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PostPosted: Mon Apr 08, 2013 8:55 pm 
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Methadone is actually less of the 2 evils compared to suboxone...The sub sticks to your receptors much longer then methadone...Am sorry but 1 month is not going to be enough, many providers are into money and will say you only need 1 month, so they can make their money, or don't want you to find alternatives down the line, they will also claim post-Iboga that it's patients brain chemistry (result from PAWS and depression) and will not blame the short time away from sub, hence of saying you need only 1 month......I would seriously not trust those ones but the ones who claim you must be away from sub for 4 months minimum........I have talked to many many sub or ex-sub users who did Ibogaine and all claimed they wish they were away from sub for minimum 4 months to 6 months, many of them relapsed too because PAWS were too much...

According to some of the best providers first is to get to 0.25 of subs, stay there for many months to get rid much of the half life as possible, then take a short acting opiate for 4 months and over, then you may do the Ibogaine, again this is from a low dose sub and taper, with high doses of sub your best bet is 6 months and over. The longer your on sub the longer you must be away from sub prior to Ibogaine, or else it's a waste, dangerous and no benefit whatsoever.. These providers have done many sub detoxes or from sub to SAOs detoxes , and know what they are talking about.... Methadone protocol is similar but its totally different to the way it works compared to suboxone.. But many still suffer for a very long time after methadone/Ibogaine too..

Lastly doing a EKG and other tests is actually no guarantee you can come out alive, that's a risk we have to take..Many have died with perfect heart, liver and health. A EKG does not pick up everything neither do other tests...There have been total of 7 deaths in last 12 months alone, and that is the ones which are known, there are many more which are not known about...You have to sign a release form claiming you will not hold the provider responsible if you die or get any side affects i.e brain damage, thats the one am worried about most because several patients have claimed they do not feel right in the head months after Ibogaine and years after too.. I know one who ended up in mental institute post- Ibogaine, she had no mental health issues prior to Ibogaine..

I would rather trust providers who have done 30-50 sub detoxes including switching to short acting opiates, who claim 6 months and over after sub/pre-Ibogaine, then someone who only claims 1 month, that is actually insane, it takes 3 months for "some" sub to come out of the receptors, so to do Ibogaine only 1 month from sub is not just dangerous, but naive and setting up for failure..


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 08, 2013 11:12 pm 
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Keep going man. Everyone is different. Don't listen to doctor Debbie Downer above lol. It may take a month or it may take 10...byt you'll never know until you try. You seem like the kind of guy that could feel it out. But sheesh. What a negative shit show that was. To above... Have you ever detox ed from high dose methadone? That's a brave statement you made. How was you detox? Lemme guess.... Bad. Now everyone must have the same experience as you right? Idk. We are all different here. But. Methadone detox and suboxone detox.... Totally different..... Both bad in different ways.... But none mor than the other. In my opinion... Methadone is worse than suboxone for its own reasons.



Good luck.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 09, 2013 11:24 am 
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Methadone has been around for decades and studied, I agree the physical WDs may be worse from meth but duration of PAWS i.e depression, motivation etc last way longer with suboxone...You can wean down off methadone and can make a difference, but with subs thats not always the case, even with a wean...If you google around more folks make it to the other side from meth then sub...I'll be honest I have done methadone, though that was pshycally bad (didnt taper much) I felt fine after 2 months, didnt feel I got PAWS.

Many providers are also saying you can switch to methadone from sub in order to do Ibogaine, thats how difficult sub is to gauge from the receptors...Its not abot being a downer gut being truthful, am not saying everybody has exact same experience, but any long term sub user will tell you their symptoms last for a long time...Its not right giving folks false hope pretending everything is rosy...I just telll people what can be a possibility.

For me and many others you just don't feel right the longer your on sub, I become disinterested, unmotivated, depressed etc...There are also increasing cases where people feel some side affects 6 months down the line after stopping subs i.e PAWS-depression....

In my experience methadone withdrawals can be helped by comfort meds, and mentally its not that bad at all, but with sub they just last so long...

