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PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2012 8:57 am 
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Given Dr. J is dead set against more than once a day dosing, I thought maybe it would be time for me to try single day dosing again. I'm sure my doctor will be happy for me to do this given it's "safer" for the pharmacy and him for me to not take home my evening dose every time.

I think the reason is that, ever since I re-stabilised on 12mg (6mg morn / 6mg evening) and have started getting some withdrawal leading into my next dose, I've realised I kinda look forward to taking my Sub which definitely is not a good thing. I equate having my Sub with relieving the wd feelings I'm having, mainly sensitivity to cold, goosebumps, aches, watery eyes and malaise.

Just to give an example of how crazy my metabolism of Sub is. I couldn't take my evening dose lastnight ... Just one "half day" dose within 12 hours I break out in detox sweats. In the past I have been known to be able to use with little blockade 12 hours after my last dose. That's a pretty fast metabolism.

At the moment I have 6mg morning and 6mg evening. Instead I will have 12mg morning.

The issue I've had with single day dosing in the past is that the dose wears off too fast, and I'd wake up in the morning "hanging out". But equally I've found that the side-effects I get from Sub are worse when I take my dose all at once, especially libido issues. Because of that I get the feeling that at least for me, low testosterone has a lot to do with peak levels of bupe in my body.

It will also be interesting if I get any opioid effect by taking it all at once. I am NOT doing it to chase the effect in any way. I'd just like to know a bit better where exactly my "ceiling" lives. If the ceiling is at 4mg as Dr. J has said many times in the past, then this shouldn't happen.

Things to look forward to:

- Only gotta have gunk in my mouth once a day.
- If I still feel wd's leading into my dose, it'll only be in the morning and not in the evening as well.

Things I'm concerned about:

- Libido.
- Increased side-effects.
- Withdrawals may be worse in the morning.
- May get an opioid effect that will add to Sub's "addictiveness".

Will keep ya'll posted, and promise to be as balanced and objective as I can when I compare.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2012 9:27 am 
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Man TJ, if I had to go to the pharmacy every day to get my dose, I would've tried to taper off of sub a long time ago. That seems like a huge inconvenience, but shows how bad you really do want sobriety. I look forward to you updating this thread to see how it goes.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2012 10:23 pm 
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It's not once a day anymore. I can get 4 take aways per week now (because I'm such a good boy) which makes it 3 times a week I go in. It's still a nasty pain, but it's a good motivation to wanna get off the stuff.

I actually half-forgot to do it this morning. Because of the mild-withdrawal thing, I've started taking my Sub in bed when the wd's kick in then laying back down for an hour. I only had 6mg's on my bedside table, so it'll have to wait til tomorrow.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2012 12:08 am 
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Hey TJ, I am absolutely NOT trying to piss in your Cornflakes here, but.....do you think now is a good time to expose yourself to greater wd and possibly greater cravings? You had a close call a week or so ago when you went to your car, went back to the house, went to the car, went back to the house, went to the car, went back to the house. Are you ready to deal with the wd's without using?? Are you ready for the cravings that may be present??

It almost seems like you're setting yourself up for a relapse?

I understand your desire to give once per day dosing a shot, I just want you to ask yourself if now is a good time to do that.

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2012 3:58 am 
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Yeah you are probably right.

To be honest the reason I wanted to try it again was because I've been having a hard time. As you know, I've been trying to see what I can change or do differently lately. But now I can see it from that point of view as well. Twice a day dosing has been serving me just fine.

My thoughts were - once a day dosing might mean no more craving and mild withdrawal onset in the evening, but potentially more in the morning. But I've always found mornings "safer" than evenings, because in the morning I'm at home where my Sub is or I am close to the pharmacy where I pick up.

I went to a NA meeting yesterday and got ..something.. out of it. I may go to one tonight.

