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PostPosted: Sun Mar 09, 2008 9:20 pm 
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This question was posted by Toad at [url]Suboxonetalkzone.com[/url] . My reply comes from there as well.

Toad Says:
March 9, 2008 at 9:37 pm

Well I have been addicted to pain killers since about 2002. I went into a rehab and they took me off Klonopin in a week which landed me in the hospital.
I continued using as what eveyone says, it made me feel good as I have depression and this is the only thing that would actually give me feelings.
I have been on Suboxone now for 6 months and it is a great medication.
I lost my job and decided to drastically cut down on my suboxone and got a script of pain killers to have one more bout of fun.
It has been a week now and I dont even feel the pain killers- no euphoria, nothing. I wonder why? Anyway, I guess I will stop and continue my suboxone tomorrow- hopefully 24 hrs is ok. I am weaning off anyway and have a 60 day supply. I wonder if the suboxone can be blocking this long or if I just dont get the enjoyment out of the painkillers for some reason.
I guess it was stupid to do this, but I have heard of people having problems coming off suboxone and tapering with pain killers.
I guess this is what I was going to try and do 80 vics later. I hope nobody else does this as it is a great medication and if you want to get sober, this is it. Good luck and any replies would be appreciated.


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 Post subject: Playing with fire
PostPosted: Sun Mar 09, 2008 9:22 pm 
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March 9, 2008 at 10:24 pm

Thank you for writing. Please consider cutting and pasting your comments at http://suboxforum.com also, as there are more people reading things there.

I don’t have a certain answer to the lack of euphoria, except to say that I have heard the same thing from at least 5 other people after similar periods of time. The most obvious answer is that either the suboxone is still around (it is highly protein-bound, but 7 days is a long time!) or your tolerance has become higher (unlikely, because after 7 days of sobriety it would have come down a bit, plus I have heard the comments even after very large doses of oxycodone).

It is very dangerous to take high doses of opiate agonists (vicodin, oxy, methadone, morphine, etc are all agonists) to overcome the blockade by antagonists like narcan or naltrexone, or agonist/antagonists like buprenorphine. It is done in hospitals if needed, say to do surgery on a person on an opiate blocker. But without close monitoring there is significant risk of respiratory depression and death. There are a number of ways that things can go wrong; one example is based on something called the ‘entero-hepatic cycle’. Some opiates get take out of circulation by the liver, and dumped into the intestine along with bile. As this dumped opiate moves down the intestine, it can get re-absorbed days later from the distal small bowel. In the case of a person on an opiate blocker, let’s say that the person takes a huge dose of opiate and gets a small high because of the blocker. The opiate gets dumped into the intestine, and then 2 days later, after the blocker has worn off, the patient has become constipated from the high opiate dose– the delayed passage through the intestine caused by the constipation allows a large amount of the opiate to be taken back up into the circulation. This could now be enough to cause death, especially if the person is taking other depressants like alcohol or Xanax.

Many times antidepressants are given either by people who don’t specialize in psychiatry, or by psychiatrists who don’t take the time to ‘get it right’. It is rare to have a depression that will only respond to opiates (but not unheard of). I encourage you to try a different doctor and find something that gets you feeling better. We have so many choices nowadays that depression is almost always treatable.


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 Post subject: question for you Doc
PostPosted: Mon Mar 10, 2008 8:53 am 
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I read your reply to Toad that suboxone is highly protein bound. When I was in the methadone forum and already detoxed off everything with the help of a high protein, Amino acid diet, I kept hearing methadone can store in the fatty tissues for years to come. I have lost a lot of fat, on my present diet and with exercise. Is there truth to that? Does methadone store in the fat cells? Also Good Luck to you Toad, and embarking on a new lifestyle. The though of being high doesn't appeal to me, which I am thankful for, I guess the memories of a painful withdrawal are too fresh in my mind, and just feeling OK is more than enough for me right now. But I'm probably much older than you. Gods speed Toad :)

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 10, 2008 9:15 pm 
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Thank you.

Today I took a total of 6mg of subox. It was 24 hours after my last pain pill. I was going to just try and stick it out and not go back on the subox, but of course you will do anything not to feel sick.

I felt ok all day today until now. I feel really nauseus and like I am going to throw up. I am not sick to my stomach and just went to the store. I guess this might be precipitated withdrawal or whatever. I assume tomorrow I will be better.

I have about 90 pills of suboxone in different mgs. I will be moving to Europe and will taper off there. Again, I believe that this will be much harder to come off of than regular opiates as it is sooooo strong. Thats basically why I decided to stop and go back to the opiates to try and stop that way and get a high to tell the truth. That didnt work.


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 Post subject: Farewell Toad
PostPosted: Tue Mar 11, 2008 8:53 am 
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Toad I wish you so much luck. Just listen from experience. Right now it sounds like your trying to do the right thing by going back to a low dose of suboxone. It is our own fear that keeps us from detoxing. Right now you are in the mindset, that taking the sub and slowly tapering is the right thing to do, and I agree. When all is said and done and you are safely detoxed off, remember your natural endorphins will return and true happiness can be achieved in simple things like exercise and family life. Don't look for that false euphoria that drugs brings to you. It only brings heartbreak and misery to your family and yourself. Take the info the Doc has given you and use it as a tool to get well, just for you. You will be most surprised at the impact it will have on the rest of your life. I hope you can post from Europe and let us know how you are. I wish you nothing but good success and luck, You and your family are in my prayers. Masuka :wink:

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 Post subject: still messing around
PostPosted: Mon Mar 17, 2008 10:03 am 
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When you decide to quit, I would do a long slow taper and get down to .25mgs. I have read all the scare stories that sub is harder to come off. I've done cold turkey detox off oxy and morphine. Last summer I quit for five days and had minor issues. For me attitude was everything.
Good luck.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 19, 2008 10:34 pm 
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I want to quit. After I started back on the pain killers 7 days later I still wasnt feeling anything.

