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PostPosted: Sat Mar 28, 2015 7:12 pm 
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Whoop, whoop!!! Go fishey, It's your birthday, we're gonna party like it's your birthday! 8) :D :lol:


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 29, 2015 10:49 am 
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Hahaha sherah thanks for the celebration:) hope you're doing well too!!

Just woke up to day 6. Feeling tired and my guts are kinda gross, but I ate rich foods last night at a party that probably weren't the best for my digestion. And I stayed out super late which doesn't help matters at all. Pretty shit night of sleep actually. :( glad that's not a common thing for me. I can suck it up every once in awhile but not often.

Mentally I feel really really strong today despite being tired and everything. I feel like the fact I made it through yesterday and last night and didn't have to go home and rest was a major accomplishment. Tomorrow I have work again for the first time but I'm not too worried I scheduled myself pretty light for the next week or two.

I also see my family doc tomorrow.(not sure if I'm going to even go to my sub doc yet again) we met for the very first time on Tuesday and I was in panic mode full blown WD when I went into his office. I think at first he was a little freaked out. He told me honestly he didn't know much about buprenorphine products. But what he did do, and this impressed me, was sit with me and take the time to figure out a way to help me. Such a kind man. Young guy too. I was impressed. So I get to see him again and im excited to tell him that I got through it. He kept on commending me for wanting to do this but then he also would add "I'd be really impressed" but he said it more like he doubted I could do it. So I can't wait to go in tomorrow and let him see that ive made it through.

OK well that's my day 6 update.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 29, 2015 12:28 pm 
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Wow! You're doing great Fish! As I understand it Days 4 and 5 are supposed to be the worst...the days the WD symptoms peak. So, you're past the hardest part.

I went ahead and saw a psychiatrist to get started on an antidepressant before beginning my taper, so hopefully it will be built up in my system and working when I get to the point of needing it.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 29, 2015 2:41 pm 
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That's what my sub doctor mentioned doing when I'm ready to step off bupe. I already take fluoxetine for anxiety, so my doctor said that when I taper off he wants to start me on wellbutrin a few weeks before.

Amy

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 30, 2015 9:29 am 
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Amy and morph,
I used to take fluoxetine nearly 10 years straight for depression or anxiety (it was so long ago I was started on it I can't even remember which one!)

My sub doctor actually suggested that I try to stop taking it about 6 months ago and I was able to taper off every other day with no problems or symptoms.

However, now that I am tapered off of the sub I am going to see how my life goes being without behavior medicine whatsoever. Although just like with sub, I feel that some medications are vital to people's quality of life so if I find the depression or anxiety debilitating at any point, I'm not against going back on anti depressants.

Today is the start of day 7 off suboxone.... I'm not going to lie, I kinda had a rough day yesterday with real bad anxiety and stomach issues (although I'm pretty sure it was a result of poor food choices on a stomach that just spent the last week or so in WD).

Who knows though, maybe it was like one final push by my body to detox the medication too? I've heard that sometimes people have one last bout of feeling real bad and then it usually gets better.

In not up and moving around yet because it's real cold in my house and I don't want to get out from under the covers yet :) I have a doctors appointment in a couple hours though. The nice primary care doctor that helped me get through the acute WD wanted me to come back again and check in with him after a week. I'm kind of excited to tell him I made it!

I'll probably make another post here later today, but make a 1week updated post in the Bupe in Rearview Mirror section so people who just want to know what 1 week off feels like don't have to read through alllllllll of my ramblings ;)

Bottom line: getting off of suboxone was not easy for me. It was not fun. But it was not impossible. It's something i was glad i made part of a super long taper to a pretty small dose (0.26mg) before jumping off. I took three days off work plus my weekend, so I was down and out a total of 5 total days (I hit real bad sick on afternoon of day 2 and today is morning of day 7).

Physical symptoms were peaking at end of day two and most of day 3. Felt like a really bad flu. Took really small doses of clonidine to feel better, and zofran for the nausea. Clonidine helped me sleep through a good deal of it. That stuff is so powerful for me. End of day 3 I knew there was light at the end of the tunnel.

Day 4 I felt OK but was pretty drained from the ordeal of the acute WD. Anxiety started to kick in.

