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PostPosted: Sun Dec 25, 2011 11:37 am 
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Redemption - you might want to go through some of our "stopping suboxone" threads, especially the liquid taper thread. Diary of a Quitter is a great example of just one person who was on sub for a couple years and did a very slow taper and had zero issues coming off of it and very few issues with PAWS. She's still on this forum (as a moderator) and i'm sure she'll answer any questions you might have. But plenty of people taper off suboxone just fine. The trick is a long, slow, low taper and that will reduce the severity of both acute AND post-acute withdrawals. Yes, everyone is different, but keep in mind, the horror stories that you hear online are the ones who normally bitch the loudest. The people who succeed are out there living their lives and don't feel the need to go online and bitch when they're doing well and happy.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 25, 2011 12:18 pm 
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Umm, no Kevin. Opioids are agonists at the MU receptors and ANTAGONISTS at the Kappa receptors. If you're going to criticize, do your homework.

Secondly, the poster states he jumped from .06 mgs, not .6 mgs. Makes a little difference. Here's another point to consider. .06 mgs. of bupe (1/16 of a mg.) is roughly equivalent to 1 mg. of hydrocodone. Yes, thats 1/5 of a 5 mg. Vicodin. If you have clinical evidence of someone developing SIGNIFICANT opioid dependence on 1 mg of hydro, I'd love to see it.

Excellent point Hatmaker.


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 25, 2011 1:03 pm 
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I would also like to add Laddertipper to the list of people to look up. I believe she was on sub for almost 6 years and had minor withdrawl. I think she tapered down to .06, it's in her thread.

Everyone does have a different experience and some are easier than others but I have seen quite a few people come thru here that were on long term sub treatment and got off relatively pain free with a long and low taper.

Hat is also correct in the fact that people that got off sub and are doing well will not be seeking internet forums as much as someone having a hard time. It's just like having a bad experience at a restaurant, people will likely tell everyone they come across about the horrible service they received but never mentioned the 20 times you had been there prior when the service was good.


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 25, 2011 4:01 pm 
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Redemption wrote:
I just don't get why some sufffer and others do not. Ive seen people first hand who struggle for months after a similar taper of the original poster or basically tapers which are long and slow.. Staying on a low dose for several months is still accumlating the bup isn't it? I knew someone who stayed on 0.2 temgesics for 2 months and suffered through hell for 1 year, yes 1 year. She had no pshycloogical issues, no history of depression or anxiety and not much history with opiates/drugs either. I too struggle to see people get off bup and stay clean. I can't imagine how the long term users do it I really dont. Many claim for them it didnt matter what dose they jumped from they did not feel any difference, the withdrawals and PAWS were still intense and drawn out. The half life is the main problem with bup, thats what brings us down regardless if the taper is long and dose is a tiny crumb. Am not dismissing internet stories but I honestly do not see many people outside the internet claim to have a doable time getting off sub, whether its a long taper or a long term user or not, they still struggle to get off bup and stay clean. Its only 1 or 2 success stories I see on the net and they mostly consist people who were only on sub couple of weeks or 2 months.


Okay, I do understand why you think this. During my super long taper, I read so many stories of people who dropped to .5 or lower and still had a super tough time jumping. That was so discouraging to me. I was expecting the absolute worst and questioning whether tapering was worth it at all. Like I said, I tried jumping from other doses, some pretty low, but I woke up in the middle of the night having the worst anxiety I've ever had, sweating, chills, miserable....just bad. I could not deal with that, so I just kept tapering and held out just a bit of hope that it would pay off if I got down to the tiniest piece that I was willing to cut those films.

I went through some pretty rough and frustrating times while still tapering. At 1 mg, I had RLS and painful legs for months and had to stop dropping for a while. This experience was such a friggin' shock! I mean, I could drop 8 mg or more at a time at high doses, but going from 1.25 to 1 mg was actually a challenge. It made no logical sense. I questioned how it could be possible or whether I was crazy. It was a huge mental struggle. AND I was too stubborn to just increase my dose a tiny bit and give it more time.

However, eventually, the symptoms would always let up and I was always able to drop again. If I'd been willing to give it as long as my body wanted, it may have taken me two years, but I really could have done it painlessly. I swear on my life and on my kids, when I jumped, I expected another onslaught of anxiety and chills and sweats and RLS, but it NEVER HAPPENED. I'd tapered to 1/16 and it was low enough that jumping was a cinch. .25 mg was too high for my body, but 1/16 was perfect. Everyone is different. I took Sub nearly 6 years.