I went back to the suboxone like I said in the previous message and stayed at 2mgs after that initial 6mgs. I had no problems at that dose at all.

I stopped the 2mgs 3 days ago and I am going through withdrawals like I would with opiates, but not as bad, but bad enough for me to be very very depressed, emotional - calling the wife and saying that I am worthless and sick.

I have quite a bit of suboxone- 8mg tablets and around 60 2mg tablets. I am not sure how to get to the .25mgs from the 2mg tablets as they are already so small.

Tonight I started back on what I had left of the pain killers and felt something for about 30 minutes.

I will not be getting anymore suboxone so after my last 18 pills of vicoprofin I am going back to the suboxone again- round and round we go. I am so tired of being depressed. I lost every job I had and our only resort is to go to another country where they take care of you if you are unemployed.

I have been to many many psychiatrists = pretty much was called a doctor shopper by them because none of them could give me anything that would stop my depression. We have very good doctors here and I think that my neurotransmitters were so shot that nothing would work on me. Thats when I turned to 6 months of maintenance with the suboxone.

At one time I felt pretty good on Paxil but that is gone and like I said pain killers are the only thing that gives me emotions and not depressed- except for now.

These doctors need to make a medication that is similar to pain killers or Xtacy as that worked wonderfully when I was a teenager and was depressed.

This is only a minor problem. I have valium to come off of also and that makes withdrawal from painkillers look like a cakewalk. Try being in constant cramping position for days and days and not sleeping for weeks and then having brain zaps so bad you threw whatever is in your hands.

That is my next med to get off of. Just a day in the life of me. College Degree, Ex-Military, Civil Servant Job at NASA- GONE. I still have my wife and kids so I will be fine.


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 Post subject: No euphoria w/vics
PostPosted: Sat Mar 22, 2008 5:20 am 
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Hi Toad, I'm new here. That is so weird about no buzz w/ vicodin. I have been on Suboxone for about 2 years now. It's the best thing since sliced bread for me. I have been a heroin addict forever it seems. But, I have purposely gone off the Suboxone so I could get high, either on heroin, or vicodin. The same thing happens w/ me. When I take Vicodin initially, i get a buzz, but only the first time I take it. After that, I feel nothing. No euphoria what so ever. As far as heroin, it just seems like a waste of money. I never seem to get a good buzz. It is so strange to me. I wait until the Suboxone has left my system, before I take any kind of opiate, but it just doesn't seem to work. I wish I could figure it out. But, I guess it is a good thing. I don't know what I would do without the Suboxone. I'm sure I'd be dead. Thanks for this forum. I am glad I found it. Dotparker


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 Post subject: For the record...
PostPosted: Sun Mar 23, 2008 7:33 pm 
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As the manager of this board and a prescriber of suboxone, I have to strongly recommend that people AVOID 'playing around'. The practice only keeps a person in the cycle of use, and the person never gets the needed experience in facing life 'on life's terms'.

It is also quite dangerous to relapse-- that is, after all, when bad things happen. During relapse, tolerance is less predictable, and mistakes can be lethal. Use during relapses is also more 'driven' and impulsive than it was during the initial use.

Opiates provide a good buzz-- I have to admit to that. But it isn't worth dying over.


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 Post subject: playing around
PostPosted: Sun Mar 23, 2008 7:45 pm 
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I'm sorry Doc, I didn't mean to leave the impression that I regularly try to get high. I don't. It is just strange to me that since I have been on Suboxone, the two times I have messed up and gone off the Suboxone, neither Vicodin or heroin had any effect on me. I wasn't looking for advice on how to get high or anything. I just am really curious as to why it is that the naloxone continued to be effective even after it had been out of my system for a long time. Do you have any knowledge about that? Thanks so much for this forum. I really do appreciate it. Sincerely, Dotparker


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 24, 2008 6:54 pm 
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Thanks for your reply Dot. Yeah, I didnt feel anything this past week back on the opiates. Just kinda felt like I was on the suboxone again.
My last dose I took was yesterday in the morning and I was an ass all day after that as I came down and didnt have anything to take.

I think it is plain rediculous that they cant make a med that makes you feel the way we feel on the medication (illegal or not). They have it, but we will never get it because they think we will abuse it. Maybe in Europe I will find something that helps me as I heard they are more liberal in what they prescribe.

Today I started back on the suboxone and I am at 8mgs and I will taper over the next week down to hopefully nothing.

I dont care what people say, it is stronger than the opiates we take and is in your system longer and also will cause worse withdrawal symptoms for some.

Whether you choose to come off the opiates or suboxone your gonna have problems and this morning I was debating not going back on the suboxone but just cold turkeying the opiates like I have a million times before. I gave in and feel ok, but very hyper and anxious.

You have nothing to be sorry about in your posting by the way, that is what this is for. The doc is right in what he said but we shouldnt be ashamed about writing what we are doing.

Thanks

Eric


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 01, 2009 11:28 pm 
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Hey Toad, how are you doing? How is Europe treating you?


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