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 Post subject: Finally done
PostPosted: Wed Apr 06, 2011 4:25 am 
I hesitated for a long time to post that my goal in getting off sub has come true. Ive always wondered why so many people never come back to explain how they are doing, but near the end of reaching my goal it became very clear, i know this will ruffle a lot of feathers, but when i started to get happy about being clean, and realize i loved being sober way more then the way the sub made me feel i got tons of crap thrown at me here. I felt if i said anything negative about the subs i would just get attacked by everybody. Who would come back and post they love being sober, when a lot of people here (core group of people this is a small site) post constantly how being on suboxone is absolutely 100 percent normal and sober. And deny that there are any negative effects. I felt like it was epiphany after epiphany when my brain started healing, i call it the hype feeling but i had this sense of well being and determination that was not present on sub, and anytime i explained this i was shot down.

Why come back and post your success story, when the overall opinion is being on sub is the same as being sober? And i also felt like everyone was just telling me to stay on it cause ill relapse if i get off "too soon". But deep down i felt like sub was just one big relapse, just cause i wasnt high didnt mean anything to me, i am an athlete and cherish my body and mental health, and on suboxone it simply was not 100 percent.

I was convinced i would come back and post my story as SOON as i got clean, but once i did i had tons of reservations about it.I thought why come back here and post it? There is no point when everyone is gonna tell me i have a higher chance of relapse almost 90 percent etc, etc. So why should I even try? I felt like everyone here is thinking you are at risk for dieing once you get off sub cause of relapse , etc, etc. But screw that i wanted off, and havent even thought about getting high once, and after looking back i never relapsed after getting off pain pills, and never chased the high once so i think i am on point for being a success story.

I now understand why almost no one comes back to post there success stories, i now think its not as much they failed, but they are off living life, and dont want to feel like they are flirting with death like many of the people here make it seem. There is so much fear clouting addiction here its pretty hard to convince anyone here you just want to be healthy and wont have a problem with relapse. Everyday on suboxone i would stare out the window after my run, with this nostalgic feeling that my happiness and life just wasnt quite there, keep in mind being sober and healthy was really fresh in my mind, i hadnt been on sub for years, or opiates for years before i got on suboxone, i was on opiates for 1 MONTH!!

I hope no one takes this super offensively , and i know im missing tons of points i came here to make but i completely brain farted and will be adding them later. But i would just like to bring this to light, as everyone that makes a post about a taper, or short term sub detox and doesnt come back, does not mean they are out there faililng or getting high.

I pretty much agreed with everyone on this website, UNTIL i started tapering, feeling my brain chemistry returning to normal, and got completely clean. I am now WOWed deep down on how much people push long term sub use here. If there was no way people could abuse the opiates , lets say in an patient facility speaking hypothetically people wouldnt be pushing long term use as much. But for sub i feel like that not high feeling fools a lot of people thinking they are doing damage to there bodies. I was completely dumb founded when i tried to find support here and through my doctor with the way i felt and a lot of symptoms, i felt so alone and it was like NO WAY IT CAN BE THE SUB! But now looking back i cant believe i thought all those problems were me deep down, i feel a thousand times better than even my best day on sub. And watching how it rots out peoples teeth after 6 to 7 years of use makes my jaw drop when people say its perfectly fine to stay on it for life, im not saying no one should use sub long term, its defintly better than active opiate adddiction and shooting up etc. But its not for as many people as its pushed here, i mean it has such a long half life, and effects your brain chemistry just like opiates just without the high, and when i quit i felt soooo depressed for so long and couldnt believe the damage it did after just a year on it. I cant imagine the hole people are digging after 10 yrs usage on sub and how long that detox would be, and how out of wack there receptors would be.

Dont take it wrong, i just feel sympathy for those who didnt come back to post there stories. No body wants to feel like the hardest thing they ever went through in there life, was not even worth it, and long term sub is essentially the same on your body as being sober, cause its NOT!

I find a lot of the people pushing these things, had a long use of opiate use before the subs so it applies to them, because they cant even remember what it feels like to be happy sober. It was always fresh on my mind so i had a great comparison, and being on sub is better than being on full antagonist opiates, but is FARRRRRR from being sober.

Please discuss. And yes suboxone is a mild high. even after a year on it at a dose as low as .2 it is an altered perception of reality and a different feeling, so yes it is a HIGH. Just like a caffeine high is considered a buzz. Just cause your not FUCKED UP doesnt mean your sober!


