It is currently Tue Oct 17, 2017 7:38 am



All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]


Our Sponsors





Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 24 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: 4 Mg FYI
PostPosted: Sat Apr 15, 2017 12:17 pm 
Offline
Moderator
Moderator
User avatar

Joined: Sun Jan 02, 2011 12:35 am
Posts: 2806
Location: Southwest
Not sure if this warrants its own topic but I thought it was worth mentioning.

Tapering from 6 mg's last year was fairly easy because my doctor prescribed me 3 boxes of the 2 mg films. Cutting those are really simple and we suggest them to those who are trying to taper down. (I am now at 1.67 mg's per day)

My concern was asking for the 4 mg films this time. I was hesitant thinking it would be more difficult to cut those down to a smaller size. I was trying to think of how to get back to the 2 mg ones again until I opened one of the packages up. I was worried about nothing. Instead of a stronger dose film, the company just put 2-2mg films together. Or they just didn't cut them. They look like a square film instead of the longer rectangle. So now I won't concern myself with asking for the 2's. The 4 mg films are just as easy to cut down from.

This is the information I am trying to get out there. If you are tapering from the 8 mg films, the 4 mg films are the most logical choice. You may not even need the 2 mg ones as they are the same thing. Just think about storage once you open it. Try to keep them as airtight as possible. Fairly easy to do.

That's it. Just a FYI for those who haven't tried the 4 mg films. I am one of the lucky ones that my insurance company still pays for the films and haven't forced me (yet) over to the generic tabs.

rule

_________________
Don't take yourself so damn seriously


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: 4 Mg FYI
PostPosted: Sat Apr 15, 2017 1:04 pm 
Offline
Long Time Member
Long Time Member

Joined: Sat Oct 29, 2016 9:34 pm
Posts: 614
Thanks, Rule. I'll file this away for when I get to that point. I'm at 7 mg now, or in that neighborhood as I'm snipping of about 1/8. I need to get one of those cutting boards or whatever they;re called so I can be more precise.

I tried approximately 6 the other day but woke up with some RSL, so I know that's too fast.

Congratulations on the 1.67. That's quite an accomplishment in my book.

Best,
Godfrey


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: 4 Mg FYI
PostPosted: Sat Apr 15, 2017 1:22 pm 
Offline
Moderator
Moderator
User avatar

Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2012 4:42 am
Posts: 4247
So, I get wanting to taper down. I went from 16mg to 3mg over a bunch of months back in 2012/13. I also understand that Rule is ready to perhaps go without buprenorphine. Godfrey, why are you tapering at this point?

Thanks for the info, Rule! It could be that it's cheaper to buy the 4mg size without compromising surface area. Good to know!

Amy

_________________
Done is better than perfect!


Top
 Profile  
 
Our Sponsors
 Post subject: Re: 4 Mg FYI
PostPosted: Sat Apr 15, 2017 5:55 pm 
Offline
Long Time Member
Long Time Member

Joined: Sat Oct 29, 2016 9:34 pm
Posts: 614
Well Amy since you ask, it's been about 5 months and I feel very stable. Most importantly I've had no cravings. Plus I'm 66 years old. The chances of needing surgery increase with each passing year.

Were I younger I might feel differently. Then again I might not. I can also add that it's not been difficult
to taper down so far. I started at 32 mg, then quickly dropped to 24, then 16, and a bit more slowly from there.

There's also my feeling, probably handed down from my father, that many things in life are tests. Or at least,
it's often a productive way of looking at things. I always want to feel as if I'm getting somewhere. So even though I get a social security check each month and recently read that it's something of a hate crime if some younger guy were to take a poke at me :D I still carry a stop watch when I go out for a run in the morning. I' m not dead until I'm dead, and as long as I'm not dead I want to be in competition with myself. Life is just more enjoyable for me that way.

So...I'm being honest here....that's all l by way of saying I want to see if i can do it. But that's a secondary reason. The prime reason is my age.

If along the way I encounter difficulties with my very slow taper, then I will certainly slow down even more.