Today I realised that since breaking up with my ex, there is literally nobody I talk to "in the flesh" who's in recovery and understands where I'm coming from. This is one of the reasons I've wanted to reach out to meetings again. SMART is okay, but they're mainly middle aged recovering alcoholics and while the disease is the same, the experiences do differ a lot.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2012 11:54 am 
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TJ, just curious, what did you get out of the NA meeting that you went to? I will never go because I'm too shy. Plus I think I'd get angry over the references and similarities to religion. I know you can take what you want and leave the rest, but I have issues with religion, so I won't even put myself in that position.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2012 4:23 pm 
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TJ, I hit a meeting last night, that's my second one in 3 months, I just went to get my 6 month key chain (it's pretty blue!).

Anyhow, it was a speaker meeting and I've heard this guy once before, he's sensational. He's one of a very few of the long timers that I know from NA who is actually recovering, know what I mean? He spoke on "self" last night and how we tend to always put ourselves first. He made some really good points and I was so glad I attended, I needed to hear what he had to say.

I'm glad you were able to get something out of your meeting, that's great to hear. I know for me, I was remembering the things I hated about NA instead of the things that helped me. It is hard as hell to listen to some guy or gal with 5 years clean complaining about the same problem at EVERY meeting, the same 6 people jockey for position to "share" their strength, hope and bitchin' with all of us and that's just a part of what drove me bonkers at meetings. But I do remember getting some valuable info as well during my time in NA, so I've decided I'm gonna try and hit a meeting every week or so.

I hope you're NA experience is a better one this time around.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2012 2:26 am 
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Taurus wrote:
TJ, just curious, what did you get out of the NA meeting that you went to? I will never go because I'm too shy. Plus I think I'd get angry over the references and similarities to religion. I know you can take what you want and leave the rest, but I have issues with religion, so I won't even put myself in that position.


Hey man...

It wasn't so much what anyone shared in particular. It was just the fact I was around people in recovery and they were clean, no Subox or anything, and many had been for long periods. It was heartening to once again see the sheer number of people who are clean from bad cases of addiction and aren't reliant on a drug like Sub or methadone for their recovery. Made it feel possible I could do it again.

Since I broke it off with my ex who was also a recovering addict, but who never did any meetings and managed to get clean on her own ... I've found there's been a lack of people to talk to or be around who really understand. Sure there's all you guys, but there's something less personal and less real about text on a screen.

My "non-addict" friends all take party drugs on occasion and binge drink when they party, which is all good I don't have a problem with that. But I feel like I've grown out of that, and would like to hook back in with some people who can really understand what it means and feels like to have come from that world and to have done the things we've done, and don't need to drink to get drunk when around friends and stuff (which is normal Aussie behaviour really).

If only I could separate the people from the steps and the jargon and crap, and have a few people to kick the football with and grab coffee with without feeling judged for being on Suboxone or not working the steps or even (gasp) having the occasional drink of alcohol.

The thing is, if I continued going to NA for the purpose of hooking back in with some guys in recovery and get a new social circle, I WILL have to get honest about the Suboxone, and there's something about that which scares the fuck outta me. Probably because I've been telling all my old friends in the program that I'm not on Subs or methadone, that I'm kicking ass without "drug replacement" and without meetings. It's definitely a pride thing.

Because most people in those rooms are recovering heroin addicts and have been on Sub, they can tell, just like I could tell when I was "abstinent" the people who were on Sub. I was standing opposite a mirror and just by looking at my eyes and comparing them with the guy next to me, I could tell.

Another thing was, at the meeting there were a coupla guys who were there (one whom was an old counsellor of a halfway house I was in) who were no doubt happy to see me leave the rooms. There's something about some guys who just find my mere presence makes them uncomfortable. I have ZERO want to hook into any of the women in those rooms, and I'm all too happy to make that clear. After how healthy my last relationship was for me, I've realised that the best way to learn healthy relationships is to have a healthy partner who's outside the rooms. For some reason some guys, especially those that think they're top shit, just don't get it?