Day 5 I felt a hundred times better and pushed myself out of the house and had a family social commitment I couldn't skip. Only took zofran on this day to combat some lingering nausea. Bad decision to stay out of the house all day and into the early hours of the morning, definitely wasn't ready for all that entailed. but i will say it gave me a little boost of confidence that I was pretty damn tough to make it through and pretty sure no one knew I was ever going through anything.

Day 6 felt pretty bad physically again. Horrible stomach issues and insane anxiety. Pretty sure it was a self induced setback from doing too much and going too hard the day before. Started to feel better after I got some dinner in me. Slept through the night thanks to clonidine.

Did not wish to go back to taking suboxone at any point during all of this. I was 100% ready to take this on.

Thanks to everyone who supported me and read this thread. You were all a vital support system for me during the whole ordeal:)

One final note: I do not advocate strongly in either way for people to taper off suboxone, or to maintain for life on buprenorphine medication. I think in a lot (maybe even a majority) of cases maintenance might be the better option. Stopping suboxone is not for everybody. I feel that the best chances for success if its YOUR idea and not a push from anyone other than YOU if this is the route you choose to go. And be committed to it 100% or it will not work. You will know when it's time :)


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 30, 2015 2:19 pm 
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Congratulations Fish!!!
What I take away from your experience is that I need to try to arrange things so that I can take it easy...exerting yourself too much during the jump makes things extra hard. I will probably try to schedule a week off with no family activities...just crashing and watching Netflix.

Keep us posted on how things go.

Thanks,
Morphing


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 31, 2015 4:46 pm 
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Congrats on the Jump Fish.. you are through the worst of it!

Morphing: I have tried both way.. just laying around and doing nothing (it was horrible, hell, 3 times I did it that way).. and this time began running every morning 2-3 miles several weeks ago and am almost totally off.. it was much better to get active and work out (at least it was for me) long before your jump so when you do you can continue your exercise routine.. it is so important..

If you read the "microdose taper" thread the majority of the people posting in there advocate strongly for exercise as they did and they hardly felt it.. I feel great and am doing that..

Just a thought.. check it out..

Hope everyone gets to where they want to be with all this! :)


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 01, 2015 12:13 am 
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Hey Fish! Just thinking of you and sending good vibes your way. I hope you are feeling better!
~Sherah


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 01, 2015 11:39 am 
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Fishy, the random tiredness may end up lingering for a while, but it gets easier to some degree. I don't get it anymore, but I feel like it lasted for 3-4 Weeks for me personally to a pretty manageable degree. With L-Tyrosine, assuming you use it somewhat conservatively, it will help both shorten that, and make you feel more awake, plus fix stomach constipation from opiates potentially.

Hope you've stuck through with it, you defintiely made it through the hard part, and to answer your earlier questions, yes its worth it to be clean IMO. Feeling normal to me anyways felt a lot like dosing back then with no downside of being chained to pills in order to do so. I think thats a worthy trade for about 4-7 days of garbage, and lingering few weeks of feeling semi off. The few weeks were extremely minimal though. Most of the really bad tiredness went away fairly quickly.

Hope you're still doing well.

evolved.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 01, 2015 3:28 pm 
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Sherah- thank you for thinking of me! Yes, im doing real good, except my sleep has been pretty crappy the past few nights but I have a call into my doctor so hopefully I'll get help with that soon. Thanks so much for checking in on me, I hope you are also well!!

Evolved, I did stick with it! Today is day 9. Yayyyy! I totally feel like im through the worst of it. I'm glad that it was worth it to you, I can already tell it's worth it to me too. You were so right when you time me to hold onto the l-tyrosine because I was gonna need it! I have had to take it for work two days in a row now but I'm hoping tonight I'll get some sleep by some chance in hell and that I'll feel more energy soon. It didn't make me feel too wound up, like I was afraid of, so that was a relief. Thanks for checking in!

Just trying to get through the next few weeks of feeling different than I'm used to... But I'm sticking it out, no question about it.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 03, 2015 3:00 pm 
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Day 11
Pretty much feel normal today. Kind of grumpy. I took a 500mg l-tyrosine about 10 mins ago even though I don't feel the fatigue kicking in yet, I'm sure it will because Im only halfway through my day and still have another 7 hours of work.

Feeling great though for the most part. It's definitely not as scary as I thought it would be.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 13, 2015 9:43 pm 
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DAY 21...3 WEEKS OFF SUBOXONE

well, here I am giving a update of three weeks off suboxone.