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Apr 06, 2011 4:37 am 
O ya one of the things i realized i left out. I freaking spent hundreds of hours surfing this website, posting about my tapering everywhere online, gathering information and advice. Constant worrying about the next dose, or how i would feel tapering, on this x amount of sub etc, etc. It took so much out of my life, i dont even know why im posting now. all those hours hearing about how i will most likely relapse didnt do me any good. I thought about drugs a thousand times less when i stayed the fuck away from this site and just spent time with my support system. I went from actually believing i will always be addicted to opiates. to literally spending days forgetting i ever even took them in my life, and genuinely enjoying the moments of my life, and living in the moment. I hope all the people on long term sub detox can one day feel the way i do, its truly a gift and the burst of emotions i get off really show me how numb sub made me feel. Of course i never thought i was numb while on the sub.

And please no typical post like this " I hate when someone just gets clean and comes back and bashes like they know it all with there measely clean time" This smug answer is not welcome as i got one of those late time i mentioned this.

or "Your getting too cocky with your recovery if you act like this you will relapse, and omg youve only been clean for a month etc, etc.

My answer to these will be, ok, your telling me im wrong because if i fuck up i might be back in your position on long term sub detox, the logic to these typical answer is rediculous, and not welcome in my thread. Keep it from personal insults about me, generalizations are okay. just personal stabs about my situation are not welcome, if you wanna tear apart my opinions or statements thats one thing, but i have a feeling this thread can get ugly fast, so lets keep it from stabbing at eachother personally, and argueing logic and opinions, not malicious words . :lol:


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 Post subject: word up
PostPosted: Wed Apr 06, 2011 4:50 am 
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Congratulations Onniegrapples on achieving your sobriety! IMO everything you said sounded right on the money and really hit home for the fact that I have been struggling for so long trying to get of this medicine. Also I don't know if you have the story of how you got of the SUB somewhere else on this site , but if not I am interested in hearing it. Well looking forward to hearing the missing pieces to your journey and until then I wish you continued success in everything. Thank you ~Joseph


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 Post subject: Re: word up
PostPosted: Wed Apr 06, 2011 5:01 am 
Joseph wrote:
Congratulations Onniegrapples on achieving your sobriety! IMO everything you said sounded right on the money and really hit home for the fact that I have been struggling for so long trying to get of this medicine. Also I don't know if you have the story of how you got of the SUB somewhere else on this site , but if not I am interested in hearing it. Well looking forward to hearing the missing pieces to your journey and until then I wish you continued success in everything. Thank you ~Joseph


Ya its on here the thread is " i dont even know how im typing this" Its pretty spotty and incomplete i was struggling hard and once it got bad, i felt the worst thing i could do was come to this site.

I may have sounded harsh in my post but this is where i stand, everyone on here talks about the danger of relapse after getting off sub. So how is sub positive for someone like me that only abused opiates for a month, and never relapsed once being on subs, isnt it just putting off the inevitable for someone in MY situation. Please understand people this does not apply to everyone just people like me that could remember sobriety, and being happy recently, and living a fufilled life. I was HAPPY sober. How is it a positive thing if im gonna have the same chance of relapse as if i quit them cold turkey, isnt it just putting my brain deeper in the hole getting it used to opiates more and more?!?!

I mean come on how many people come on here trying to move down from 32 MG? HOW IS THAT OKAY?!?! LONG TERM MAINTENANCE AT FRIGGIN 32 MGS?!?! when i came off 160 mg of morphine a huge dose and got on sub, even just 8 mg made me pass out for 12 hours straight.


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 Post subject: Re: word up
PostPosted: Wed Apr 06, 2011 5:07 am 
Joseph wrote:
Congratulations Onniegrapples on achieving your sobriety! IMO everything you said sounded right on the money and really hit home for the fact that I have been struggling for so long trying to get of this medicine. Also I don't know if you have the story of how you got of the SUB somewhere else on this site , but if not I am interested in hearing it. Well looking forward to hearing the missing pieces to your journey and until then I wish you continued success in everything. Thank you ~Joseph


