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 Post subject: giving up
PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2012 12:33 am 
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I probably should have seen this coming, but i've been off 7 months now and have reached a brick wall. I Just can't go on like this anymore, my environment doesnt allow it. Still having bad PAWS symptoms to the point where I can't work (other than at home, and its not enough). My parents wont let me live with them if I do take any type of narcotic, and I'm currently living with them.

So I'm going to a psych. this Friday, i'm not sure her skill level in dealing with withdrawal, but its the first appointment i can get to. So , can you guys give me some ideas of medications which I could ask her about? I've taken anti-depressants in the past and had very bad reactions to them, mainly to lexapro and Effexor. I also tried Paxil, Buspar, and Welbutran, which werent as bad as the previous two, but still made me pretty sick. So I'm not sure if i am "allergic" to anti-depressants or what.

I hope I dont have to get back on a narcotic, but if I do, so be it. Its not any worse than what I"m going through now, trust me.

I'm currently taking L-tyrosine, Tryptophan sometimes for sleep, vitamins, and eating and exercise the best I possibly can.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2012 12:58 am 
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Hey I'm sorry ur goin thru this. All I can say is what I'm sure u have heard a million times. It will get better, it has to. There's been a few people that were hurtin as long as you and they eventually got better. Try to be positive, the mind is a powerful thing. As they say 'fake it till you make it'

U had sub for pain 3 years and no prior opiate history & tapered the 3rd year to .5 right?

-gb


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2012 12:03 pm 
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hey glen bee, yeah, that's correct, you did your homework:)

I'm hanging in for now, but damn it's painful. Really hoping the psychiatrist will have something for me Friday.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2012 11:00 pm 
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Asking for a specific drug is a huge red flag to doctors that they are dealing with a drug seeker. Mention symptoms instead - anxiety, depression, pain, whatever; but don't mention specific drugs.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 26, 2012 2:06 am 
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eric" you may not be going through all W/D . i thought i was once'. you no it may be some thing else.
the reason why your going through this hell' may be that dam thing i had and still recovering from is the rebuke inhibit-
sairotonin level " and if there low enough 'they can make you feel like life is nothing but hell!!
sorry ". my spelling sucks. just try and find the right meds that can help you. have you thought of (abilify)? i'm no doc BLAA BLAA, but lexapro works for me and abilify did not. just a thought. abilify can lift your depression or W/D.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 26, 2012 1:03 pm 
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what is the seratonin level youre talking about? Having seratonin levels which are too low? I dont understand.

I know the way I feel is not entirely from withdrawal, but I also know a lot of it is.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 26, 2012 2:08 pm 
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I have a friend who finally got relief for her anxiety, depression, PTSD, etc from a combo of Remeron and Adderall.

Psych drugs are really a kind of guessing game and the doctor should take a good amount of time going over your symptoms and your past medication history before picking something out for you.

On the other hand, you should also have a physical to rule out any other problems you might be having. I'm not sure what your symptoms are, but things like depression and fatigue can be related to thyroid issues, for example. Some issues that I was having that I thought were lingering side effects completely went away when I quit eating dairy and wheat.

Don't give up!

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 27, 2012 1:55 am 
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What medications really depends on your symptoms. Is it anxiety, depression or both?

I've had a bad relationship with so called "activating" (stimulating) anti-depressants in recovery. I seem to do better with the melatonin / tetracyclic / tricyclic varieties.


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 28, 2012 10:45 pm 
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one sarotonin level is the one that maintains your daily living all most . my doc put me on a med that lifted all the feelings,
of anxiaty depression sleep fibromalgia witch now i only have for a couple hours in the morning. the level i'm talking about
helped me a lot do to lexapro, and it dose not work for every one.
i have been on it for over a year now, and it seems it is not working as good any more.

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 29, 2012 9:55 pm 
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I guess I am not sure what you are trying to do. A Dr. who can help with some sort of medication as long as it is not
a narcotic in any way?

There are the drugs Dr. Junig mentions on the mp3 tape for sale on the site. The new Dr. may be more
comfortable prescribing something from a tape by another doctor? It is better than your coming up with a drug
you say you think might help.

Is thing right?-- You are long off subs and need some help from some sort of drug that is not suboxone or anything like it.

It is good advice, given earlier, to check everything out with a doctor or two, since everything is not for sure PAWS or related to the quit you did. And these doctors might come up with something you did not think of when in the process of eliminating other things.