So those are my reasons. What were yours?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: 4 Mg FYI
PostPosted: Sun Apr 16, 2017 4:41 am 
Offline
One Month or More
One Month or More

Joined: Sun Dec 04, 2016 8:39 pm
Posts: 36
Hi Godfrey
I hear you loud and clear and feel your fear of a clear and present danger with trepidation. I am not being flippant as i think the age factor and the possible/ inevitable health baggage that comes with age is a big issue for anyone over 50 regardless of current wellbeing cause to quote an ageless lyric '' no one gets out of here alive''.
I will keep my eyes on your path as mine is not dissimilar, i started 32mg, 24, 16 and 4 days ago down to 12mg and i hit 60 next year. I am scared, concerned and mapping my depature from Suboxone for the same reasons as you. Different history re doc's but i think we can all agree i/ you/ we are one hell of an addict.
Can i ask you at what dosage did you feel the push and pull? i am still ok at the 12mg mark and have been on sub for about 10 months. I am a stimulant addict primarily so never had the extreme love of opiates so i feel pretty confidant moving along down the dosage scale.
It seems the average dose to keep cravings at bay is 8/16mg so what is the subs doing at the lower doses. Can you verbalize what you feel or is it what you dont feel?
At 66 you have a lot of power Godfrey, you have a lot of love and you are an elder of this planet through your pain and journey. I can feel your power down here in Australia and it comes around and up through the earth back to you so you will continue to get stronger. Thanks man
ps well done rule62, sorry to slide off topic in your thread, i was going to start a thread re older age and subs but saw Godfreys post and jumped in.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: 4 Mg FYI
PostPosted: Sun Apr 16, 2017 10:57 am 
Offline
Long Time Member
Long Time Member

Joined: Sat Oct 29, 2016 9:34 pm
Posts: 614
Hey mikib

At 60 you're a mere stripling! I've got to say however, that time has begun to pass at an almost literally
unbelievable rate. I swear to God I was 60 about a year and a half ago.

And thank you for your very kind words. I just want to add that I don't think rule will mind. It's all to the greater good. Rule's been nothing but a good friend to me and I'm certain countless others.

As to your question, I'd say it's going to vary from person to person. But I felt the push and pull for the first time when I dropped to 6 from 8. 7 seems to be fine, but the last drop to 6 had me feeling a bit iffy
again. So I'm now officially into the more difficult terrain now. I've read the ceiling effect is in the 4 to 8 mg range depending on the person, so I seem to be on the higher end.

So, let's root each other on mikib and chart one another's progress and gain strength thereby. We old timers have to stick together...

Best wishes,
Godfrey.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: 4 Mg FYI
PostPosted: Sun Apr 16, 2017 5:19 pm 
Offline
Moderator
Moderator
User avatar

Joined: Sun Jan 02, 2011 12:35 am
Posts: 2806
Location: Southwest
Just to clear up some confusion. The reason I continue to taper down slowly is not because I want off the medication, it's because even small doses make me tired in the early afternoon if I'm trying to read. The last time I did this I got down to 1 mg and cannot remember if the drowsiness went away or not. Guess I'll find out and let you know. Being so low on dosage I must be below the ceiling. Can't say there are any cravings whatsoever so I guess that doesn't matter.

If I do end up off Suboxone it will be completely by chance and just happened. I have one other drug I need to get off of and that drives me nuts. The simple fact that I'm stuck is unheard of in my life of addiction. Meaning, I've quit most every bad habit there is to have. Now I've picked up one and haven't let it go. That is not like me at all. Life goes on and I'll keep fighting my demons.

My next drop will be to 1.50 mgs. I learned last time not to go from 2 mg to 1.50. Suffered a little w/d's and that's when you all told me to slow down to no more than 20% every couple of weeks. And another FYI. The longer you are on it (it seems to me), the less you can take. At least in my case it's true. The only time I ever felt w/d's was the above mentioned drop. Once I get below 1 mg, if I ever do, we'll see what happens.

rule

_________________
Don't take yourself so damn seriously


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: 4 Mg FYI
PostPosted: Sun Apr 16, 2017 6:22 pm 
Offline
Site Admin
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: Sun Feb 24, 2008 11:03 pm
Posts: 1546
I have to believe that those who can taper down, i.e. those who don't give in to the constant thought that 'i'd get a buzz if I took more', have a low risk of problems after stopping buprenorphine.

I've had a few patients each year who did the same, and they have done well since tapering off.

Good job!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: 4 Mg FYI
PostPosted: Sun Apr 16, 2017 9:13 pm 
Offline
One Month or More
One Month or More

Joined: Sun Dec 04, 2016 8:39 pm
Posts: 36
Cheers Godfrey
Isnt the process of living extrordinary the way it speeds up slows down depending where you are on its path. I was playing with my 9 month old grandson yesterday and had his father not been there i could easily have believed i was the father. The person in the mirror when i got home looked a little older though.
I'll be watching your path with good vibes.


