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 Post subject: Best of luck TeeJay
PostPosted: Mon Apr 22, 2013 5:01 pm 
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I do not know much about Ibogaine. I have, however, tried just about every other method known to man to get off opiates. For the most part people that have had years and years off drugs and alcohol tend to disagree with methods such as Ibogaine, comfort meds, long tapers and such is because you are just putting off recovery. You are delaying the inevidable of withdrawal. The reason we do this is all because of fear. One tiny word that can shatter us and recovery, fear. aka Fuck Everything And Run.... or what I like to live by Face Everything And Recover . I think it's as simple as wanting to get sober. When you really truly want something you would think that you would just decide to start your recovery today. I know you want to get sober hun, I really do. Because I am you. I have came up with these genious ideas in my head of how to recover and have as comfortable withdrawal as I could have. They never worked for me though. The last time it worked was when I had the same burning desire to use as I did to recover and just end the madness. And honestly, the w/d's weren't much differant from when I tried the "easier" ways. Try praying. I'm no bible thumper , believe me. But keep praying morning and night. Do not stop before the miracle happens. What could be the worst that happens?


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 22, 2013 10:37 pm 
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This is just the opinion of one.

I don't think people just get on or stay on suboxone because they are afraid of withdrawal. Nor do I think it prevents or prolongs recovery or whatever.

Some things here need some serious thought.

Maybe im just crazy, but I don't think most get on suboxone because of fear of withdrawal or do they feel like they can't have any recovery unless off of it.


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 Post subject: What is Ibogaine?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 22, 2013 11:56 pm 
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Hi. I am very new to the forum, suboxone and recovery. I usually don't say much but I have no idea what ibogaine is. I am guessing its some form of detox method not used in the United States but that's all I have come up with. I am scared to death of the day my Dr says I have to jump so Teejay ii hope this "Ibogaine" treatment works for you if that's the route you decide to take whatever it might be. Best of luck to you whatever you do, you can do it!
Crys


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 25, 2013 2:53 am 
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Crystal, hi and welcome to the forum! We're glad you're here!

In my opinion, Ibogaine is not a substance to be tried unless you're absolutely desperate and have no more alternatives. It's a hallucinogenic like LSD and includes a lot of the same side effects and dangers. From what I gather, it actually changes your brain and the hope is that you come out the other side not craving your drug of choice. Since everyone's brain chemistry is different, it's very hard to predict how your brain will function after taking Ibogaine.

Crystal, what I'm trying to say is that this forum does not advocate the use of Ibogaine because there isn't any science-based evidence that it is safe or effective.

One thing to understand is that this is the thread of someone who has been trying to kick or at least mitigate his opiate addiction for a long time. Tee Jay has tried everything (apparently except Ibogaine) to get and stay sober. Suboxone, for various reasons, does not work well for him. His addiction problems are compounded by the fact that he is bipolar. He has also searched for drugs that help him with his bipolar symptoms and has had equal difficulty finding something that works long term.

(Tee Jay, I hope I'm not speaking out of turn or being inaccurate in any way. I just want to make sure that a new person reading this does not think that Ibogaine is necessarily an easy, safe, or a simple first line of defense in treating addiction.)

Amy

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 Post subject: Thank you Amy
PostPosted: Thu Apr 25, 2013 4:41 am 
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Amy thank you for explaining. That makes a lot of sense based on everyone's previous posts. I jumped in on a post that quite possibly is none of my business. I saw the topic and just wanted to offer a supportive word to someone that is struggling. I certainly didn't have any of the background information. Teejay I am new to all of this but I am so sorry that life is not being so good to you right now and I apologize for not minding my own business. I had only good intentions of offering good luck to you. I hope that you can find something that makes you feel better. Thanks again Amy for the clarification of Ibogaine treatment.
Crys


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 25, 2013 5:07 am 
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You're very welcome, Crys. But please don't feel like you posted somewhere you shouldn't post. Everything on the forum is public and open to everyone for posting. I'm glad that if you had a question, you went ahead and asked about it! You may be new, but you are valued here and we want you to feel welcome. :)

Amy

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 25, 2013 10:20 am 
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Hey guys...

