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PostPosted: Fri Jan 14, 2011 5:01 pm 
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Hat, thank you for your perceptive posting. Before I joined up, I read many of your responses on other threads and I appreciate the time you put in on this site. I meant it when I said this site has the most lucid writing and sincere posts
on the net. You guys are remarkable.

I know the situation with my supplier (can't bring myself to call her a friend right now) sounds terrible, but I didn't tell you the worst of it- she knows I don't have long to go before the pills are gone, and she bummed one this morning. I told her to enjoy it, cause I will never be her source again. I am more than a tad frightened by this person. She has little self control, and cannot be told she is wrong about anything. The embarrassing, scary part is I put my peace of mind in this person's hands, and now my last shred of denial has fallen away. She is a train wreck. I feel sorry for her because I don't think she is anywhere near being able to walk away from all the crap in her world, but I won't let her take me down with her.

If I can just get on suboxone and work out a sane program for myself, she won't have any power over me. Actually, her power is already gone, and she is shocked to see I mean what I say about quitting. The only power she ever had over me was her ability to get more pills...and now she just can't believe my determination. I am already planning ways to lessen time spent around her, even at work. She is someone I must avoid as much as possible, especially while I am just getting started on the subs. God, she scares me to death. At least she is no threat when it comes to blackmail, as everyone is pretty convinced she is crazy. I think everyone she knows avoids her some times, including her large clan of a family.
If I need one strong reason to carry through with my plan, I just have to think about how far I let this person into my life and how much I put up with just to get the damned pills. I make myself sick. True statement.

Thank you for the encouragement, and the plain talk. I found you guys just in time.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 14, 2011 5:06 pm 
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SUBOXOWNED!!! How did you know how she worked this??? That is exactly what happened. She even has two regular days a week to meet this guy who sells them (and other stuff?) to her. She even kept upping the amount I had to buy at one time or he wouldn't bring them out where we are! Of course, the more I have, the more I take. God, I am so gullible. No wonder she is freaking out, and suddenly in so much "pain from her back". I am such an idiot. Of course, it served my own purpose to take her at face value. Just as long as I had the pills, it was all okay...wow, my face is so red.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 14, 2011 6:56 pm 
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Getting my attention back where it should be, on myself and my own problems-

What dose do you all think I should start with IF I induct myself on Sunday after reaching at least moderate/severe withdrawals?

I have one 8 mg suboxone.
Keeping in mind that until the last few days I was taking 15 vicodin ES per day,
and going by everything I read about suboxone, I think a good place to start is 4 mg.

Is this a good plan based on your experience?

Thank you.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 14, 2011 7:02 pm 
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I'm no expert, but I wouldn't start out with anything over 4 mg. Then wait a hour or two, maybe even more (I'm honestly not sure of the proper time frame) and if you still have withdrawal symptoms, then take some more. Remember, your pupils are always a good, objective indicator of your withdrawal status. If the second dose takes care of the rest of your symptoms and your cravings, then that might be all you'll need.

Here are some Dr. J's blog posts about induction: http://suboxonetalkzone.com/category/bu ... induction/

Maybe he'll have more specific information.

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-I'm only responsible for what I say, not for what you understand.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 14, 2011 8:39 pm 
LenaD wrote:
SUBOXOWNED!!! How did you know how she worked this??? That is exactly what happened. She even has two regular days a week to meet this guy who sells them (and other stuff?) to her. She even kept upping the amount I had to buy at one time or he wouldn't bring them out where we are! Of course, the more I have, the more I take. God, I am so gullible. No wonder she is freaking out, and suddenly in so much "pain from her back". I am such an idiot. Of course, it served my own purpose to take her at face value. Just as long as I had the pills, it was all okay...wow, my face is so red.
haha I knew because it takes one to know one and I used to be that addict that your "friend" is. I never ripped anyone off per say but I had a cheap connection and the people who I hooked up didnt know any better and were happy with what they got and in turn I got a cheap endless supply that seemed like the greatest thing ever but of course turned into the worst possible thing imaginable. Oh and I just wanted to say YOU ARE NOT AN IDIOT you are an addict and those are the types of things us addicts do. No need to be ashamed, you are taking a huge step in getting off regular opiates and getting into suboxone recovery. Also like hat said I wouldnt take anything over 4mgs at first and then go from there. I was inducted on 16mgs a day but my doc said to take 4mgs 4x a day. A positive about your situation is that you are coming off such a short acting opioid that as long as you wait long enough to take the sub your induction will be flawless and you will be feeling like your normal self in no time. I cant wait for you to be inducted and report back to us how you are doing


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 14, 2011 9:09 pm 
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Thank you, Hat. I read all the applicable blogs, and downloaded the COWS sheet you posted.