As for Ibogaine and suboxone-no benefit oif eliminating WDs.PAWS whatsoever, unless one has been away from sub for minimum 4 months... For example someone was 2 months clean from subs, did Iboga with a experience provider, felt wonderful for 2 weeks, then withdrawals creeped up, mainly PAWS, did small doses/boosters yet still felt very bad, and she was not the only one, so many have claimed the exact same experience, and now many honest decent providers are saying 4 months minimum on SAOs from sub prior to Ibogaine, and also its very dangerous to do it so quickly after stopping sub because your receptors will be confused and there is very high risk of heart and liver failure, not to mention brain damage..Thats why its imperative to be healthy as possible and far away as possible from sub prior to doing Ibogaine.

I have 10 months worth of short acting opiates, so I will use them for max 5 months or longer, then do Ibogaine...If you've only been on sub a short while then you may not need so much time away, but anybody whos been on sub for 3 years and over will ultimately need minimum 4-6 months clean from subs for Ibogaine to do something, and to give yourself the best chance possible...


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 12, 2013 5:44 am 
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Ibogaine's taken a back seat for the time being, if anything simply because of $$$ ... crazy!

Also it appears the clinic I was counting on to do naltrexone implants no longer does them, because they're too unreliable, prone to infection, their duration is too inconsistent etc. So seems naltrexone's off the cards. There is one doctor in town who still does naltrexone implants, but he's known as a bit of a renegade (one of my old doctors). I figure I can always have these things as a fall-back should shit get rough.

It's looking more and more like I'm going to be going back to NA / AA meetings, which I have mixed feelings about, especially since I enjoy the occasional social drink. But I guess what they don't know can't hurt em! I'd just hate to have some photos of me with a beer popping up on facebook and then have a bunch of peopel "tsk tsk" me when I ID as X days clean. Fuck em.

Anyway detox report. I am now completing day 1 of ZERO opioids. Yeah I know I spended a fair bit longer in the SAO phase of my treatment than expected. This had a lot to do with the company I was keeping, as it became really freaking obvious that it was impossible for either of us (namely me) to get clean in their presence. I fell for some kinda rescuing scenario that I deep down knew all along would never work.

So anyway I've basically grovelled to family to put me up for a lil while while I detox. All along they were questioning my rationale about getting off Sub. Why? You were doing so well? "But Mum, I was fucking depressed, wasn't attending uni and SOMETHING had to change. We'd fucked with every other variable to no avail so it's time to see how much the Sub was responsible..." That kinda shit.

Anyway my symptoms aren't that bad. I woulda been on morphine for 1-2 weeks, so hopefully I'll be experiencing a standard morphine detox of about 6 days, instead of 3x that for Suboxone. Comfort meds been prescribed for "home detox" are Clonidine, Tramadol and Clonazepam and Maxalon. Take cautiously and as needed as I've yet to have a real pill addiction, and don't hope to have one!

I decided to take a semester off uni because with all the shit that was going on I found myself wayyyy too far behind to catch up. This decision has caught up with me now though because once I hit post-detox, I'm gunna need some shit to do bad. Swimming yes, socialising yes (already I feel happy talking to people again!!) ... I'm thinking of starting my own business.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 12, 2013 9:41 am 
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Ah! Teejay! So much to say...

I'm right freakin there with you bud! Getting off of subs is such a huge life event right? WTF! I'm over 2 months into it, no subs. Shit is tough, but it does get better. Kinda like 2 steps forward, 1 step back. You just have to expect those bad days, or else they can really mess with you because you think you're just getting better! You can def do it.

Taking a semester off I can understand in this case. However, you hit the nail on the head with saying you'd def need to go back for something to do. YES. Absolutely. You got this man.

As im sure you already know.....Scolding hot baths, MUSIC music music. Massages (dr may be able to refer you to massage therapy) As soon as they started the message, I felt so good. Beyond normal. Such relief. Workout, even if its a walk. Drink a lot of fluids. Eat some grub. Get yer rocks off helps a lot. :wink: keep as busy a possible.