Ibogaine is on the backburner for now. Seems I am going for a more conventional 32 rehab program. Yes I know I have spoken out about 30 day rehab programs in the past, and feel they are not long enough to get any long lasting progress. It is also a 12-step rehab, which will be interesting. However, since the passing of my mate, I have sorely missed talking to people (present company excluded) which I can talk to and relate to about my addiction and my mental illness. He was irreplaceable like that, and i really hope I can reach out into the rooms and find some people who I can talk to about my issues like I could with my mate.

The only other concern is that the head of the rehab program (who also happens to be my Sub doctor) may try and push Sub back onto me. This I would consider a BIG step backwards, considering I have been using morphine and diamorphine the last 3-4 weeks in order to get me off the buprenorphine. Unfortunately addiction by nature has caused me to use these drugs a lot longer than anticipated, but that's not bad consdiering it means that I will more likely only have to endure a 6-7 day detox. However, I fear that the rehab will use buprenorphine to detox me off the morphine. This is BAD BAD BAD. I have had a detox centre do this before, and what it does is it essentially resets the detox to a buprenorphine detox of 2-3 weeks. I just hope they will listen to me when I tell them, as I genuinely don't feel they have experience enough in this case to know exactly what happens in this situation.

Anyway, I'm really looking forward to being 100% clean off all opioids including buprenorphine, and cigarettes. The rehab is right around the corner from the swimming centre so I plan on swimming each day. I also feel that hte 2-3 years I spent on Suboxone has allowed me to experience a "normal" life, and I liked what I experienced, so I"m looking forward to experiencing it again.

Also, the girl I was seeing (the OTHER girl) is LONG GONE.. She was one wickid wickid evil woman who loved playing God with drugs. I remember before i said good bye, I told her how much of a scum bag I felt she really was for profiting off people's misery like she does, and that I could guarantee all her customers would say the same thing behind her back.

Anyway... teejay out. I won't be able to contact as much from rehab but I will try my best . Lots of love and stuff ... teejay


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 25, 2013 10:54 am 
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TJ - I'm so glad you're going to rehab. I just read your thread from the top, and quite frankly it scared the FUCK out of me. Going to detox for 21 days was the best decision I ever made. Just staying home and trying to do it ourselves gives us too much time in our heads and we keep changing the plan every few days (never for the better). I travelled 2000 miles to go to a detox that doesn't use Suboxone (couldn't find any in the NE US). But if you're going to a place that uses it and they try to give it to you FUCKING REFUSE IT! I refused all kinds of meds by the time I got to the end of my detox. They can't hold you down and shove it in your mouth. It's YOUR recovery.
I have 64 days Suboxone and opiate free right now - FREE being the key word. I feel SO much better than I did a month ago, but I'm not gonna lie, the seduction of wrapping myself in the warm blanket of opiates calls out to me every day. I handle it by going to meetings and talking honestly about where I'm at. And like any good addict, I can think of 101 criticisms of NA and the people in it...but I go there to get and give support to other addicts who want to stay clean. I don't go there to subscribe to any particular belief system - I go there to save my LIFE.
TJ - you are a kind, intelligent, compassionate person. You deserve to get out of the prison of Suboxone as well as save yourself from the suicide of opiate addiction. You CAN do both. But it's gonna be a full time job for a while. Forget about the uni for now, and forget about the business. Just plan on working on yourself and your recovery for the next several months. Believe it or not, 30 is still young. You have a long life ahead of you, and you're going to live it in recovery, and it's going to be awesome.
My thoughts and prayers are with you,
Lilly


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 25, 2013 3:43 pm 
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TJ, I'm hoping that this rehab is going to be the thing that works for you. You have been through so much, bless your heart, and I just want you to be able to live a happy, sustainable life. You have added so much to this forum and to me personally. I don't throw the word "prayer" around all the time (although maybe I should), but I will be praying for you that you are successful and happy. We will miss you, but we will be glad to miss you at the same time!

Hugs,

Amy

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PostPosted: Wed May 01, 2013 4:29 am 
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Got kicked out of rehab for "turning up with too many drugs in my body". Apparently I was breathing once every 25 seconds. I don't get it. Once upon a time it was normal to want to have one last hoorah before going in?