I will read and re-read all of this info several times tomorrow. I think I understand suboxone's mechanics better
every time I read about half life of opiates, suboxone potentcy, etc. again. The scary thing is the possibility of
precipitated withdrawals. Scary stuff, gosh!

I have been tapering down on my vic consumption. Today I only took 10, and tomorrow I have only 6
to get me through 8 hours of work. By 1PM tomorrow, vicodin will be in my past. So do you think
I need to worry about PWD if I wait at least 16-20 hours and am up to Moderate severe on the COWS?

Man oh, man. After learning about the way subs work, I truly see the value in inducting in a doctor's office.
I am sincerely trying to wrap my head around making it to the doctor on Monday at 1:30PM without
taking the sub on my own, but I honestly think I can't make it that long. Like everyone else who has a true
addiction to illegal opiates, there have been a couple of times when I couldn't get my pills, and the WD's
are truly unbearable.

Any and all advice is so welcome, and so needed. I assure you I will take every word to heart, and read
everything you recommend.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 14, 2011 9:53 pm 
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Some good comments and great insight there Suboxowned! Good job.

Lena D, you really can't go by time when looking to safely induce onto Suboxone. It's much more about how you feel, the symptoms you have, and the level of opiates in your body than the amount of time that has passed. From what you have been saying, 16-20 hours should likely put you at the level of withdrawal that is needed, but don't watch the clock. Rather, watch the level you are at on the COWS scale. If you are honestly at a moderate withdrawal level, there is pretty much zero chance of precipitated withdrawals - no matter how much time has passed. If you are not at that moderate level, then you run the risk of PW - again, no matter how much time has passed. It's all about the COWS scale number - not the number of hours.

Hope that helps.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 14, 2011 10:18 pm 
Thanks donh, and yea what donh said is true dont worry about counting the hours worry about the symtpoms you are feeling. For me I had the full range of withdrawal when I was inducted I was shivering but sweating, clammy, restlessness/restless leg syndrome terrible anxiety, stomach cramping etc. You will know when you have waited long enough because these symptoms will start. A good tip I think is that if you are thinking to yourself "am I in withdrawal yet?" you are not because as you know withdrawal is terrible and you definitely WILL KNOW when you start feeling those symptoms.


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 15, 2011 1:18 pm 
I just wanted to give you my support and say how great a thing it is your doing!! Im so happy for you!! You will be so glad you made this decision and you will finally get back control of your life!! Keep thinking the way you are thinking an you will be yet again, another suboxone success story!! PEACE~


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 15, 2011 7:01 pm 
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At 3:30PM today, I took my last 2 vicodin ES. Based on what I have been reading, and past experience, I should be getting into serious withdrawal mode by 10PM. My plan is to take a sleep aid and try to stay out till morning. If that doesn't work, I will sit in my favorite recliner and watch TV...I should be far enough into WD to take 4mg Suboxone by 7 or 8 in the morning.

Honestly, it has been easier and easier to take fewer pills over the last few days. This is not something I look forward to in any way, but I have no doubt it is the right path. The truth is pretty simple. Even though WD is awful, knowing I am going to try Suboxone sure takes most of the fear away. I know I can do this.

I read all the blogs Hatmaker was kind enough to direct me to, and I have read all your posts several times. I take your advice to heart, and I want you all to know that I don't think I could do this without this forum. When the going gets rough tonight I will probably be on here, typing like mad!

Before this forum, I didn't understand the half life of different opiates and how that affects withdrawal. I had to read the explanation about Suboxone potency and slow release several times, but finally a light bulb went on over my head.
It helps so much to understand the process! Makes it less mystical and far less frightening. Now I get why the stage of withdrawal is the important factor, not time passed. Thank you so much for sharing your knowledge!

