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PostPosted: Fri Jul 16, 2010 1:54 am 
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Hey all,

I received my first dose 2-3 hours ago of 6 mgs. Decided to spit after half an hour under my tongue to avoid the side-effects I'd experienced on sub previously. And I tell you, it's far from holding me. Which is bizarre given that in the past 6mg would at least put an end to my withdrawl symptoms.

I was sitting in the pharmacist looking worse-4-wear naturally. Nose dripping all over their lovely carpet, yawning and kicking around. Got my dose, paid, signed their contract (I love those things. No I will not browse your store unsupervised. Fair enough really LOL). Anyway, 2-3 hours post dose and my nose is still dripping (though not as bad. it seems to like the space-bar), I'm still yawning, and I'm still cold. What's worrying is that my pupils are still fairly large, which is a fair indicator that if I were to use now I would get a decent effect. :?

If this is how 6mgs works doing the sit&spit, I'll probably need 18-24mgs to get by :|. Has anyone else needed higher doses when spitting?

T.


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 16, 2010 5:59 am 
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Hi tearjerker,
I'm sorry you're having a hard time. So did the doctor only give you 6 mg and sent you on your way? Did you call the doc to let her/him know that you're still in withdrawals? When do you go back in? I'm sorry that I have more questions than I do answers for you. If you don't see the doc today I'd call her/him and explain what's going on. Good luck and please keep us posted on how you're doing.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 16, 2010 1:33 pm 
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Welcome.......definitely call your doc and tell him/her that 6mg is not doing it for you. I think you said you were on sub before -perhaps your tolerance is higher (not sure).

Also what is this contract thing at the pharmacy? I will not browse your store unattended....does it really say that? What pharmacy is this? Good Luck.....hope you call your doc.

Jim


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 16, 2010 3:03 pm 
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I'm guessing you didn't have any choice on that contract thing, but it would have taken every ounce of my self-will not to tell that pharmacy to get bent if they asked me to sign a contract where I agreed that I wouldn't browse their store unattended. WTF is that?

Sorry you're feeling like crap, but I have to ask: What kind of side effects were you experiencing from not spitting? The worse side effects I've ever heard of from the swallowing of the subs was a headache. And I'm guessing you'd probably happily trade a headache for withdrawals, no?


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 16, 2010 6:32 pm 
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What? They made you sign a contract?! 'Keep away from the Tylenol you lousy junkie!' haha, what?! That's ridiculous. I have never experienced anything like that, and although it's surely standard procedure for that pharmacy, I would have lost my mind, especially if I were already in withdrawal and miserable. One of the things that pisses me off the most about being an addict is the stigma associated with it- no matter who you are, if you're an addict, and someone happens to find out about it- welp, that's all you are now; an addict; a boil on the ass of humanity. You need to be watched intently if you are anywhere within a 100 mile radius of any medication that has the potential to be abused. What total bastards. Sorry. I get upset when I hear/ read about such things.

Anyway, I am sorry that you still feel crappy after 6mgs. I guess you know what you should expect since you have been through this before. Do you access to any more Subs? I would assume that you don't, otherwise you wouldn't be suffering anymore, right? I wish you didn't have to feel this way.

The first day that I took Suboxone, I had convinced myself that I wouldn't need any more than 4mgs to hold me. Then it was 6. Then 8. Then 12. I stopped at 12 because I had a limited supply, and I was STILL withdrawing from my drug of choice, which I didn't realize until about a day and a half later...

You probably know that it takes a few days to adjust to the Suboxone, and you probably know the difference between that adjustment period and what you are experiencing right now. My pupils were also still quite large even after 12mgs. I refused to take any more than that in a 24 hour period, though that was a poor decision and I do not recommend that anyone else make it. I felt much better the second/third day. RLS persisted for about four days, though it become increasingly more mild every hour until it dissipated altogether. I think, if you are like me anyway, that you will feel much better tomorrow, and hell, maybe even 6mgs will be enough then, who knows? For me, I only needed about half of what i took the first day and a half, and then was certain that I was no longer withdrawing. Please try to keep your head up, and stay confident about your treatment! I know it's hard when you are feeling terrible and the solution seems so clear, so simply applied to the situation, but you can do it:) As everyone else said- call your doctor and let him/her know immediately how you are feeling, and maybe they can help you out in some way. I hope that you feel better soon:)


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 16, 2010 8:58 pm 
Please tell us what pharmacy it is so we can all boycott their asses. Also, my doc gave me the OK to take up to 12mg the first day, even though I was on a fairly low dose of opiates before induction. I hope you can get the go ahead to take more with a phone call, because it sounds like you legitimately need it.
Keep us posted.
Lilly


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 18, 2010 6:14 am 
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Bit of an update. I held tight over the first 24 hour period of wd's, pushed through. Next day spot on 9am I dragged my ass up to the pharmacy (it's funny how wd's can almost make me feel too lazy and sick to get to the pharmacy) and got 8mg this time as my doc prescribed a variable dose of 6-8mgs. This time I didn't spit, and left it in my mouth longer. Within 45 mins my energy came back and the wd's subsided. I actually got some stuff done yesterday thank god. Things were positive. It was a good day. So much so I managed to get to a family dinner & an old friend's party afterward. It was good to spend some time among non-addict folk again even if I felt like a bit of a fraud.

I should have left the party out of the equation though in hindsight as I was finding the wd's returning as I made my way there. I also intended to have a few drinks and if you're anything like me, you'd know what I'm talking about. with mild intoxication I didn't seem to care as much about the idea of scoring. Ended up leaving early and used on the way home. Not good. The bupe had a minor blockade effect, but I still got a marked effect from the gear. 8mg of sub should really block for 24 hours solid, so I think theres enough evidence there that I'm a fast metaboliser of the suboxone.