Also morphine detox was wayyyy more physically intense, but coming off subs i had a noose ready to hang myself. How is that okay?!?! How is long term use of something with a way longer and more mentally potent detox better?!?! As addicts they are already more mentally weak, putting them in this position is not okay. I really quite the morals of most of these sub docs. I could never even call and get a refill unless i begged, i friggin went there a year, passed every drug test, went on a 21 day hiking trip i the wilderness through a program my doctor has, with four broken ribs scraping against my spine carrying 80lbs on my back 2800 ft straight up a mountain off the map (not on a trail) through heavily wooded areas, and never asked for more than my dose of sub for pain relief. But yet im not responsible enough when its my father on the phone saying he can pick up the script. NO i had to wait through a week of withdrawal to come in so he could make more money. that is so evil and wrong, i feel like they are taking advantage of people in a rough spot, kicking a puppy while hes down is what i felt like putting my life in the hands of a sub doctor. He literally had more control over my life then i did myself. I was more worried about running off sub, and hitting my next taper plan, then the pain i was causing the love of my life. Something is seriously wrong when you think giving an addict something they need to dose with daily to feel normal is some how going to mentally help them through addiction. Getting off sub was way harder then anything i had ever done, in my opinion you can only get but SO READY for the jump. Regardless its going to be difficult, but you can do it.


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 Post subject: congrats!
PostPosted: Wed Apr 06, 2011 10:14 am 
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I think its great that you are off suboxone and doing great! Recovery is a personal journey and it sounds like you are where you are supposed to be! You should be so proud of yourself and I wish you nothing but the best.
I am on 8mg and my Dr and I have laid out a plan for me to be off in 18 mos. I hope it is the case but will listen to my body and go from there. Personally I don't want to be on suboxone forever but again that's me. You are an inspiration...I look forward to the day I wake up and don't need a pill to get through the day. But until then, thank the gods above for suboxone because I would probably be dead without it.


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 Post subject: Well....
PostPosted: Wed Apr 06, 2011 11:13 am 
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I may be annoyed with some of your other responses on other threads, but I think I see better now what is going on with you. First of all, congratulations and thank you. Congratulations on making it to the other side of Sub and thank you for sharing that victory with us. Oddly enough, I agree to a large extent with what you said. I think there is something wrong going on with this all these doctors prescribing big doses of Sub for a very long time. I'm one of those people on it for a long time....since 2005. There are absolutely consequences of taking Sub a long time, and I think many people simply don't want to know about it. I guess that's their business. Personally, I would have liked to have known before I decided to start Sub that I was going to end up with so many severe symptoms and so dang stuck on this drug. I had no clue.If it makes you feel any better, there are quite a few doctors across the country now who are realizing that this has gotten way out of hand and actually care about changing it. I do believe some people need to take Suboxone for the rest of their lives, and I think that should be available to those people. Then, there are the rest of us who truly don't need to take it forever. Suboxone gives people a chance to halt the madness of active addiction and turn the ship around. IMO, for most people, that's what it should be used for. I seriously dislike the notion that there are only two choices, one being taking Suboxone and being sober, and the other being not taking Suboxone and thus relapsing. There IS a third option!! I know what it's like to have side effects and have everyone telling you it cannot be the Sub. I believed that, and believing that made me comfortable with staying on it so long, since I didn't want to have to face getting off it. Now that I'm tapering and seeing the difference in how I feel emotionally and how connected I feel to my life again, it is a shock and a loss. Suboxone is a strong med. I don't know how it makes sense for people to think you will feel the same on it as off it, except that you won't have cravings. If it erases cravings, won't it take other things with it? On the other hand, I'm just so grateful that I finally have figured it out, and that's why I'm going to get off it no matter how hard it is or how long it takes and no matter how crappy the physical side effects may be. I have a huge hole to dig myself out of, but I want out so badly and I know I'll do it. I am not going to tell you that you are going to relapse. You don't have to. I may not be in recovery for opiates, but I'll always be an alcoholic, and a terrible one at that. I have gone since November 23rd of 2005 without a drink and the odds are stacked against alcoholics too. It is very possible to stay sober. You just have to watch your back at all times and never think you are out of the woods. IMO, it sounds like you want very badly to be sober and I believe you can do it. I wish you the best and I hope you will comes back and update a year out and let everyone know that you are still doing well. Oh, and one more thing. I've been told by other former opiate addicts who have gotten off Sub that they are right back to the cravings again, even if they were on Sub for years. That's important to know. When I first quit drinking, I craved like mad, but it gradually disappeared over the years, and I made up my mind to never give into it, regardless of how much a part of me wanted to. I wonder what it would be like if I was on an alcohol Suboxone all these years and then tapered off. I may be right back to craving alcohol. I know you aren't craving opiates right now, but even if you do, just know that over time, it will call your name less and less. And as long as you don't awaken the dragon by throwing it some opiate crumbs, it should all keep getting better and better for you. Good luck!

laddertipper

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Apr 06, 2011 3:36 pm 
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Congrats Onniegrapples on finishing your taper. I'm glad to hear that you are happy and feeling better. I'm sorry that you had a bad experience with Sub and that your taper/withdrawal was so difficult.