Guys, by this time tomorrow I will probably understand even better. Please share any thing else you can think of that is helpful, or funny, or inspired. I have the deep seated belief that my life is about to change forever, for the better.


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 15, 2011 9:01 pm 
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LenaD,

I just wanted to say how impressed I am that you're taking it on yourself to do so much work up front learning about Suboxone and the other opiates you've taken and how best to approach your coming induction. In my opinion, Knowledge is Power. That knowledge will surely help squash some of those fears you had.

Good Luck with your induction tomorrow!


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 15, 2011 9:21 pm 
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Thank you, Romeo. I want to thank you for all your input, and encouragement. Knowledge IS power, that is why
addiction is so dangerous- you can't learn while addicted. It is the best way in the world to be stuck. An object
in motion may stay in motion, but a person stuck in addiction cannot change. Change is so difficult, and so constant.
It is the only certainty in life, and if you are using pills (or anything else) to stay stuck (no matter the misbegotten
illogical pathological reason) you stagnate.

That is what I think.


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 15, 2011 9:30 pm 
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Another thought
Last night I read a blog by Dr. J and he posits the worst part of WD and the horrible consequences of addiction
is the terrible feelings of hopelessness. Well, I am not looking forward to WD tonight, but I am amazed to find
I am not all that scared. And the reason why? Because this is the first time I have ever headed into WD
with the protection of HOPE! The knowledge that this dark hallway will lead me to another chance at a wise
and well lived life. That when I get to that point of wanting to choose death rather than suffer any longer,
I have another choice I don't have to die (yet) and I don't have to use my drug of choice and start the destructive,
wasteful cycle of addiction all over again.

That is what the quest for knowledge, found on this forum, has given me.
Hope, the thing with feathers.


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 16, 2011 9:41 am 
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The last thing in the world I expected is happening. Woke up at 2am feeling fairly terrible, ate some ice cream, took a small piece of xanax to go back to sleep...woke up feeling not good, but better than last night!!! Even my eyes are less dialated.
Starting to have GI distress, but that isn't unusual for me. Honestly, it's 8:30am, and I expected to be in full blown WD by now. Can the psychological component of knowing I have suboxone waiting set WD back like this?

I don't feel "good" like after taking a pill, but nothing like I thought I would by now. Guess this why everyone advises
me to go by the COW sheet and not the clock. Can't take the suboxone yet...how strange.


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 16, 2011 1:27 pm 
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Your post was about 4 hours ago and I'm wondering how you are feeling. How do your pupils look? That's always a good indicator of where your body is at. Also the xanax maybe is hiding some of your symptoms? I don't know, but it's a thought I had. I would try to be cautious and avoid starting too soon, and it sounds like that's what you're doing. Thanks for keeping us posted.

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-I'm only responsible for what I say, not for what you understand.


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 16, 2011 2:08 pm 
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LenaD, I hope all it okay with you. After reading your thread a few times, I'm really, really excited for you!!!

You've got a lot going for you. You are starting Suboxone more educated than lots of people are long after they've been on it. Also, maybe you do not feel as afraid because you are CHOOSING this. You aren't being forced only because you ran out. You could have bought more, but you decided to go this route instead. I'd imagine that must make you feel very powerful, like you are in the driver's seat.

Well, please update whenever you can. I'm really happy you found this place and that the people on here have been able to give you so much information and guidance.

laddertipper

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First you take a drink, then the drink takes a drink, then the drink takes you. ~F. Scott Fitzgerald


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 16, 2011 2:49 pm 
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Unbelievable...I managed to wait 21 hours before taking the sub! An hour or so after my last post, the WDs came back
with a vengeance...you know, when you can't sit still and you are afraid to get more than six feet away from the bathroom.
My pupils did dilate again, but they never got as large as they were last night after 12 hours. Very strange. The other symptoms were my tipping point- if I had gone longer I would have been rolling around in bed in a dark room soon.

When I went into the bathroom with my sub in hand, I noted the time, took a last swig of water, and lit my favorite
lavender candle. I pulled the shade, turned of the light, composed myself, and placed the tablet under my tongue at 12:33PM, and didn't allow myself to swallow till 12:44. Honestly, the taste doesn't seem so bad. I was afraid of swallowing an unmelted fragment or screwing it up some way.