Physically I'm doing very well. I still am cold most of the time but i feel that since i started back doing actual exercise a few days back, its not quite as bad, just more of an annoyance at this point. I've been working really really hard every day and my job is long long hours on my feet with lots and lots of clients to deal with. Hard work, made me wish i had a desk job for a quick minute when i started back at work after the jump. (Missed 6 days of work during jump) But my energy is back to its normal level now for the most part and getting better and better each passing day.

The only thing I can really complain about at this point would be my mood. Its up and down, but the downs are really dark and angry and the ups are just sorta blehhhh....marriage has been super hard lately as my husband is going through his own struggle right now with alcohol (I don't drink anymore, that ended when suboxone treatment began). So I guess I can't say for sure if my shit mood is due to coming off suboxone three weeks ago or due to being sad/mad about our marriage issues right now.

I don't want to be quick to blame the suboxone jump for my problems. Maybe this is just my first taste of life since being completely clean of everything. I'll get through it.

So three weeks is a dramatic improvement in how I feel overall both physically and mentally. The fact that I'm feeling so much emotion is rather annoying, as I'm not quite used to it. But I know it's all part of the endorphins and all that brain chemistry trying to rewire itself after over a decade of opiate abuse...so I'll get there eventually, I might just be an emotional pain in the ass in the meantime!

Hope everyone is well, in whatever phase of this ride youre currently embarking upon. Keep your heads up, take it one day at a time that's all we can do.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 15, 2015 12:52 am 
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Hey Fish,
From what I read I am guessing you are not getting the support you need at home. Sounds like you are having to deal with not only your issue but the hubbies too. Hang in there kid. One day you will both look back on this and say, that was tough but we did it! If you don't kill each other first. :lol: Bad joke I know. ...
I'm still living vicariously with the fishster!


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 15, 2015 1:08 am 
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Sherah you always make me smile with your understanding and kind posts! :) :)

I'm going to make it through, hopefully with my husband by my side... But only time will tell. He's not as far into the whole dealing with his demons part of things. But he's started the journey and I think he will get there eventually.

With any of us addicts/alcoholics i think a real important part of our recovery is when we decide FOR OURSELVES and no one else that we need to get our shit together. That's the only time I believe real lasting basis for change will take place.

We are so blessed here at the forum to have such an awesome group of people who are all here for the same reason and who are all trying to improve their lives. I can't say enough how thankful I am for everybody here. ((((Big hugs))))


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 15, 2015 2:14 pm 
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Hello fish!

Three weeks off of Suboxone is a HUDGE accomplishment. I know from your documentation it has not been easy. The most time I have had not taking Suboxone was 5 days (several times). Netflix is helpful. I am thinking out loud here and will get to my point soon. I have noticed that my emotions are all over the place. I don't sneeze anymore. When I am in withdrawal I sneeze like crazy. Watery eyes. Goose bumps, while watching movies I will have bouts of laughter. I will also have bouts of tearing up as well.

Music helps me to when I feel like ass. I also get these emotions with music. Ok anyway I have a question for you and everybody following this very well documented thread. I am in a way documenting my thoughts. I found myself thinking about what you mentioned about the tyrosine. One of your above comments you mentioned having to take tyrosine to go to work. It enabled you to go to work. There was also a comment that said something like you took it even though you had low but sustainable energy. I can kind of comprehend this last statement or sentence with pain. Even though a person is not in pain they should still take their pain medication because it is harder (harder wtf?) it is hard to stop pain once it has already set in. This one is a relative situation. Now to my point What I would like to know is your thoughts on this.

It popped into my head while reading and wondering what is the difference? What is the difference in taking tyrosine or Suboxone, To feel better. I am not asking to be a shit head, or to try to draw you back into starting your taper. I am asking this as trying to understand As futile as it may be. I am Trying to understand the negative outlook society has on addiction. I am wondering what you think the difference is? I believe this negative outlook drives us just as much as our drug of choice.

Thanks again Fish!

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Last edited by god_from_the_snake on Wed Apr 15, 2015 2:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 15, 2015 2:32 pm 
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Hi snake!
I just wanted to say that I'm very interested in having this discussion. However do you think we could start a new thread so other peeps could chime in? I think this is an important thing to discuss.

Do you want to start a new thread? Or should we just talk about it here?

I have to head back to work right now but I want to comment real quick (I'll say more later)...