I guess I've learned once again that alcohol undermines my recovery. I drink, I use. I whipped myself hard for a while today over the lapse but really I'm lucky I learned this lesson early in my treatment. I've never been much of a drinker anyway. As long as I'm honest w/ the doc about it, I don't see why this lapse should undermine things in the long term.

I'm going to ask if I can increase to 12-16, and dose split over the day. But I'm really not sure whether pharmacies permit u to have half there and take half home (I'm in Aus btw).

Thanks for your replies. T.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 18, 2010 6:41 am 
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I'm sorry things turned out that way for you. BUT - as you said, you learned something very important about yourself early on in your treatment. This may better prepare you to do well in recovery in the long run. Stay positive and keep focused.

I would say that the bupe didn't block the effect because you haven't been taking it long enough for your opiate receptors to be saturated yet. I think increasing your dose is probably a good idea. Most people are induced at higher than 6 mg, but once stabilized can go on to a lower dose for the long haul.

It sounds like your doctor is pretty much leaving the dosing, etc., up to you. As far as I'm concerned, I think your doctor should take a more active role in your treatment. But perhaps I've misunderstood and I'm way off base. Hopefully your doc will agree to a dose increase and your receptors will be fully saturated, thus eliminating any remaining cravings.

I can tell you're looking at this in a positive light and I think that's so much better than beating yourself up about it. Good on ya! Hang in there and please keep us posted on how you're doing.

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 Post subject: about relapsing on sub
PostPosted: Sun Jul 18, 2010 4:28 pm 
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Hi Tearjerker, I just wanted to share with you that my experience is that the sub seems to be working better and better at blocking other opiates. When I was first on sub I could still get high if I did heroin. But later it didn't work so well. I kept relapsing and it got to the point where I'd do heroin for 3 days running (and stopped taking my sub) by the 3rd day I could feel the heroin but really not in a good way at all. Mostly I was just exhausted and just wanted it to be over. Mostly I only got the effects from the heroin that I don't even like, like insomnia. And then I'd need to sleep it off. But now, I think I've finally reached the ceiling effect with the sub because I've relapsed on pills, of the strongest of opiates, and the pills just haven't effected me at all. So...I know everyone is different in terms of what dose they need but...I think being on the right dose is really important, for one thing, and I think taking sub for long enough might make a difference in the blocking effects too. I'm still not even sure what dose I should be on and my doctor hasnt' been very helfpul--just advises me to take as leittle as possible. But I'm thinking, it's really important to stay above the ceiling effect. I dont' know what that is, but people seem to think around a minimum of 4mgs is probably usually necessary. Anywa, I'm sorry I don't really have any helpful advice for you, I just wanted to post to you since I just had a relapse to, and I really really am feeling bad about it. Heroin is my DOC too (I assume when you say "gear" you mean heroin(?)) so I feel like I can relate. AS for alcohol...yes, it's certainly known to negatively affect judgment...and reduce inhibitions..so drinking could make it easier to make the wrong choice. Anyway, all we can do after a mistake is resolve not to do it again...I sure hope I've finally learned enough that I'll STOP automatically wanting to relapse if I can, since at this point the sub really does block opiates. I'm not about to take massive amounts trying to get past it either. Anyway, I just wanted to say, I'm sorry you relapsed, and I hope it doesnt' happen again. And please keep posting to let us know how you're doing. I think staying in touch with support can help keep us on track.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 19, 2010 5:44 am 
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autononymous wrote:
Anywa, I'm sorry I don't really have any helpful advice for you, I just wanted to post to you since I just had a relapse to, and I really really am feeling bad about it. Heroin is my DOC too (I assume when you say "gear" you mean heroin(?)) so I feel like I can relate.


I hear you. I prefer not to look at it as a relapse. Relapse reminds me of my 12 step days, and if I run with their philosophy and the beliefs that I carried back then, I wouldn't have kept it to the one night. If I look at it as a slip or a lapse, that's exactly how I'll leave it.

Besides I'm still getting stabilised on the stuff. I find that at night (presumably when there's less bupe in my system) I'm starting to get joint pain in my left hip. Makes me feel like a bit of a geriatric.

I've been on the road you speak of where I'd often skip 2-3 doses in a row and have mini-binges. I also maintained a fortnightly pay-day habit tied over by the suboxone once for a couple of months. I think there's something about maintaining that level of addictive behaviour, especially the deception to friends family & the doc, that inevitably led me to full blown heroin use.

Anyway I hooked in with a really good counsellor today. Reminds me of how fortunate I am to live in a place where there's so many services to hook into when ur down & out. Main priority now is to find myself some stable accommodation.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 19, 2010 11:16 am 
So you have to go to the pharmacy every day and take your dose in front of them? If that is the case and you can't split your dose, the higher dose will remain in your system for 24 hours. It may take almost a week for your blood level to stabilize, but you will reach a steady state - and hopefully won't feel more vulneralable late in the day, and won't have that night time pain.
Good Luck.

PS There was a chart in one of the threads that shows how the bupe level builds up in your system over a week or so. That chart is such a good visual illustration of something that's hard to describe in words. Does anyone know where that is, and could a moderator sticky it at the top of one of the discussions (dosing or induction maybe?)?


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 19, 2010 11:39 am 
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I know the chart you're referring to Lilly, but like you I don't know which thread it's in. If anyone knows and can post the link to it, I'll gladly make it a sticky so it can be found more easily next time.

Hat

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-I'm only responsible for what I say, not for what you understand.


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