I have said this elsewhere on the forum but I'll share it again here. When I first got off Sub, I went through a period of time where I felt kind of "extra." Like my feelings were more intense, music sounded better, I was laughing more and I felt more in touch with myself and my life in general. I was also moody, cried more easily, could be kinda touchy, etc. So I totally understand when people stop Sub and come back and say that they feel more alive and like their emotions have returned and all of that. I think that's completely valid; I experienced that as well.

It was my experience though that that feeling didn't last forever. It could have been that my father died quite unexpectedly just a few months after I finished my taper, or maybe that feeling would have faded anyway as my brain got adjusted to not being on Sub anymore and things just got more normalized. In any case, I look at it now as a type of "honeymoon" period, similar to the one I went through when I first got on Suboxone and similar to what is known as the "Pink Cloud" in recovery circles.

Please know that I am not saying this to be negative or to discount your experience. I just want to share my own experience, for whatever it is worth. I've been off of Sub for 20 months now and if I've learned anything it is that recovery is a process. While I don't have frequent cravings or urges to use anymore, I still have to work at living my life right if I want to stay healthy and have some peace of mind.

So enjoy this new stage of your recovery. You said you were only on opiates for one month, so maybe it will be easier for you to never go back to them. That's great. Keep on doing the things that you love and that make you feel happy and healthy. Life will surely throw you some curve balls at some point - that's just part of being human. Shit happens and we have to deal with it. What I have found is that the more that I take care of myself when things are going well, the better foundation I have to get through the hard times. It is really pretty simple.

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You can't stop the waves, but you can learn to surf.

-Jack Kornfield


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 Post subject: Re: Well....
PostPosted: Wed Apr 06, 2011 3:52 pm 
laddertipper wrote:
I may be annoyed with some of your other responses on other threads, but I think I see better now what is going on with you. First of all, congratulations and thank you. Congratulations on making it to the other side of Sub and thank you for sharing that victory with us. Oddly enough, I agree to a large extent with what you said. I think there is something wrong going on with this all these doctors prescribing big doses of Sub for a very long time. I'm one of those people on it for a long time....since 2005. There are absolutely consequences of taking Sub a long time, and I think many people simply don't want to know about it. I guess that's their business. Personally, I would have liked to have known before I decided to start Sub that I was going to end up with so many severe symptoms and so dang stuck on this drug. I had no clue.If it makes you feel any better, there are quite a few doctors across the country now who are realizing that this has gotten way out of hand and actually care about changing it. I do believe some people need to take Suboxone for the rest of their lives, and I think that should be available to those people. Then, there are the rest of us who truly don't need to take it forever. Suboxone gives people a chance to halt the madness of active addiction and turn the ship around. IMO, for most people, that's what it should be used for. I seriously dislike the notion that there are only two choices, one being taking Suboxone and being sober, and the other being not taking Suboxone and thus relapsing. There IS a third option!! I know what it's like to have side effects and have everyone telling you it cannot be the Sub. I believed that, and believing that made me comfortable with staying on it so long, since I didn't want to have to face getting off it. Now that I'm tapering and seeing the difference in how I feel emotionally and how connected I feel to my life again, it is a shock and a loss. Suboxone is a strong med. I don't know how it makes sense for people to think you will feel the same on it as off it, except that you won't have cravings. If it erases cravings, won't it take other things with it? On the other hand, I'm just so grateful that I finally have figured it out, and that's why I'm going to get off it no matter how hard it is or how long it takes and no matter how crappy the physical side effects may be. I have a huge hole to dig myself out of, but I want out so badly and I know I'll do it. I am not going to tell you that you are going to relapse. You don't have to. I may not be in recovery for opiates, but I'll always be an alcoholic, and a terrible one at that. I have gone since November 23rd of 2005 without a drink and the odds are stacked against alcoholics too. It is very possible to stay sober. You just have to watch your back at all times and never think you are out of the woods. IMO, it sounds like you want very badly to be sober and I believe you can do it. I wish you the best and I hope you will comes back and update a year out and let everyone know that you are still doing well. Oh, and one more thing. I've been told by other former opiate addicts who have gotten off Sub that they are right back to the cravings again, even if they were on Sub for years. That's important to know. When I first quit drinking, I craved like mad, but it gradually disappeared over the years, and I made up my mind to never give into it, regardless of how much a part of me wanted to. I wonder what it would be like if I was on an alcohol Suboxone all these years and then tapered off. I may be right back to craving alcohol. I know you aren't craving opiates right now, but even if you do, just know that over time, it will call your name less and less. And as long as you don't awaken the dragon by throwing it some opiate crumbs, it should all keep getting better and better for you. Good luck!