Top
 Profile  
 
   
 Post subject: Re: 4 Mg FYI
PostPosted: Sun Apr 16, 2017 9:55 pm 
Offline
Long Time Member
Long Time Member

Joined: Sun Feb 14, 2016 9:40 pm
Posts: 658
Rule!!! Good post! Thank you. as you already know. I'm always ready to learn from you and always appreciate your posts. So here are the Suboxone film measurements:

2 mg/0.5 mg = 22.0 mm x 12.8 mm. SAME as the 8 mg film.

4 mg/1 mg = 2 times the length of the 8 mg/0.5 mg unit = 22.0 mm x 25.6 mm.
YES, would almost be a SQUARE!!! More surface area to cut up if tapering is the goal.

8 mg/2 mg = 22.0 mm x 12.8 mm OR the SAME size as the 2mg film

12 mg/3 mg = 1.5 times the length of the 8 mg/2 mg unit = 22.0 mm X 19.2

Best tonight! P

_________________
Did well on Suboxone. Stopped May 2011.
Stopping went well -- its the staying stopped -- where the real work begins.
Coming here 'keeps recovery green'.


Last edited by Pelican on Sun Apr 16, 2017 10:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: 4 Mg FYI
PostPosted: Sun Apr 16, 2017 10:38 pm 
Offline
Long Time Member
Long Time Member

Joined: Sun Feb 14, 2016 9:40 pm
Posts: 658
Dr J,
Like you said, I think there are some of us who can taper and stop and not look back. AND, I think there's folks, like me, who forgot to dose and then 5-6 days later, felt crappy, and dosed -- but then felt good and yet in the next 5-6 days again forgot to dose. After a few times of this -- just stopped. I did that for 4 wks bc I kept forgetting. For quite awhile, I was at 4mgs/day. I then forgot for ~5-6 days, then took 4 mg, felt much better, then forgot to dose in the next 5-6 days, and did that for another 4 -5 times.

Prior to coming here, I didn't know anything about bup except that I thought it was a comfort med, like clonidine and gabapentin. So at my next monthly appt, when I really complained to my bup Dr, that bup was weird, that i felt seriously tired. i mean seriously tired and crabby/crappy after 5-6 days on no bup and then felt better after taking a bup dose, she explained I was putting myself in and out of WD and to just stop, so I did. And it all went well. Actually went pretty well...

_________________
Did well on Suboxone. Stopped May 2011.
Stopping went well -- its the staying stopped -- where the real work begins.
Coming here 'keeps recovery green'.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: 4 Mg FYI
PostPosted: Sun Apr 16, 2017 11:30 pm 
Offline
Moderator
Moderator
User avatar

Joined: Sun Jan 02, 2011 12:35 am
Posts: 2806
Location: Southwest
That is pretty funny Pelican. To actually forget for several days is almost unheard of. I've forgotten to take it in the morning and just took it later in the day with no ill effects.

I hope Dr. Junig is correct about my tapering. If it is possible to get off it w/o worrying about cravings then that would be a good thing. Like my AA training taught me, One Day at a Time. No rushing with this medication or you're setting yourself up for failure. Just my observation.

Thanks for all the contributions you make on our forum. It allows me to not worry so much about how this place is doing. And of course our wonderful moderators and other members who keep this place a 5 star forum.

_________________
Don't take yourself so damn seriously


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: 4 Mg FYI
PostPosted: Mon Apr 17, 2017 1:01 am 
Offline
Moderator
Moderator
User avatar

Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2012 4:42 am
Posts: 4247
"I have to believe that those who can taper down, i.e. those who don't give in to the constant thought that 'i'd get a buzz if I took more', have a low risk of problems after stopping buprenorphine."

Hey. I'm not going to be disingenuous here and pretend that I don't know that you are referencing just a couple of our regulars, maybe giving them a nod that they are admirable addicts. At the same time, what you wrote stings. If I don't have the ability or desire to taper down like these guys, I'm jonesing for a buzz? You don't seem to be describing a symptom, but a character trait.

Godfrey, I'm sorry if you felt I put you on the spot. Our anonymity on this forum probably makes me more blunt about asking questions. I'm sure you're as stable as you think, but lest any uneducated sorts come along, I'll point out that the reason you are not feeling any cravings is because you are on a therapeutic dose (still) of buprenorphine.

I understand the fear of eventual surgeries. I am certainly not the arbiter of "reasons people taper off".

I will mention a concern of mine as a mod here and as a fellow poster. I see folks come here all the time who are, for whatever reason, not hooked up with a proper prescribing physician. They read what our awesome regulars say about buprenorphine induction and dosing. I see them decide to induct on 2mg and then complain that they are not feeling well. Sure! They haven't taken enough to cover their receptors.