You asked why do i feel its different the fact i took L- tyrosine capsules the first few days of work after my jump, then how is that different than taking suboxone? The first answer that popped into my head was that the tyrosine is a dietary supplement i bought at gnc and the suboxone is a powerful scheduled prescription narcotic. I'm not saying that fact technically makes it wrong or right because I, as you said, think "wrong" is subjective.

But I've felt the physical dependency of being depending on a narcotic medication for staying well and it wasn't something I wanted to deal with on a daily basis in my life anymore. Haven't taken tyrosine again since those first few days and don't have a use for it at this point.

As you know I absolutely support anyone who chooses sub maintenance. Shit, I support any kind of recovery, whether its full blown abstinence based AA/NA....SMART recovery, whatever it may be. I even support a moderation or harm reduction recovery if thats what works for a person. I believe that it works if you work it. Period. No matter what it is.

Having said all that... Will I ever take opiates again? Probably. Will I ever smoke weed or drink alcohol again? Probably. Recovery is a process. Bahhh im off topic....

Let me know what you think or if u start a thread!!


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 15, 2015 2:53 pm 
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I think we could keep the discussion here. I assume you still plan on documenting how things are going? You totally rocked this thread. I find starting new threads..They get lost in the sauce. This is of course just my opinion. If you think we should bring this to a new thread so we don't loose the point of this topic/thread, for those folks that are in a active taper. Since this is your thread, I think it would be best if you started the new thread and we can continue from there. It is up to you Fish. 8)

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 15, 2015 10:54 pm 
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Snake god!
OK let's keep it here :) so nice of you to say I rocked this thread, you're a sweetheart. So yes, dude let's keep it here!!

Topic begin!! What do you think? Does it matter which supplement/medication/prescription we use to help us get through the day? I can't figure out how to directly quote from your earliest post how exactly you asked.... Could you reply and start of the question again?

I didn't gather from your post that you were trying to get me to go back on suboxone. Not at all. Just a point for the sake of discussion and a very interesting and important thing we should open up for discussion.

How do we start? Let's stay on this thread, but snake would you do the honor of kicking us off? (Looking forward to some intelligent and lively debate/conversation.) I know these folks around here are respectful of one another and I think this could make for a stimulating dialogue... Something that discusses a real issue instead of just listen to me piss and moan about how grumpy and cold and sluggish im feeling post jump... Lol ...


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 16, 2015 1:01 am 
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OK so I'm going to kick this off by quoting parts of snake god's post to me and then giving my opinion as I go. I'll refer to the quotes from snake god as SNAKE:

SNAKE: It popped into my head while reading and wondering what is the difference? What is the difference in taking l-tyrosine or suboxone, to feel better? (END SNAKE)

Besides the obvious pharmacological differences and dependency profile of suboxone (a prescribed and highly scheduled/regulated partial opioid) and l-tyrosine (an OTC supplement available just about anywhere)... Which I'm sure you are aware of these facts, so this isn't meant to insult you. My goal during the time I was experiencing the heavy fatigue was to detox from and then discontinue treatment with the legally prescribed medication suboxone. So at that point I chose a a supplement that I could safely take very short term to alleviate the fatigue. And then as my receptors and my body progressed/repaired itself, the suboxone further removed itself from my system. The symptoms of fatigue started to improve and once I pushed through those first five days of work, I haven't taken the l-tyrosine since. And given it is a supplement and NOT a potent narcotic...i was able to discontinue the l-tyrosine without any physical or mental symptoms of withdrawal or dependence on said supplement. Would taking suboxone at that point have alleviated my extreme fatigue? Absolutely, and probably very effectively at that. However, that would've been counter intuitive to my goal of discontinuing the suboxone from my recovery. So for me, that is the difference. To further elaborate my opinion, I will refer to some more of your post:

SNAKE: I can kind of comprehend this last statement or sentence with pain. Even though a person is not in pain they should still take their pain medication because it is harder (harder wtf?) It is hard to stop pain once it has already set in. This one is a relative situation. Now to my point I would like to know your thoughts on this. (END SNAKE)