I do have PAWS. I have pretty significant symptoms today, but I know why. I ate tons of sugar and dairy yesterday and that gives me instant symptoms. I get chills, sweats, cold hands and feet, and sneezing. None of them are severe at all, but they are present. Thankfully, I can avoid them if I make smarter choices.

I wouldn't ever claim that it is easy to get off Sub. It's not, but the mental part is the biggest challenge. First, you have to accept that you can't stick to a preplanned schedule. You may have to take much longer than you'd like. It is not easy to do this, because we all like to control how stuff goes, but this is not something we can completely control. Second, you have to be diligent about your dosing and not take extra here and there, yet you have to know when you pushed too hard and need to go up just a tiny bit. This is a huge exercise in self-control, and if you can succeed at it, it feels amazing. Third, you have to learn to be pleased with progress and not be completely focused on the destination. Fourth, you have to give fear the middle finger. Fear is the worst part of this whole experience. Fear that it will be bad no matter how low you go; fear your brain is damaged; fear the symptoms will never end; etc. Fear does no good whatsoever. If you can believe it will work in the end, and in the meantime, you choose to keep it at a level where you can live a full life and not focus on your taper, you will make it and it won't be bad! Most of these things, I learned through being so afraid myself and obsessing on all the what-ifs. I absolutely made it ten times harder than it had to be. I just hope someone can learn from that and not make it harder than it needs be.

LT

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 25, 2011 6:01 pm 
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Umm, no Kevin. Opioids are agonists at the MU receptors and ANTAGONISTS at the Kappa receptors. If you're going to criticize, do your homework.

Secondly, the poster states he jumped from .06 mgs, not .6 mgs. Makes a little difference. Here's another point to consider. .06 mgs. of bupe (1/16 of a mg.) is roughly equivalent to 1 mg. of hydrocodone. Yes, thats 1/5 of a 5 mg. Vicodin. If you have clinical evidence of someone developing SIGNIFICANT opioid dependence on 1 mg of hydro, I'd love to see it.


Oops, typed without absorbing what I was reading fully; I'll admit that I was mostly lashing out at what I thought was a condescending attitude. You are right, buprenorphine is indeed a K-opioid ANTAGONIST. I also thought that the OP 'jumped' from .6mg and not .06mg. I still agree that 'jumping' from ANY mg is not right or wrong, it's just a very individual thing. Buprenorphine is a very potent opioid either way, though I'm not sure about the equianalgesic .06mg buprenorphine conversion. My name is Travis, though, not close to Kevin. Sorry, I angered you to the point that you didn't answer the one question I asked: How and when did you titrate from buprenorphine? Meaning, more or less: HAVE YOU titrated from buprenorphine? (Y/N) If Y, explain the process.

-Travis


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 25, 2011 11:26 pm 
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Yes, snd I jumped at .25 mgs. I had mild withdrawal but I never expected it to be pain-free. Was still easier than hydro withdrawal for me.


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 Post subject: Why all the issues?
PostPosted: Fri Dec 30, 2011 2:26 pm 
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Why all the defensiveness? All our stories are different and really the only common consistent thread I see is we suffer from addiction. Does it really matter who jumped off what and felt what when and how much so much that it becomes a personal attack? And...I mean this to Golden1and no one else as this is where all the dissension started. I know it is very important that we try to relay the best message we can to others that need to know “the truth” of what to expect, but the truth can be different for each and everyone. And all we do by condescension and/or minimizing someone’s experience is confuse the person that is looking for answers. I use to wonder why moderator’s would even be a necessity and it’s times like this that I see they are. I think broncofan is due congratulations not condescension. And by that I don’t mean this Quote: “Congratulations. It would seem that after four posts not ONE person gets the point I'm trying to make. I think you have your mind so made up that you don't even READ them.” The reason no-one is getting your point, is because no-one can get past the attitude so prevalent in your posts. It might be nice to give us your success story, your way and let the individuals decide whether they do it your way or bronco’s way. We love options that is why a lot of us are here searching all these post for a way to make our own. I really have tried not to respond to this thread as not to compound or complicate it any further than already done, but I feel the need to personally congratulate Broncofan and re-inforce what the majority is ruling here that we do not have to attack, humiliate, degrade etc…to get a point across. And secondly invite you to tell us how you did it so we have another perspective to go by evidenced by your success not your calling someone down for the way they did it.