All I really want from that place is a group of guys to knock around with, kick the footy with and who I can talk real stuff with and not have to drink copious amounts of alcohol with.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2012 4:56 am 
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I am just like you TJ. I have one of the fastest metabolisms I've ever seen out of anyone I know. I know people on subs who can take their dose and not even need to take their dose the following day because the buprenorphine is still present and working, but lord not for me. Example: I take 8mg a day. Plan on going to 6mg soon. If I wake up around 10am, and take my first 4mg of suboxone, I am fine all day but by around 10-12 hours later, I start feeling the sensitivity to cold, very noticeably so. I even ask my family, "Is it cold in here or is it just me?" As I want to be sure that hey maybe it's just a bit too low on the thermostat, but every time my family tells me "No, it's you. It's 70 degrees in the house. Yet I have to put on a hoody, and sweat pants because I feel so chilled. Then the goosebumps come, and the general lethargy. The lack of strength, or should I say "Desire" or "Willpower" to do mundane tasks when required, especially at work and it's causing me a bit of grief because taking my next dose at work(since I work nights is not all that easy especially when you have to communicate with people on a very frequent basis. So, within 10 hours 4mg is not keeping "held" anymore and that;s rather frustrating to me given buprenorphines normal 36hr half life. I wonder if there's anything I can do to SLOW DOWN my metabolism to see if it would help this situation. I feel as if the suboxone should be lasting longer. And I know it's definitely mild come-up of withdrawal symptoms that I'm experiencing, because when I go ahead and take that next 4mg dose around 8-10pm, I feel 100% better within 20 minutes. My body temperature returns to normal, the goosebumps subside, my energy and willpower is back to normal.

But the kicker is, this never used to be the case. I was not ALWAYS a twice-a-day doser. I used to take my 8mg around lunch time every day and be fine for 24+ hours without even thinking about needing to take my next dose. In fact, there would be days I'd forget, and I'd end up with extra at the end of the month which I then gave back to my doctor and had him throw away(Just because thats a promise I made him, and I keep my promises) but for some reason now, suboxone is just not holding me as long, and as well as it used to. I have relapsed in between the times I was a once a day doser, up until now. Twice to be exact. One time was 90mg of oxycodone 14hrs after suboxone, and I had ZERO trouble breaking through, and I got high as a kite, almost too much so. The other time, I took 4mg of sub in the morning, got into a fight with my girlfriend, and at around 7pm that night, I scored 3 bags of heroin, shot it, and rushed as if I had ZERO blockade effect going on. Less than 12 hours! My body and this medication makes no sense to me, and I can only conclude that it must be due to how fast my metabolism is pushing the bupe out of my system, thus requiring a "reset/restart" and taking another dose. I've been stable too on this dose for a very long time. It's been months since I last relapsed, and I've been on suboxone for 2 years now(Started at 24mg).

I wonder if anyone besides TJ shares my experience with suboxone definitely not having a 36hr long duration of effect for them. Or even close to that. I should feel perfectly content with 4mg all day long, for 24 hours and possibly upwards of 30 hours. That's how it used to be in the past. But now it's not, and nothing has really changed about my body. I've lost a little weight, but I've always been skinny. I think I'm 145 now instead of 150, so not much change. I say 4mg should hold me free of all withdrawal symptoms for that amount of time because I AM at ceiling and have been for a while, so 4mg or 8mg technically makes no difference if I'm under the right assumption regarding ceiling.

I mean, I'm not complaining, I just really would like to start lowering my dose and I feel like this may present an issue there as far as stabilizing on a lower dose. And I'd much rather take it once a day and be done. It's getting to the point where I feel like maybe my mind is playing tricks on me, and that I'm not actually suffering from any detox symptoms, but sure enough after awhile, I goto check my theory, and my pupils are enlarged, I have goosebumps, and I'm wearing a hoody outside when it's 75 degrees. 8 or so hours after my 4mg dose. That, makes zero sense to me and I simply don't understand it. I mean, I spit out my saliva that holds the naloxone usually, but I've always done that so I don't see how it could be an issue.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2012 6:15 am 
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Great posts. I am really feeling glad to be on the forum.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2012 12:03 pm 
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Subox845 wrote:
I wonder if there's anything I can do to SLOW DOWN my metabolism to see if it would help this situation.


Subox845 - Have you seen this thread? http://suboxforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=6144

Are you currently taking any other meds or supplements? If so, that could be speeding up your metabolism of the buprenorphine, if any of them are inducers of the CYP3A4 enzyme, which is the enzyme that metabolizes sub. You can find the charts with these meds listed in the links provided in this thread.