laddertipper


Can you space your paragraphs, that shit is like impossible to read. Im sorry but can you come back and edit it, i cant even follow it. I got to scan my eyes over to the next line and lose my place everytime. Hang on ill try again but with more concentration. im really not being a jerk it is really hard for me to read.


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 Post subject: Re: Well....
PostPosted: Wed Apr 06, 2011 3:55 pm 
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laddertipper - I think you raised a lot of really good points. I think that a (large) part of the problem is that addiction as a disease so still so poorly understood and so stigmatized. I think there are a lot of doctors now prescribing Sub who really don't know wtf they are doing. I don't think the 8 hour class that doctors take to qualify to prescibe Suboxone does an adequate job of educating doctors about Sub. And as far as the long-term side effects of high-dose buprenorphine, I don't think there has ever been adequate research into the issue. Most of the studies done before the approval of Sub were probably only 6 weeks long.

It's kind of like the issues with certain antidepressants. Most of the studies done to support the approval of a new antidepressant medication are like 6 or maybe 12 weeks long. But once the medication is approved, people end up taking it for much much longer. Then people try to stop taking it and they develop withdrawal symptoms, but since that effect was never studied, doctors deny what is happening. If I had a dollar for every time a doctor denied that what I was experiencing was a result of some psych med that I was taking or had stopped taking...I would have tens of dollars :wink:

But those patients all went online and found that there were thousands of other people suffering the same shit. And now doctors recognize that antidepressants cause withdrawals, or as they put it "discontinuation syndrome." So in a very real way, because of the way the approval process for medications works in the US, we are like guinea pigs in a huge experiment.

Fortunately, some medial professionals are starting to take notice of the experience of Suboxone patients. The manufacturer lowered the higest recommended doseage from 32mgs to 16 or 24, I can't remember exactly...but it's progress. Hopefully they will eventually come out with smaller doses for tapering. And I think there are some doctors who are starting to hear Sub patients concerns about the difficulty of tapering off of Suboxone.

That's why I think it's important for us to tell our stories. Hopefully the medical establishment will hear us and that will make things better for Sub patients in the future. At the very least our experiences are recorded for people to read when they (hopefully) are doing research before they decide to go on Sub.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Apr 06, 2011 3:57 pm 
Diary of a Quitter wrote:
Congrats Onniegrapples on finishing your taper. I'm glad to hear that you are happy and feeling better. I'm sorry that you had a bad experience with Sub and that your taper/withdrawal was so difficult.

I have said this elsewhere on the forum but I'll share it again here. When I first got off Sub, I went through a period of time where I felt kind of "extra." Like my feelings were more intense, music sounded better, I was laughing more and I felt more in touch with myself and my life in general. I was also moody, cried more easily, could be kinda touchy, etc. So I totally understand when people stop Sub and come back and say that they feel more alive and like their emotions have returned and all of that. I think that's completely valid; I experienced that as well.

It was my experience though that that feeling didn't last forever. It could have been that my father died quite unexpectedly just a few months after I finished my taper, or maybe that feeling would have faded anyway as my brain got adjusted to not being on Sub anymore and things just got more normalized. In any case, I look at it now as a type of "honeymoon" period, similar to the one I went through when I first got on Suboxone and similar to what is known as the "Pink Cloud" in recovery circles.

Please know that I am not saying this to be negative or to discount your experience. I just want to share my own experience, for whatever it is worth. I've been off of Sub for 20 months now and if I've learned anything it is that recovery is a process. While I don't have frequent cravings or urges to use anymore, I still have to work at living my life right if I want to stay healthy and have some peace of mind.