Since you are taking amino acids you might want to have a look at an excellent book titled The Mood Cure.
Forget the author just now-- Julie something. Just look at Amazon books and it will be there.

good luck.

S


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jul 30, 2012 4:35 pm 
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I guess im looking for something for anxiety and depression

I went on Friday and the doctor I saw recommended neurontin or klonopin. She said Klonopin is the least addictive of the benzos and that its generally pretty safe. Im not sure if I believe her or not, I do know that in low doses it doesnt seem that addicting, but even then I cant imagine i'd take it for more than a few days.

Also Im scared that it will somehow set me back in terms of the suboxone withdrawal.

As of now I'm taking neurontin as needed. Its ok, not great, but it takes the edge off to a certain degree at times.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 30, 2012 5:18 pm 
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I got addicted to klonopin, that shit is strong. It was my favorite benzo, I indeed took it every day though multiple times. Just be careful. I've heard good things about neurontin but don't know anything about it.

Feel better bud. I'm jumping soon in about 2 weeks.

-glen


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jul 30, 2012 10:33 pm 
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The standard "non-addicting" medications they prescribe for anxiety & depression are certain SSRI/SNRI's - namely Paroxetine (bad for sexual side effects), Effexor (also not very good for sexual side-effects), Cymbalta, Lexapro, Prozac, Luvox, Cipramil. These all are dependence forming however, though how much is kinda unpredictable and varies from person to person, and even varies each time a person goes on it. However generally I've found they can be a bit nasty to go off, though I do have a "trick" that helps somewhat. There are a number of different ones, and you just gotta find the ones that work for you. Generally the SSRI's are easier to come off than the SNRI's (exception maybe of Paroxetine).

They all have stimulant properties, but can kinda make a person "rise above" their anxiety and depression. Despite feeling stimulated, there's a kinda "everything's gunna be okay I'm happy anyway" feel about em, even in the face of impending disaster. This can be good for lots of people but I found it a bit unnatural to be feeling good when my dog had just died and my girlfriend had left me and I was homeless. In such a situation a person should really be a bit anxious and sad.

There's also the atypical antipsychotics that are often prescribed off-label for anxiety. Things like Seroquel (Quetiapine), Abilify.

There's also Buspar / Buspirone, though I've never been on it. It's a medication used only to treat anxiety. Works well for some people it seems, others not so well.

I'd highly suggest you steer well clear of benzodiazepines. Like opioids, at first they feel like a miracle cure. However it's not long before you end up dependent, even addicted. And many people say they are harder to get off than opioids. As they say, if it feels to good to be true, it probably is.

I'd also look into meditation, or a calming form of exercise. For me, that's swimming.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jul 31, 2012 12:20 am 
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i've tried effexor, lexapro. They both made me feel like a wreck. I think it was the stimulation youre talking about - i dont do well with stimulation. It made me literally feel sick, i could never go on those drugs.

so i'm guessing that klonopin is a no go. Does everyone become dependent on it after a while, even in low doses?


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 31, 2012 10:25 pm 
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I tried all the ssri drugs as well. If you feel crappy on 1 you will be crappy on all. Your are having a bad reaction to them and don't use them. It's kinda like an allergic reaction. I tried a few with different level and all the same reactions, high blood pressure, sweats, chills, prostate leaking. I felt worse than being depressed. If anyone has a bad reaction to te ssri steer clear of them all.. Tell your dr how all the ssri meds make you feel. There is other options.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 31, 2012 11:05 pm 
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eric is wrote:
i've tried effexor, lexapro. They both made me feel like a wreck. I think it was the stimulation youre talking about - i dont do well with stimulation. It made me literally feel sick, i could never go on those drugs.

so i'm guessing that klonopin is a no go. Does everyone become dependent on it after a while, even in low doses?


I'd say yes. Everyone would end up dependent, but like Suboxone there's varying levels of dependence. Just like a person on a higher dose of Sub will have a harder time coming off, same with Klonopin.

I've found that even after a week of taking benzos there's a degree of bounce back anxiety. It's like all the anxiety you avoid by taking the medication kinda hits you and things can get difficult, and it's hard to sleep etc.