If you are not taking any of these meds or supplements, maybe you can try taking one or more of the inhibitors on the list, like start drinking kava tea (which I drink to help me sleep), grapefruit juice, or pomegranate juice, to see if that helps slow down your metabolism of the bup at all.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2012 9:52 pm 
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I'm pretty sure what u guys are experiencing are mental .. i have a super fast metab.. i usually start to feel the wd starting barely at 24-30 hrs..

there is a difference between "active effect" of sub and how much is n your blood..

the active effect of sub is only about 6-8 hours....

i would suggest not taking it for 2 days and u will see what the real WD feels like...

if your taking sub everyday cause of the stacking effect and metabolism there is no way u would feel real w/d after any sooner than 24 hrs


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2012 9:38 am 
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You are pretty sure of nothing.

Stacking effect relies on having an excess of buprenorphine in the body when a person takes their next dose. If they have already burned through their previous dose by the time their next dose comes along, there is no "stacking" effect.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2012 12:10 am 
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If you take the same dose of bupe everyday it's impossible to not get the stacking effect the half life is about 37 hrs.. Even with fast metabolism taking daily there is gonna be loads of bupe in ur system ...

Thats why the real withdrawals kick in hard days after last dose

I would suggest twice a day dosing for u guys if u feel it wearing off fast


I don't know what ur attitude problem is tearjerker seriously ppl are just trying to help and u are Straight up rude in tons of ur posts.. Sorry to be honest but someone has to say it.


It's ok I will love you no matter what I hope u find what works for you

Seriously though Try dosing again later in day but not too late to keep you up all night


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2012 4:01 am 
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I'm only rude when people make patronising comments like suggesting something very real is just a figment of one's imagination... Even after their doctor has confirmed that ultra-fast metabolism is real, is mostly based on genetics, or based on other medication.

Two, the stacking effect only happens when there is enough bupe remaining in their blood come their next dose. This means that up to a point the peak levels of bupe increase slightly with each dose.

Thirdly ... the half life of buprenorphine relies completely on the rate one metabolises the drug. If some people, ie people with overactive CYP3A4 / CYP2D6 enzymes in their liver, be it naturally or because they've been induced by other medication. In people like that, the half-life of buprenorphine can be at low as a few hours. While I was being treated with certain anti-depressants, my doctor got clearance from the authorities to prescribe me doses over 32 mg because the anti-depressants were inducing my metabolism of Sub. I was burning through it in a matter of hours, and was using heroin the same day I was being dosed 16mg with no blockade whatsoever.

Now you're aware of that, does it make sense that I'd be a bit annoyed when someone comes along and says "it's all in your head"? Exactly the same reason I was rude in another thread to another person who accused another member of exactly the same thing.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2012 4:54 am 
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Well'. my doc as was told in my early'r post has kept' my contract up to date that say's suboxone talkzone is my meetings :)
he also agree's with me to take 4mg in the morning because of slight pain in the ass W/d do to fast METABOLISM. at first he
said it can not happen and now he seems to agree.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2012 5:00 am 
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TEAR" the feeling of pain and discomfort is reel in the morning and there is nothing wrong with taking 4 in the morning caused from MATABOLISM INDUSED W/D.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2012 5:04 am 
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OH i for got to tell you that I AM NOT A DTR :lol:

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2012 5:07 am 
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he is not a doctor because it say's johnboy' and not DR' johnboy :lol:

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2012 10:57 pm 
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Whatever man Im not gonna waste my energy arguing with you about half life and metabolism...

instead well have you tried any of my other suggestions?


Just split up your dose 2 or 3x a day...


I would take 1mg 3x a day to get all the norebupe with your super fast metabolism... would prob feel way better anyways than higher doses and less crappy side effects...

If nothing else works well i don't know what to tell you man; methadone?

Honestly if I were in your situation and had to go to a clinic to get my meds all the time i would just go on methadone...

Some people bupe just doesn't seem to hold them or satisfy all of their cravings; albeit most cravings on bupe are indeed mental once stabilization has occurred...


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