So enjoy this new stage of your recovery. You said you were only on opiates for one month, so maybe it will be easier for you to never go back to them. That's great. Keep on doing the things that you love and that make you feel happy and healthy. Life will surely throw you some curve balls at some point - that's just part of being human. Shit happens and we have to deal with it. What I have found is that the more that I take care of myself when things are going well, the better foundation I have to get through the hard times. It is really pretty simple.



Thank you for the awesome post! I totally know what you mean by the honeymoon period i really do, but thats over now. And i am a runner, i fight mma, and do a plethora of other sports. After that honeymoon period was over it still felt a thousand times more intense and enjoyable doing these activities. Not to mention i never noticed this into i grappled because you have to think so much, but when on sub when i started moving a lot and getting my endorphins moving, i had this clouded feeling in my head and couldnt think moves ahead of an opponent. I thought i just had that "runners high" but it really bothered me, it was like my mind was blank and i was just operating off of muscle memory.

Once off sub, it was like my mind was always on the same wave length and i could truly think what move to do next, to get the tap on my opponent. It felt amazing.

I just feel sub is mostly prescribed wrong, and the words of some of the users here, make people think recovery is almost impossible, i know i thought it was after reading here. Sub long term is over rated, do you agree? I AM NOT SAYING ITS NOT FOR SOME PEOPLE, but i believe it is over used, and at way too high of doses. Input?


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 Post subject: Re: Well....
PostPosted: Wed Apr 06, 2011 4:06 pm 
Diary of a Quitter wrote:
laddertipper - I think you raised a lot of really good points. I think that a (large) part of the problem is that addiction as a disease so still so poorly understood and so stigmatized. I think there are a lot of doctors now prescribing Sub who really don't know wtf they are doing. I don't think the 8 hour class that doctors take to qualify to prescibe Suboxone does an adequate job of educating doctors about Sub. And as far as the long-term side effects of high-dose buprenorphine, I don't think there has ever been adequate research into the issue. Most of the studies done before the approval of Sub were probably only 6 weeks long.

It's kind of like the issues with certain antidepressants. Most of the studies done to support the approval of a new antidepressant medication are like 6 or maybe 12 weeks long. But once the medication is approved, people end up taking it for much much longer. Then people try to stop taking it and they develop withdrawal symptoms, but since that effect was never studied, doctors deny what is happening. If I had a dollar for every time a doctor denied that what I was experiencing was a result of some psych med that I was taking or had stopped taking...I would have tens of dollars :wink:

But those patients all went online and found that there were thousands of other people suffering the same shit. And now doctors recognize that antidepressants cause withdrawals, or as they put it "discontinuation syndrome." So in a very real way, because of the way the approval process for medications works in the US, we are like guinea pigs in a huge experiment.

Fortunately, some medial professionals are starting to take notice of the experience of Suboxone patients. The manufacturer lowered the higest recommended doseage from 32mgs to 16 or 24, I can't remember exactly...but it's progress. Hopefully they will eventually come out with smaller doses for tapering. And I think there are some doctors who are starting to hear Sub patients concerns about the difficulty of tapering off of Suboxone.

That's why I think it's important for us to tell our stories. Hopefully the medical establishment will hear us and that will make things better for Sub patients in the future. At the very least our experiences are recorded for people to read when they (hopefully) are doing research before they decide to go on Sub.



Wow, im really glad i came back here now, this is a complete change of pace from some of the post i received before. I really didnt expect this, and i agree one hundred percent i have talked about this at length with people. Just because during the trials no one had withdrawals after a short period, doctors practically tell you your lieing and a baby.

I hated my sub doc, he was a flippin jerk. He practically told me i was imaging the symptoms, even though i was tough enough to run a half marathons, after starting running for friggin 3 weeks on subs.

But about life long use, i dont agree with it. Ive seen how it rots out peoples teeth, and i think even injections would be better for you then sublingual use. Also i believe the longer you are on it, the more out of a wack your receptors get and you become less and less human over time. I hate that zombie like look i get from people on opiates over a couple years. I highly doubt anyone in this thread has that, as there responses show emotion and humanity, which is awesome! give me hope everyone here cares about there body!


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Apr 06, 2011 5:02 pm 
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I am on .038mg and I already feel that amazing burst of emotions and zest for life that your describing. So I totally agree with all your comments about what it means to be off subs. Its AMAZING bro, freakin amazing. And I am not even at zero yet!