Then it seems like every other person who comes to this forum properly inducted end up getting the idea that they should start to taper off right away. I'm part of the problem myself. I don't want people to believe that they should never start on buprenorphine, so I highlight the cases of the folks here who have tapered quite well to low numbers.

To say this another way, I'm afraid that this forum comes off as inconsistent sometimes. I would like it if, by our topics and our tone, we always came off in favor of an induction of 8 to 12mg until we are sure the receptors are saturated, at least a few months of stabilizing at that dose before tapering, and at least a couple of years of staying on a dose (not necessarily the original dose), coupled with tackling addiction issues with therapeutic intervention, before ever so slowly tapering to a microdose and stepping off by forgetting to take your dose here and there. That would be my goal.

However, we are individuals. We all take different paths and don't end up at the same place. Maybe it's unrealistic of me to think that we could send a more consistent message to new members. And it's not anyone's fault if we can't. I guess we just need to keep tackling each newbie one at a time.

I apologize if I am seeming to take anyone here to task. I am genuinely fond of all of our regulars, my fellow mods, and our founder. I'm sorry if my concern sounds like judgement.

Amy

_________________
Done is better than perfect!


Top
 Profile  
 
   
 Post subject: Re: 4 Mg FYI
PostPosted: Mon Apr 17, 2017 3:00 am 
Offline
Long Time Member
Long Time Member

Joined: Sun Feb 14, 2016 9:40 pm
Posts: 658
Hey all, on this I agree w Amy on Dr Js comment. Instead of addressing it, I went to my forgetting experience thinking it might show that folks stop for other reasons. I'm someone here who bc of bup, my life was saved/ turned around, did really well on it and stopping went well. I get that's unusual. So I'm careful when I post. I encourage starting and never push stopping - I don't want that ethical and moral liability. And I avoid strong arming the poster who wrongly says that bup is the problem and instead try to get folks to see the good...

I'm not well enough informed here or on addiction but my twitter and instagram feed blew up w the recent NYT chart of opioid deaths. MUCH higher than guns, car accidents HIV...thankfully, the posts were 90% positive for treatment.

So ya, w the deaths and life wreakage, its tough and sad out there...

Amy, one thing I'll say is that my folks and grandfolks say that as we age, we change, So if we could be at 20 who we are at 40, we'd rock. And if we could be at 40 who we are at 60 or 70, we'd own the world. Point is we change as we age bc - well -- we do. and needs change, including the increased surgeries and for pain relief after. They're not addicts and have no idea I'm here but yes, I hear this alot from thier group,

If you all come up w guidelines. that'd be great bc for ex, I'm always harping on induction posters to take more bup and stay on > 1-2 yrs let us know. Best always, P

_________________
Did well on Suboxone. Stopped May 2011.
Stopping went well -- its the staying stopped -- where the real work begins.
Coming here 'keeps recovery green'.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: 4 Mg FYI
PostPosted: Mon Apr 17, 2017 6:31 am 
Offline
One Month or More
One Month or More

Joined: Sun Dec 04, 2016 8:39 pm
Posts: 36
suboxdoc wrote:
I have to believe that those who can taper down, i.e. those who don't give in to the constant thought that 'i'd get a buzz if I took more', have a low risk of problems after stopping buprenorphine.

I've had a few patients each year who did the same, and they have done well since tapering off.

Good job!

I missed this on the first read for some reason so am really pleased to catch it now, thank you for posting it as it speaks to my journey.
Cheers Mikib
ps i didnt read Amy and Pelicans posts untill after i posted and then read the thread again, please no offence or disrespect intended. I dont know if the doc had me in mind with his post but i am taking the love and encouragement to make me even more focused in my new world.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: 4 Mg FYI
PostPosted: Mon Apr 17, 2017 12:58 pm 
Offline
Long Time Member
Long Time Member

Joined: Sat Oct 29, 2016 9:34 pm
Posts: 614
Thanks Mikib,

Yes, it is amazing. Truly. We've got the grandkids thing going to. Now that's a trip and a half!
My God they grow up fast, I think the speeding up of time as you age is one thing a person
almost has to be shocked by. I don't think it's possible to be prepared for it.

Just between you and I, I hate this getting old thing.. it seems I was young for so long...forever really.
My whole identification is as a young guy. I get caught up short every time I see my father looking back
at me whenever I make the mistake of looking in the mirror!

Godfrey


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: 4 Mg FYI
PostPosted: Mon Apr 17, 2017 5:24 pm 
Offline
Moderator
Moderator
User avatar

Joined: Sun Jan 02, 2011 12:35 am
Posts: 2806
Location: Southwest
Godfrey, as much as I like you, please stop with the getting old talk. (wink, wink) You and I are just about the same age and when I look at recent pictures or see a video of me taken several years ago I wonder "who is that old person?" Like you, both my wife and I feel and act like young people. My wife's best friend is 27. Just rib'n you my friend. No one likes getting old but hey, here we are and there's nothing we can do about it.