This is a slippery slope and maybe a different issue entirely. (meaning, chronic pain control) But I will respond as it pertains to the rest of your post and your questions as I understand them, assuming we are still talking about suboxone being prescribed in the clinical setting to treat opiate addiction. I believe that if someone has WD pain (In this example the pain and symptoms one might have jumping off buprenorphine) ...i do of course believe they are entitled to reasonably treating that pain. But in my case with the jumping off suboxone, I knew it was going to be painful. So, I don't think your preemptive pain control example applies to this scenario (to keep ahead of the symptoms by continuing to administer medication.) I think a person discontinuing buprenorphine should wait and see how they are feeling, and then medicate with NON ADDICTIVE/NON NARCOTIC comfort meds accordingly. Yes, of course a person could simply stay on a stable dose of suboxone and eliminate the pain of WD before it ever happens, much like you described with pro actively treating pain in your post. But, like I said, my goal personally was to discontinue the suboxone so obviously that medication would not be something I would continue to use either preemptively or as needed to treat my symptoms. And in general, in any situation where medications are being used to manage or alleviate any kind of symptoms:I almost always would advocate for using the medication with the highest safety/addiction profile as a first line of treatment, and then go down the line if those aren't working. (i.e. if you had aches and pains, one would try to alleviate it with hydration, drinking some water first... Then move to an OTC pain reliever such as Tylenol or Advil, if that didn't work try other pharmaceuticsl avenues through a doctor... And then I really believe at the very last possible attempt without relief, THEN a scheduled narcotic would be the very last suggestion by a healthcare provider. I believe this would be based strictly on safety profile of the medications/remedies suggested. To summarize, I don't think a potent narcotic such as buprenorphine should be used or viewed on the same wavelength as an nutritional supplement one can purchase OTC from any meathead sitting behind a counter at your local GNC.


SNAKE: I am not asking to be a shit head or to try to draw you back into starting your taper. I am asking this as trying to understand As futile as it may be. (END SNAKE)

Well, now that I am day 23 past my jump, let alone my taper, there is no way in hell I would give up on this now. I know that I don't want to be on suboxone and I don't like the way I feel on suboxone. It was (and still kind of is) a long drawn out series of mild to moderate WD that I don't wish to repeat again. EVER. so don't feel like you have to apologize about something like that, Snake, I know you are only trying to gain insight and information. :)


SNAKE: I am trying to understand the negative outlook society has on addiction. I am wondering what you think the difference is? I believe this negative outlook drives us just as much as our drug of choice. (END SNAKE)

Yes, I agree there is a stigma to addiction and the method in which individuals treat their addiction. I don't know about negative outlook driving us just as much as our drug of choice. I think the drug of choice takes over in ways in our brain and pathways that are far beyond our comprehension. I don't think addiction can ever be explained, but I sure am glad there are drug companies out there working on options to treat our disease. What we have now for options is far from perfect but I do believe we are making progress. I predict the signs will always remain somewhere, somehow, but I do predict it becoming less prominent as the years go on and the research and development from science continues to produce innovative treatment modalities such as medications like buprenorphine products. Just like depression and anxiety would land a person a stay in a mental institution many decades ago, now it is widely accepted that mental illness is real, and medications have developed to make it virtually a non issue to carry on a normal functional life, despite the diagnoses of mental illness. My hope is that the same will be true of addiction, and that less individuals and families will lose everything as a result of our disease.


SNAKE: I found myself thinking about what you mentioned shoot the tyrosine. One of your above contents you mentioned having to take tyrosine to go to work. It enabled you to go to work. There was also a content that said something like you took it even though you had low but sustainable energy... (END SNAKE)

You know, Snake, I did indeed use the l-tyrosine supplements for a few days when I had to start back at work after my jump. Could I have made it through without the supplement? Possibly. Probably. BUT it was such a scary time for me, that I think after the first couple days I took them as a preventative measure to pro-actively combat the fatigue that I had gotten used to expecting. That was my very worst symptom at that point and my job requires not only physical energy but emotional energy for the nature of what I do in dealing intimately one on one with people who I've spent years gaining their trust and loyalty. I could not afford to be sub-par in my work in any way (although in retrospect I must definitely was not performing at 100% during that week, despite taking the l-tyrosine. Short answer? I took it because the fear of the fatigue debilitating me to the point of not satisfying my clients needs and expectations caused me to take the chance that the supplement would help keep me pushing through.


Anything else? Anyone? Any thoughts on this or anything relating to it? Thanks snake god for giving me things to ponder. I look forward to hearing how you see things! (And anyone else who wants to throw in their two cents!!)


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 16, 2015 11:30 am 
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:idea:

Pondering: Compiling my thoughts. In the mean time does anyone else have thoughts on what the differences are?

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