I took clonidine and visceral or w.e. and it helped. Clonidine helped my RLS and let me sleep. Dabbed into some Xanax, alcohol and adderall. I don't recommend that though.... ESP the Xanax and adderall :shock: oops.

Day 1, it's scary! But i promise they start adding up wicked quick! To say "70 something days" is mind blowing for me. I didn't think I'd see day 1!!! And after 5 years of being on subs! I'm so rooting for you! Wish you a speedy, healthy and comfortable as possible recovery.!!!

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 14, 2013 6:34 am 
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Okay day +2 no opioids. So far it just feels like a standard heroin / morphine detox, which is heartening. The comfort meds appear to be helping somewhat, though my plan to sleep through the whole week isn't happening as intended.

To be honest at the moment I'm shitting myself. I don't want to relapse, and I don't want to end up back on Suboxone or even worse, dead like my old mate. But at the same time I'm turning 30, and I don't want to spend the rest of my life on this crutch.

What I choose to do after detox is incredibly important. My plans are thus:

- Return to 12-step meetings (I know laugh at the irony all you want but they're all we've got!!!)
- Return to daily swimming, possibly even the gym.
- Return to counselling.
- Start my own business.

That should keep me busy over the next 4 months until uni returns.

So far symptoms? Pretty standard. Goosebumps, hair's standing up on its end, loss of appetite, nose dripping on the carpet, eyes tearing up, insomnia.

Interesting observation. When I was doing that MS-Contin assisted withdrawal thing, when the morphine would wear off I felt this overwhelming depression come over me. I do get the feeling that buprenorphine detox is far more moody than other opioids.

Anyway I'll keep you all posted.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 15, 2013 8:57 am 
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Hey teejay,

Hope day 3 is going for you so far..... Was thinking about you!!

Sounds like quite the plan.... I think that would keep ya busy for sure. Just make sure to put some "you" time in there, also! Be kind to yourself mate. I'm wishing you nothing but the best!

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 15, 2013 9:21 am 
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Thinking about you, Teejay. I'm hoping that you're successful in your attempt to get off everything. Keep pushing through!

Amy

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 15, 2013 9:59 am 
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Hey Teejay, I have to say after reading your postings you are one heck of a fighter! Here's hoping that today is better than yesterday! Best wishes!

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 15, 2013 12:38 pm 
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hey teejay!

Sounds like you have a great plan lined up. Keep posting if you can.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 19, 2013 2:04 am 
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I tellsya what this depression is fucking debilitating. Hmmmm.

Just want to stay in bed all day.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 19, 2013 6:14 am 
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Hey tj, been reading your posts fora year now. Have gone back and read some of the old one too. Just wanted to say I've learned alot from you and several others who have been around here awhile. All good people with tbey same problem.. just wanted to tell you to hang in there. Depression, it's the worst. Let me tells though, my 30s were some of tbey best years for me. Seems like everything came togather for me at 30.I'm mid 50 now . Didn't find opioids till I was 50.haha, jokes on me.. hopeing your plan works for you. Going back to step work should help,it has for me. Lots of meetings. Hard some nights. Tey business idea is Great too.. keep fighting bud,you have alot to live for man..


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 20, 2013 10:37 am 
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Thanks razor.

Stepped back somewhat today and ended up lapsing on morphine. Jasen (Ibogain guy) doesn't seem to have much of a problem with it as long as I don't use Suboxone ??!? What aa strange reversed world those people live in.

Anyway, given my insurance covers inpatient detox, I'm considering doing an inpatient detox this week. It will allow me to be fully detoxed off all opoids, so I canthen do my Ibogaine with a clearer head, and hopeflly be able to barter some $ down given I won't be doing it to do a rapid detox like other people/


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 Post subject: Tough Fight
PostPosted: Sat Apr 20, 2013 3:05 pm 
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I surely don't envy you TJ. Going into a detox is a great idea and maybe once you have it all out of your system you won't find the need to do the Ibogaine. Dude, I just don't trust that drug from what I've read. I guess you've heard different but it scares the crap out of me. That may be due to me having OD'd on LSD way back in the day and I lost two weeks of sanity.