Nahh that wasn't just the case. After that incident, the doctor questioned my committment to the rehab... and over the next couple of days of doing some groups and stuff I decided it wasn't for me. Not because I wanted to use (which I did as an addict but that's not the reason for leaving) ... just because I've done it all before. I've done all the groups before, I've done all those breathing groups, those mindfulness, those morning walks and challening of behaviours. 3-4 years ago I woulda done LOTS of rehabs, short and long term. I don't wanna sound like a know-it-all, if anything more of a cynic. I just felt quite depressed and I felt like I'd somewhat moved "backwards" by being in there, when I'd spent a good part of the last 2-3 years (a) out of rehab (b) employed and studying and doing really well on Subxone. The whole time I was thinking "another 37 days of this" stuck in this grey lil 3rd floor hospital ward?

So at this stage no I'm not going back on Suboxone just yet. I am (gasp) going on a low dose of methadone. This will leave the door open to do Ibogaine (which looks more and more like it's going to happen) while at the same time not making it too difficult to return to Suboxone.

With the Ibogaine... To be honest I'm quite scared of the whole thing ... the concern it might induce bipolar etc ... but at this stage I gotta weigh up risks. I'm a nearly 30 year old heroin addict with a habit that's recently quadrupled in size, I'm back living at my mother's house after relations witih a housemate dissolved ... I'm not studying, but I'm working at least ... I also have the most fatal mental illness around . I just been kicked outta hospital .. I don't have much to lose! People may say "what about your life"? But a life continuation of what has been isn't much. Drastic measures...

So back to methadone we go. Where I'm from, methadone and Suboxone aren't that different. Both patients line up in the same queue, have the same little books and see the same doctors. BUT (all goes to plan) I will only be on methadone for 3-4 weeks anyway while my body purges itself more of the Suboxone...

Fuck this life thing eh??!


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PostPosted: Wed May 01, 2013 8:43 am 
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TeeJay,

OMG dude, you are scaring the shit out of me. I know I don't know you very well, I only joined here a year ago and was gone for a good portion of that. But I can't tell you how much you have helped me through your posts the past year. We are all battling a huge demon here, but I think you have it especially tough. You have had a run man...and I know lately it has been really crappy for you. But think about this, how much of an impact do you think you could have on a young addict who feels hopeless to overcome his addiction if he see's all you have been through and you are still standing on the other side of it? You are in a unique position to touch the lives of those people who have been through hell and have no hope.

I know that things seem pretty dark for you right now. But TeeJay, you are a caring, intelligent, STRONG, and wickedly funny guy! You know that old saying "It's always darkest just before the dawn"? How terrible would it be if you quit fighting because you couldn't see through the darkness, but your dawn is right there...so close you could touch it...and you never reach it because you quit trying. TeeJay, you deserve to reach your dawn.

Instead of thinking about the negative side of your situation think about it this way. If you can get stable in ANY kind of recovery you have NOTHING to hold you back. You are free to start any career you wish. You don't have any huge responsibilities to hold you back from chasing any dream you have. You don't have any baggage holding you back from finding that perfect girl for you. Who knows what is waiting for you just around the corner? You can pick up any time you want and chase any adventure that comes your way...do you know how many 30 something guys would love to have that kind of freedom? Who gives a crap whether you get there with methadone, ibogaine, suboxone, or whatever else you find that might help. I sure don't...

Please TeeJay, Don't give up. I know you are tired of fighting...but you are so special and so important to alot of us here. Keep fighting...

Jen


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PostPosted: Thu May 02, 2013 7:06 pm 
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Going from subs to meth or vice versa makes no differences to the the receptor sites, your still filling in long half life drugs, te outcome in regards to withdrawals and paws will be the same, not it would be different it was morphine or other shorter acting opiate. Suboxone takes several months to purge, adding methadone into the mix is not going to purge those receptors of half life opiate, it may increase it.

Doing Ibogaine when anybody is bi-polar or has any mental health issue is "DANGEROUS".. Specially considering methadone and suboxone into the receptors and body...I never met 1 person who claimed Ibogaine got them off suboxone albeit away from subs 3 months or direct from suboxone..You need minimum 6 months, same with methadone, well methadone you may only need 3-4 months... There have already been about 7 deaths in the last 9 months alone from Ibogaine, and these are the ones which some know about, God knows how many others, I also know 1 who ended up with brain damage, so caution must be maintained, particularly with health issues. When they did studies on rats they found out Ibogaine caused brain damage, don' forget there are people complaining of issues 1-3 years after doing Ibogaine, so who knows what damage it does long long term or to brain healing...