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 Post subject: Bronco fan and taper
PostPosted: Sat Jan 07, 2012 3:50 am 
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Congratulations Broncofan. SO SO Happy for you!!! I am in the middle of my taper and have a ways to go, but it is going so much better since I switched from the film to the tabs. I developed an allergy to the film so I have to use the tab. So, I am down to 6 mg and taking .5 mg away every 2-3 weeks and so far it's going well. I'm sure when I get below the ceiling it will get harder. How many weeks did you space your dose decreases apart? Also, if I can't use the film I imagine I'll have to use the liquid method with the tabs. Do you have any other suggestions?
You sure give us confidence that with steady patience we can get it done.
Thanks again,
Anita

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 Post subject: Update
PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2012 1:21 pm 
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Just wanted to give an update, I think I'm at about 30 days or so off, and I'm feeling great. While I don't feel 100%, I'd say I'm in the 90's, still haven't lost a night of sleep, no sweats, no agitation to speak of, and haven't needed clonidine or anything else for several weeks.

GLEEEE!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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 Post subject: Great to hear
PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2012 11:05 pm 
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That is so great. I am so glad for you. Now what you gonna do for yourself. Any relapse prevention in mind? Like they say just don't pick up not even one time and you will stay clean never to return to all you have been thru.

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 Post subject: 30 days
PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2012 7:54 am 
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Don't give addiction a chance, to get back in broncofan. Stay strong through the hard times and watchful in the good times.
As Tebow would say "Keep the Faith Man",,,Good luck in the play offs!


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 Post subject: goldenboy
PostPosted: Sun Jan 15, 2012 4:13 pm 
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I have been observing the comments. You asked if someone can be addicted to 1mg of hydrocodone.
You did not put this in the proper context- not to mention it is very difficult to make bupe conversions- as bupe
is powerful on a weight basis, and an entirely different opiate from hydro.
Context- the question to ask is, if someone having been addicted to hydrocodone for the time indicated, would
1mg have any effect insofar as physical addiction? Yes it is possible. Do you understand how the endogenous opiate system works on individuals that are not opiate addicted? How it is shut down on opiate addicted individuals? I will not go into it-read about it- but 1mg of hydro is far more opiate than the endogenous system.
Again-one has to take into consideration that you have to compare someone having been addicted at high doses to hydro and go down to 1mg for your comparison to apply. .....BUT you cannot compare hydro to bupe! Bupe is still not a well understood molecule relating to the bodies endogenous opiate system. Partials are odd molecules for mu
You also seem to make reference to people jumping off bupe as far easier than other opiates. One has to consider many things before making such a statement. Was the bupe/sub used as initially intended -as a detox drug? 8-16mg, reducing usually within 4 days-7days? Yes, then it is easy to come off of bupe, and it makes coming off of H or whatever much easier. It is a miracle used in this way. Sub Maintenance? If so for how long? Age of person. I have my own story..
Your calculations do not represent the nature of bupe- bupe was initially used at 200 ug injectable and patches that released
small amounts- for accute pain. Do the math- .06mg is small- but not insignificant. Later, experiments with what was called "High Dose Bupren" for opiate dependant individuals. All this to say that even 60ug (.06mg) would have some action.

You are very dodgy about the question of being on bupe. So you got off at .25mg? How old are you and how long were you on-how old were you? Your brief statement says nothing.
You wonder why people are jumping on you-it because you make allusions to other's mental conditions. If you were so psychologically together what are you doing on a forum dealing with the mental illness of addiction run by a Psychiatrist? Why did you end up addicted to hydros? If it is because of pain issues I do not buy it because I have known pain patients physically dependent without psychological dependance- and they are tapered down and go through the w/d quite well b/c they are not plagued by craving.

Why am I here? Because I cannot stand being on bupe and hope to see some inspirtation- because coming off of long term bupe maintenance at 50yrs old is no cakewalk whatsoever. It is a good thing that people are putting fear into people. Doctors should have along talk with someone before they decide to go on Sub maintenance. It can be crippling if used
too long since the brain shuts its natural system down and takes a long time to rebound- just as if someone were using
Heroin, oxy, hydros, shoving dilaudids for a long time. The good- but not so good thing- is that bupe does not get you
high. and it is easy to dismiss it and think that once the "time is right" you can come off. Guess what- if years go by, you
had better put a lot of time aside to come off because you are likely not gonig to be in good shape.
Yes-everyone is different- just as with benzos everyone is different- everyones brain- that massive neurological
suspension, is extremely complex and individual. What separates "psychological addiction" from physical is a biological
phenomena- but to the individual- each person handles this different from easily recongnizing this, to the psychological
manifesting itelf into the physical

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 15, 2012 4:35 pm 
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My God, are you still beating this dead horse? And what's with the interrogation? I used sub the way it's suggested, and at the proper time, I tapered off. Just because you can't get off doesn't make me a liar. Just because you've used too much for too long, and are now jammed up, doesn't mean other people aren't a little smarter than you.