There's no "free ride" with drugs like benzos and opioids.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 31, 2012 11:42 pm 
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ok, so theres no free ride. So what do I do, just stick with cognitive therapy and hope it eventually works? It seems to me that with any drug it's going to just mask the symptoms for a while and then the person will experience a bounce back of symptoms. Or is that only true with certain drugs? I'm confused.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2012 4:44 am 
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I'm sorry you're feeling this way. I have to respectfully disagree with a few of the things said above. For example, someone said if one antidepressant makes you feel lousy (something like that), then they all will make you feel lousy. I don't believe that to be true. They may be in the same class of medications, but they are all different and even though one may not work for you and give you negative side effects, another could work very well for you with zero side effects. Getting on the right anti-depressant (assuming you require one and that's up to you and your doctor) is trial and error, always has been.

As for antidepressants making a person feel happy or that everything's going to feel okay or that every person on them feels any stimulant properties from them, again, I disagree. For example, I experienced that very thing on Prozac, but nothing like that on my current Celexa. Ideally, an antidepressant will make a person go from feeling abnormal (depressed) to normal (not depressed), but it shouldn't make a person feel artificially happy. Just like when on anti-anxiety meds, they aren't to make a person feel artificially relaxed, but they are there for people who are abnormally anxious and to take them from that abnormal state to a normal state...not a desired relaxed state. (Check out Dr. Junig's blog post, "Are you anxious? Are you sure?" http://suboxonetalkzone.com/are-you-anx ... -you-sure/ ).

I mean no disrespect to the people I disagreed with, just that those are their experiences and these are mine, therefore it's important to realize that one person's experience doesn't apply ACROSS THE BOARD, even though it may be presented that way. EVERYONE IS DIFFERENT and will react differently to meds.

Just remember, the point of antidepressants is to go from an abnormal state to a normal state...not to an artificial happy or non-feeling state. In my opinion, if that's the person's reaction, they still haven't found the right AD.

It's my opinion that you'll have to go through some trial and error just like most people do. And like the others have said, I'd steer clear of the benzos for now. Whatever antidepressant you end up on could very well help the anxiety.

Also consider the fact that you're clean and sober now. Could you have had emotional/mental issues that were present in or before your active addiction that you never dealt with that are rising to the surface now without your DOC on board? Ideally while we're on suboxone we have the time to work on that. But if for whatever reason you didn't do that, those issues could be coming up for you now. Maybe try some meditation if you still need some help with the anxiety. Check out the sticky thread under the "chronic pain" section. There's a thread about meditation there.

Good luck and keep us posted on how you're doing. (Sorry this turned out to be so long-winded. It's what happens when one doesn't sleep.)

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2012 5:49 am 
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Hi Eric...I've been following this thread now since the beginning and I am so sorry that you are going through this. Depression SUCKS and so does anxiety. I have experienced them both before and they can be absolutely debillitating. It is so hard to get this through to a doctor too, especially when they just treat it, but have not experienced it themselves. That was the problem I had with my doctor. He had this attitude like, "well you SHOULD be feeling fine. I prescribed you medication that works for so and so." And that was my big problem with him. He had a one size fits all treatment plan for these things, and that is just not realistic.

Everyone is so different in their reactions to medications. ESPECIALLY in this department. I personally had the same problem you are having. I found that I could not take any of them. My reaction was not the same as yours, however the end result was the same in that I simply could not take them. For some reason, every antidepressant they tried, increased my anxiety. I was better off without them. Then on top of that, they wanted to treat me with benzos. Not a good idea for me. Short term, I'm fine with them. But it had to be valium or klonopin, and only as needed. I had the hardest time coming off of xanax, and I didn't even abuse it. When I finally DID get off of it successfully, the rebound anxiety was so intense. Worse than it was previously.

I wish that I had some magic answer for you as to what will work. In the end, I am on nothing. And I feel just fine. I do have an issue going on with my sub doc causing me anxiety and a little depression, however, its normal to feel this way considering what I am going through. I truly wish you the best and hope that you are able to figure something out to address this. I HATE hearing someone go through this. I was absolutely miserable and could function just enough to take care of my sons needs and that is it. Nothing more. No motivation, laying on the couch, some suicidal thoughts, etc.. I am so so sorry you are where you are at. I truly sympathize with you and hope for the best for you. Please keep us posted on how you are doing. I know it doesn't get rid of it, but just getting it out in writing sometimes makes me feel at least a little better. We are all here for you. Good luck.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2012 7:58 am 
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Sometimes they prescribe lithium as well for depression, especially for those who don't find the standard anti-depressants work. They call it anti-depressant augmentation - ie prescribing lithium + an anti-depressant because it makes the anti-dep more likely to work.

Lithium in itself has some anti-depressant effects, though that's not its main use.


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