Please get checked out for heart and liver, blood, MRI scan and head to tore assessment. even a small infection anywhere in body can be lethal.. I would strongly advise 6-8 months clean from either methadone and suboxone for Ibogaine to even half work..I can post you links of tons of people who did Ibogaine from sub or meth and all claimed it was terrible and they felt bad for several months later, this is even with several low doses of Iboga after the initial flood dose, ask these people, research the true experiences, do strong hard long research, for your own benifit..

Naltrexone/in-patient is actually a better bet as it strips sub/meth from receptors, the Ibogaine does not, more side affects with Ibogaine then naltrexone, and side affects which can reach you 2-3 years later, so please be careful, especially with bi-polar and other health issues that you may or may not have, having said that even with all the necessarily rests it does not rule out death..


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PostPosted: Thu May 02, 2013 8:51 pm 
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Some of these things don't make any sense after light research of Ibogaine for opiate dependence.

There are plenty of folks that have been successful with Ibogaine to get off suboxone and methadone.

This is immediately after they go into withdrawal as well.

I don't know.

I just think that if we feel like it is something we need/want to do... We should do it.

Regardless of online stories or whatever. Just go for it if you feel like it is going to help you.

Just my opinion.


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PostPosted: Fri May 03, 2013 3:34 am 
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Scratch that... re-inducing on Suboxone tomorrow morning. Hopefully will be the end of a 3-odd month really difficult relapse. They only get worse. It's gotten to a point where my body officially rejects heroin. I can't have a hit without puking on the side-walk a couple of minutes beforehand. It's as if my body knows what's about to happen, hates it, but my brain just needs its thing?

While I've yet to induce and I'm not out of the dark, I really feel like this is it and it's time to return to the stability of Sub. I spent a while lastnight thinking about Ibogaine ... and the option is just too dangerous for someone with my psych history. First they expect me to stop taking my lithium, which is dangerous enough, then to go on perhaps the most powerful psychedelic drug around, and expect that I'll land all nice'n'easy? Last time I took acid I didn't land for weeks, when for most it's just a weekend ordeal.

The way I see it ... so what if my life's freedoms are impeded by being on Sub. The travel thing, the pharmacy thing. These are concessions I need to make to survive and thrive. Life really was quite good for a while. I was swimming, quit smoking, doing really well with study, went skydiving (arguably earrly in a relapse tho). Got my diving license. And it was all cos of the stability that my desire for recovery and being Sub afforded.

So I'm going to hand my life back to Sub for the foreseeable future, and hopefully we'll be seeing some implants coming our way that'll make things easier. Or they'll finally put some money into researching Ibogaine and isolate whatever part of it does its magic without making people trip balls. I won't give up hope that they'll come up with some better solutions, or at least I'll be afforded some more freedoms as a part of the program.

It's not like life on Sub is all that bad. It's not like being on Sub makes me incapable of finding a relationship, or working, or travelling (modestly). And now that my doctors put me on a MUCH tighter leash (single day dosing only no take-aways), I won't have to have gunk sitting in my mouth twice a day... just once. I was healthy. And that comes first. I'm 10kg's underweight and I'm a skinny-ish guy enough as it is. I really don't do heroin-addict well.

Time to embrace my obligatory night of hanging-out (or what you Americans say ... jonesing?) before returning to the Sub-flock.


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PostPosted: Fri May 03, 2013 6:35 am 
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Good job TJ,

I am so glad to hear you are going to give sub yet another try. I wish they would give you a little more freedom with it over there. I can understand being put out by having to go to the clinic every day...it would suck after awhile. But at least you will have your life back...remember, everyone has these ups and downs at times. Humans are such fickle creatures, especially us addicts. Just find what works for you the best and stick with it. I am sending good thoughts your way dude!