I'm only sorry I ever wasted my time posting on this thread. Looks like people want to project their frustration on anyone who has actually succeeded, rather than congratulating them. With a little guts, and the right attitude, you can do anything you want in this life. Why don't you focus your energy on that instead of trying to shoot down others who are achieving their goals. Oh well, every loser has an excuse. Just ask them.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 16, 2012 8:42 am 
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Quote:
With a little guts, and the right attitude, you can do anything you want in this life. Why don't you focus your energy on that instead of trying to shoot down others who are achieving their goals.


I believe this is EXCELLENT advice for most everything in life. I hope you continue to hang around, Golden.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 16, 2012 12:00 pm 
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Jesus, Golden. You are, very simply put, an asshole.

"Looks like people want to project their frustration on anyone who has actually succeeded, rather than congratulating them",

This after attacking me personally for sharing my SUCCESS story. Oh, and not congratulating me.(shocker)

And in the SAME paragraph you call someone a loser. In the paragraph before, you talk about being smarter than the other person because they are still on Sub and you aren't.

Dude, go AWAY. You offer nothing constructive, nothing helpful, nothing congratulatory. I HONESTLY CAN NOT believe you haven't been banned from the forums. It absolutely shocks me.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 16, 2012 1:50 pm 
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i think we can learn one important thing from this thread:

it appears sub causes AGITATION/IRRITABILITY if you guys haven't notice. Please try to be mindful of others. I know sub can raise dopamine levels therefore causing agitation but just keep that in mind so you don't hurt other peoples' feelings.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 16, 2012 4:21 pm 
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me my self and i :lol: ' no to people that have did a slow tapper or jumped off 2mg sub,in the past 8 months doing fine, now
but did suffer w/d for about a month and much better after that. one is back using' and the other is doing good. i have now'5 friends on suboxone .and they don't no anything about the forum. and they love suboxone. some times i wounder why i worry
so much about going off suboxone. i told them about suboxone talk zone.

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 Post subject: Re: Update
PostPosted: Mon Jan 16, 2012 8:28 pm 
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broncofan wrote:
Just wanted to give an update, I think I'm at about 30 days or so off, and I'm feeling great. While I don't feel 100%, I'd say I'm in the 90's, still haven't lost a night of sleep, no sweats, no agitation to speak of, and haven't needed clonidine or anything else for several weeks.

GLEEEE!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Good job and congratulations!!!! It's a tremendous feat of self-discipline. You made it!! You made it!!!!

:D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D

laddertipper

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 17, 2012 10:44 am 
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Enough name-calling! No one has to right to personally attack another person on this site. Whether it's directly calling someone a "loser" or calling someone an "asshole". Neither will be tolerated!

This is a general warning. If it continues to happen, personal warnings will be given.

We've discussed this before - almost to the point of beating a dead horse. In fact there's a whole thread devoted to this.

All of us can disagree with what someone's OPINION is WITHOUT attacking THE PERSON. We are all adults here. Do you really have to generalize your disagreement with an IDEA to some kind of dislike or hatred of that person? Let's stick with responding to the OP and supporting them. There's little to no need to attack each others' advice to that OP.

Let's just stick to supporting each other and maybe if you don't have something nice to say, think to yourself first, is this really even necessary to say at all?

Thanks for your continued cooperation.

As you were....

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 18, 2012 4:34 am 
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this is so confuesing when it comes to one making s derrect statment to somone trying to keep the truth of suboxone
real. we all know some people without there full understanding can come off suboxone much easy'er than some one ell's .
but we all also no that from back post and in real life alone that suboxone is a very strong drug. so when gaulois gave his
post. i beleive it is most understanding as far as why and why not any one would be on such a strong medication. and if any one go's off it easy'er than some one that's having it harder. then stik with your good recovery for you should not have
any problems trying to correct any one ell's. all-seeing eye/ i second you. if anyone is doing so well? why fight back with such strong words? :x

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