You do what you need to do. Immerse yourself into recovery. I sure hope that depression goes away soon and you can see some daylight at the end of the tunnel.

Take Care my cyber friend,

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 21, 2013 7:44 am 
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Thanks Rule.

Fuck I wish the 12-steps worked for me... it's just I'm so darn scientific that the whole higher-power thing just doesn't sit well with me. It's my 1 stumbling block. In the past I managed to tap into my childhood Christian God thing but that was just ... weird. Maybe Ibogaine will hep me find my higher power.


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 Post subject: To tell the truth...
PostPosted: Sun Apr 21, 2013 2:15 pm 
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I too have a problem with the whole higher power thing but the 12 steps worked for me for my alcoholism. Here is what I found. When I was at the end of my rope, I gave up. Not to a higher power but to the booze. My life had been consumed with trying to control my drinking that one day I finally woke up and said "no more", in no more trying to control it. In my head I thought I was giving up to the alcohol. But what I found was a relief from the cravings of it and actually had it backwards. It's hard to explain TJ, it just happened.

What I did for the higher power thing was to use the group as mine. I knew the power of the group was more powerful than me. So in essence, it was a power GREATER than me. In my head I just turned everything over to the group and didn't worry about it. It was actually working the steps that saved me. I had so much guilty bullshit stored away that it needed to be written down and shared with another person. To actually tell someone the whole truth, nothing but the truth, so help me group? Yeh man, talk about scary shit. But I did it and felt a huge weight lifted off me. My old Catholic days of confession never helped because I held back the really bad stuff.

Amends were hard but not impossible. I did the best I could at the time and I still owe some people amends if I ever see them again. Then I started volunteering for the stuff my sponsor told me to do. Like going into mental hospitals, jails, etc. It worked. And it saved my life at the time. Today is another issue with opiate abuse. I've tried going back. But when I open my mouth and give a little history, I'm ignored. I think I'm viewed as an oldtimer who relapsed and they think I have all the answers. All I really need is a sponsor. Someone to watch my every move and tell me what to do. That's what's missing. Do you have someone? It makes a really big difference.

That's my 2¢ dude. Take what you like and leave the rest.

Hope you're starting to feel better.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 21, 2013 10:54 pm 
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Rule62, thank you so much for that last post.....it was just......wow, thank you!!!

TJ, I hope and pray you find what you're looking for, Bud.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 22, 2013 3:26 pm 
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Thanks Romeo,

I surely appreciate the kind words. You know as well as I just how sick we really are and how the steps can help with recovery.

Speaking of recovery. I deleted the last post made by Icaras. For those who read it I hope you'll agree that giving advice to take any full agonist opiates after stopping Suboxone is insanity. I do not want the new people to read that kind of message here. This is a RECOVERY forum. We do not advocate the use of any illicit or illegal drugs not prescribed by your physician. Plain and simple.

If anyone wants to suggest that form of recovery for someone, use the PM function here instead of posting for all to see.

Thanks,

Rule62

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 22, 2013 3:37 pm 
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Amen. This post should be on every thread right now. Awesome. Truly awesome.


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 Post subject: A little while later...
PostPosted: Mon Apr 22, 2013 4:18 pm 
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Thank You MM1,

There is another underlying reason I want to protect this forum from drifting the wrong way. Last year after my last surgery, and two weeks without Suboxone, my vampire addiction came roaring back. As hard as I tried to only take my pain meds as prescribed, I found myself taking 5-6 at a time, several times per day. So much for taking full agonist pain meds after getting Suboxone out your system. I was in full blown addiction again.

Lucky for me, I still had my Suboxone in the cupboard and got myself back on with enough to stop the cravings. 6 mg's. Been there ever since. Scared the crap out of me.

So yes, I guess you could say I'm biased towards recovery on Suboxone. It saved my life twice.

Sorry TeeJay for hijacking your thread. I turn it back over to you and your recovery. Hope today you're feeling a little bit better.

R62

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