Amy, I can see where you got a bit offended by Dr. J's remark. But he used it as an "Ei", or for example. Meaning, IMO, he was just referencing one particular personality trait and didn't broad brush all of us.

And yes, this forum is inconsistent and will always be. Why? Because we learn as we go along. Go back and read the way we talked 3-5 years ago and you'll see our mindset was completely different. What makes this place so wonderful is the diversity of all us addicts. So many of us react differently to situations. We also change as we go along. My story is all over the map. Started on 24 mg's, tapered down to 1 mg after a year. Had major surgery and then only felt comfortable on 6 mg's for close to 5 years. Explain that behavior! Then pop, I get it in my head to taper again and find it very easy. For me at least, not for you or anyone else.

Just another point of view. Mine is no more valid than anyone else's here. This forum is a mirror of the world we live in and how we manage day to day on or off Suboxone. Our common goal is to save lives and keep sane doing it. This place also gives me peace of mind that I find no where else concerning my addictive behavior. We all have our own reasons for being here.

Peace - Out (sorry, had to say that to feel young)

_________________
Don't take yourself so damn seriously


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: 4 Mg FYI
PostPosted: Mon Apr 17, 2017 7:54 pm 
Offline
Moderator
Moderator
User avatar

Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2012 4:42 am
Posts: 4247
"i.e." means "in other words" or direct from the Latin id est "that is".

"e.g." means "for example".

So, Rule, you may be correct in thinking that he thought he was saying "for example", but he wasn't.

That's why I addressed him, because only he knows what he meant. And because he can speak for himself.

But there's a big difference between saying,

"I have to believe that those who can taper down, in other words those who don't give in to the constant thought that 'i'd get a buzz if I took more', have a low risk of problems after stopping buprenorphine."

AND

"I have to believe that those who can taper down, for example those who don't give in to the constant thought that 'i'd get a buzz if I took more', have a low risk of problems after stopping buprenorphine."

So, yah, I think a clarification is in order.

And I think, like Pelican said, that we should be able to come up with some basic induction guidelines, maintenance guideline, tapering guidelines, and detox guidelines, that are at least consistent among the mods. We could use the guidelines that Dr. Junig uses for his practices. But we could post the guidelines permanently, so we have something to refer newbies to. I think that would be really helpful.

Amy

_________________
Done is better than perfect!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: 4 Mg FYI
PostPosted: Mon Apr 17, 2017 11:56 pm 
Offline
One Month or More
One Month or More

Joined: Sun Dec 04, 2016 8:39 pm
Posts: 36
Hey Godfrey
You have hit me hard and sweet i am gasping for air between bouts of laughter ( i could of said lol but ...)
I recently purchased some escrima sticks and started practising with the help of youtube and was really feeling the power for a week or so now i am really feeling my right shoulder in the morning because its somewhat frozen.
Teach an old dog new tricks ? not too sure about that.
Take care


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: 4 Mg FYI
PostPosted: Tue Apr 18, 2017 2:22 am 
Offline
Super Poster
Super Poster

Joined: Fri Jul 24, 2009 10:45 pm
Posts: 136
Great discussion. Amy, you are an inspiration for us all and it saddens me that you feel criticized. A good reminder that being on a low dose or tapering does not make a person a saint. I will keep in mind that other addicts, especially newcomers, are appropriately taking doses of buprenorphine of 16 mg a day or more. For them this is a huge step away from active addiction, and usually the best decision they have made in a long time. As an "old timer" ( eleven years), I will try to always balance any posts regarding tapering or my dose with a qualifier that I started at 16 mg when I started buprenorphine, that I have tapered very slowly, with medical supervision, and I am prepared to increase my dose if needed.
I take generic buprenorphine/naloxone tablets and am very satisfied with them. This is fortunate as Suboxone strips are not covered by my insurance company. IF I ever choose to taper completely off buprenorphine, I would switch to the films below 1/2 a mg. Good to know that the 4 mg films would be as easy to cut into small pieces as the 2 mg films.


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 24 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next

All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Our Sponsors
Suboxone Forum latest topics RSS feed Subscribe to the entire forum
 

 

 
Fond Du Lac Psychiatry
Dr. Jeffrey Junig, M.D., Ph.D.

  • Board Certified Psychiatrist
  • Asst Clinical Professor, Medical College of Wisconsin

Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group