasing the drugs as your main priority, it may sound ridiculous to many, many others in the world, but I assure you it doesn't sound ridiculous to anyone on this forum. We've all been there, man.


I thought it might be worth mentioning that I completely agree with Romeo here. In fact, sharing your experience with other addicts is part of you get better. There is nothing, and I mean absolutely nothing ridiculous about that. This addiction thing kills people. As in dead. It's gotten a few people close to me including my sister-in-law, who was found dead on the kitchen floor (by her 17 year old daughter) from an overdose.

We get better by (among other things) talking about how we got here with other people who understand the disease of addiction. There is no shame in being an addict, just like there is no shame in having diabetes or cancer or Hepatitis C.

Drugs were MY main priority for over 30 years and I spent over half of that time locked in prison because of drugs.

You're on the right path.


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 12, 2011 12:06 pm 
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By the way, for what it's worth, I found very little difference in how I felt between dosing once per day or twice.

I think if you're taking anything over 4mg per day it's a non-issue.

And the way I see it, dosing multiple times per day is something that tends to reinforce active addiction behavior. I understand that it's necessary sometimes at lower doses, and not everyone is the same, so it may not work for some people to dose a single time per day, but if you CAN do it, I think it's a "best practice" when it comes to taking suboxone.


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