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PostPosted: Fri May 03, 2013 7:05 pm 
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Life is still much better without suboxone when it comes to emotions. interests, relationships, testosterone, thyroid etc...Even if people are ok on suboxone they are still not feeding in those real emotions, interests and motivations.. I understand many are chronic relapsers but indications have shown once you have knowledge about suboxone and been through withdrawals and PAWS then you have it in your heart to get clean and stay clean, and not take sober life for granted.

In regards to Ibogaine there are so many people who just simply fair due to still having suboxone and methadone in receptors, you need to be far away as possible from these substances before doing the Ibogaine, too many relapse because of PAWS and low mood after doing the Ibogaine, because the sub is in play, not to mention potential dangers to brain, body and health.. 6 months away from suboxone many providers are saying here, they have more experience in detoxing patients then what we addicts or sub patients know.. The wisdom behind this is not just let your receptors clear suboxone much as possible to to let you feel some reality, so you do not go into shock during the Ibogaine, the point of being several months away is for patients to feel in clearity vibes, to feel some sort of reality, emotions and some sort of healing, otherwise its a shock to your system and brain, thus brain damage is a real possibility...

Even then its no guarantee you will feel good, it's really all subjective, trial and error. Am not talking about internet stories but people I have actually met face to face, they are the ones who I count on giving a truthful experience, every single one said they wished they were far away from sub and meth as possible before doing the Ibogaine, many wished they had not done the Ibogaine because of the tripping part, scary experience like your near death and something which stays on you like a scar..

In regards to waiting for a something to make us feel great in the course of a day is unrealistic, am sorry thats unrealistic you have to play the piper, its attitude like that which makes people relapse or stay on drugs, if you want to get clean and lead a life of sobriety then you have to go through it some stage, there are only tools available but you yourself have to make the most of these tools, other then that the brain is not like a switch, it will take time, will power and guts to get to the other side...Just have to rise up and go through it if you want, if you can't or are simply waiting for something to turn your brain into a switch then am afraid you'd be stuck in a life of a glass ball.. There are little kids who know you have to play the piper at some stage and man up, rather then wait for something to take away symptoms and heal your brain in short space of time...The price we pay for picking up opiates it go through some withdrawals and PAWS at some stage...Simple as that.


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PostPosted: Mon May 06, 2013 7:59 am 
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Jesus, TJ, you're lucky to be alive. I think you are doing the right thing by going back on Suboxone. Sometimes we have to pick the lesser of two evils, and Suboxone sure as hell beats dying. Did you have your induction yet? Please post and let us know how it went. You have my love and support no matter what.
Lilly


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PostPosted: Mon May 06, 2013 10:30 am 
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In order to avoid the long drawn out withdrawal of suboxone u can't just switch to short acting opiats and quit....u have to take them for 6 months or a year to bridge the gap....otherwise ur gunna just gunna go through the awful short detox from normal opiats on top of the long grueling suboxone detox.....the whole point is to use them for a year and allow your brain to go back to a pre-suboxone state.....what you did sounds like a normal relapse.....


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PostPosted: Mon May 06, 2013 11:43 am 
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My god.

And using for a year isn't a relapse?

This is crazy. Absolutely crazy.

Why now does everyone think they can just use full agonists for long periods of time and stop with no issue.... As long as it's to get off suboxone of gourde. I mean obviously it's medically necessary.... Not an excuse to use full agonists at all.

This is going to kill people if these posts continue to reach other sick addicts.

You can't say for sure that you would only use a little bit just to get off over a year! You just can't. That's a long ass time! And. If full agonists are such a breeze, you should have just quit in the first place, not labeled yourself an addict, started suboxone, joined forums, and all that stuff.

I can't believe nobody sees how this is just addicts being addicts and not some genius idea. People WILL die trying this.

But noo. These addicts on her are different and can handle it. Doctors got them hooked. That means their stronger and what not.

Using for a year is using for a year. For an addict it's just as insane as saying you are all better now mentally /emotionally but in order to get better physically I have to go use opiates for a year. Big mistake. Bigger excuse.


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PostPosted: Mon May 06, 2013 12:31 pm 
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Yes have to agree with MM on this one. You can't take a full agonist unless you are supervised by a doctor and only if you are going into surgery. We are addicts. Why would an addict take full agonists again and have control now for 6 months to a year and stop?? During that time, they could OVERDOSE.!! Please...stay on suboxone and get on a dose that is right for you.


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