Now, almost an hour later, the terrible feeling of tension in my body is going away, and I haven't had diarrhea again.
I had also developed a major headache and that is going away. It feels like a truce has been called within my body...the beast is still there, but it seems content. My nose stopped running, I can concentrate again. It is as if there is a gyroscope inside me and it has straightened itself, and is vibrating at a steady rate. When using opiates, the gyroscope was always in danger of falling, or it was vibrating out of control.

Do you know how nice it is to speak of using opiates in the past tense? Yes, I bet you do.

So far this is going very well. I will see the doctor tomorrow afternoon, my appt is 1:30PM. That might be perfect actually-
will the effect of the 4mg sub wear off before then? Does it typically last 24 hours? Does it wear off sooner when you
first start taking it? Hopefully, I won't need to take anymore today.

I cannot stress how important this forum has been in helping me get here...I searched high and low on the web before I engaged you in discussion. Two weeks ago, I first heard of suboxone and I was able to find the doctor, but I was so
ignorant. To anyone who wants to argue that sub is someone immoral or "unclean", I say, "Please. Let me save my life
before I go on to make a better decision how to live it."

Hat, you are a godsend. Romeo, you open my eyes. And all of you have held the ladder steady so I can begin to climb.
Thank you, thank you.


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 Post subject: WOOOOHHOOOOO!!!
PostPosted: Sun Jan 16, 2011 2:56 pm 
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Yeah! You did it! You did it!

Good job. You waited long enough and everything. I love what you said about it being as if there's been a truce called in your body. What a cool way to put it!

I'm going to let someone else tackle the 'how much will be left' thing.

I love how you lit your candle and all that. You are really ready for this journey. :D

laddertipper

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 17, 2011 7:25 am 
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I'm so glad for you that it's going well. And I'm happy that this forum could offer you some information and support. That's what we're here for. 4 mg might not be enough. It's at or around the ceiling and the goal is to be comfortably above the ceiling to address both the withdrawals and cravings. So you might find you'll need another dose before your appointment.
And that's okay. Thanks for keeping us updated.

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-As I have grown older, I've learned that pleasing everyone is impossible, but pissing everyone off is a piece of cake.

-I'm only responsible for what I say, not for what you understand.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 17, 2011 9:40 am 
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Got up this morning with a severe headache but that is probably due to a continuing sinus condition, and I feel whipped and draggy, so maybe (as Hat suggests) 4mg is a tad low. I did sleep well, though I was exhausted from hours of withdrawal.
That brings a question to mind: If the ceiling is 4mg, why do some users start off at doses as high as 16mg a day?
My friend started at 2mg, and he thinks he could take even less to maintain. As for me, I suspect 4mg is as low as I will go until the doctor and I agree to adjust that dose.

I am looking forward to the doctor today. Unless the assistant I spoke to on the phone is the odd person in the office,
the office, this doctor should be helpful with more than prescribing. They say the will work with me on the cost of office visits based on my income, and they have an arrangement with a local pharmacy to sell suboxone for slightly less cost.

Here is my first legitimate contribution of advice that I have not seen on this thread (excited!):
Call around to different pharmacies in your area before you fill your script! I found a huge difference in price in a five mile
radius. The lowest price I found with a mile of my doctor's office was $7.01 per pill. It could be my imagination,
but I thought I noticed a certain tone in the tech's voice when I repeated that I was researching prices for suboxone.
Hmmm. Maybe it was just my heightened state, but I don't even care. If any professional looks down at me for using
this drug, they are exposing their ignorance. What if it were prescribed for long term, steady pain care? And even
if it is for opiate addiction, HELLO! They are now speaking to a person who has stopped breaking the law, stopped lying,
stopped being part of an illegal ring of god knows what dimensions, and is working on cleaning up a life.

Wow, I got up on a soap box there. Besides, you probably all know to look for lowest priced pharmacy already!
Ha Ha! You can see how important this weekend has been to me. Seriously, I feel as though I peeled my skin
off, and grew another, more delicate exterior through the painful process of withdrawal...and today I re-enter the world.

Thank you. This forum is my anchor right now. I hope you are all doing well in this cold new year.


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