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 06, 2011 5:09 pm 
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Onni,

Congrats for getting to be where you want to be! I think its awesome.

I am suprised though that you felt your post would be offensive. I have been reading on here for a long time (even though I am a new member) and honestly feel that the people here are supportive no matter what the poster is going through. This site is supportive of people who choose sub, meetings, or total abstnance from medications. I think the members are honest when they say stoping sub mostly does lead to relapse because that has been studied. It does not mean it applies to everyone though.

I am also suprised you got on sub after only using opiates for a month. That seems wierd to me. I would think something else would have been tried first. I was putting needles into my arms for four years. I knew all about suboxone before I put it in my mouth because I was able to research it before I went to detox. I do realize that some people cant.

I have trouble though when I read people bashing sub doctors in general. I have a great doctor. He is an addictionologist who takes my insurance. I pay 20 bucks to see him and 20 bucks for my script of 30 pills. (8mg) He drug tests me everytime I am in there. He sits with me for at least 30 min and asks about my life and other support systems I have in place. He originally thought I would be on subs for about a year. But he has been flexible as other issues have come up since I have been seeing him, so I am staying on it for a while. So not ALL sub doctors are greedy and ignorant.

Lastly, I do consider myself sober while on subs. I am not using any medication a doctor hasn't given me. I am using the correct dose in the correct way. I know I have an opiate in my system that I am dependent on. I am not acting like a fool stealing drugs and obsessing about opiates. I guess some people have a different definition of sober and I think that is OK.

Like I said, I think its great that you are off everything and that you feel so much better! And I think this is a great place for both of us to get support!


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 06, 2011 6:30 pm 
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Okay, Onni, thanks for letting me know that you are not trying to be a jerk. You do kinda come across that way, but I see you are basically very straightforward, which is better than a BSer, so it's okay. I'm not trying to be a jerk either. Sorry for my scrunched words. I think fast and type fast and it adds up fast. I'll try to space it out better.

laddertipper

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First you take a drink, then the drink takes a drink, then the drink takes you. ~F. Scott Fitzgerald


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 07, 2011 5:23 am 
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Ladder, I just wanted to say that I didn't have any trouble whatsoever reading your single paragraph response. And being someone who tends to take issue now and then with spelling, grammer, etc... Anyhow, it was very easy to read, follow, and understand - including your grasp and understanding between the words "there" and "their". Just sayin. :)


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 Post subject: Thank you Don...
PostPosted: Thu Apr 07, 2011 6:26 am 
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I could not have said it better...


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 07, 2011 11:16 am 
Me too, ladder! I don't have much trouble reading through a large paragraph at all. Especially when it's well written and not full of misspellings and run-on sentences! Then again, I tend to write a lot like you do.....long and in single paragraphs often times! Whatever....it's neither here nor there to me! Almost every one of us here, whether good at spelling and grammar, etc or not, have something of value to say.
I must say that at the beginning of this thread I felt Onnie came off a bit harsh, accusatory and defensive. On the other hand, he had very valid things to say in that post and I tend to agree with a lot of what was said. I agree with you, Onnie, that this board tends to lean far toward being quite pro-Suboxone. After all, the founder/owner of this site is pro-Suboxone...a physician perscriber of the drug and a recovering opiate addict himself. The moderator who is around here the most (Hatmaker) is on buprenorphine not only for addiction, but for chronic pain as well, and states openly that she has no plans to discontinue the drug. It also happens that several of the most 'vocal' members over the course of the past year or so, are either in situations similar to Hatmaker's, or they have tried unsuccessfully to discontinue bupe and found that they need to continue it indefinitely as well. In my opinion, it's only natural that there will be a tendency for all of us to gravitate toward the opinion or theory that best 'fits' our own situation.
As has been discussed here, there truly is limited information out there about the long-term effects of high dose buprenorphine. However, there is a good deal of data regarding drug addiction and the long-term effects of that! So, you know, I'm inclined to remain "on the fence" on a lot of this stuff. To me, there are obvious situations in which it is a far better idea to be on Sub for life.....with the other options being 'jails, institutions, or death.' To me, that applies to the hard-core addict, the lifer, so to speak, with a lifetime history of drug abuse, recurrent relapses despite attempts at sobriety, etc.
Someone like the OP, with a reported "one-month" history of opiate abuse....I don't get that at all. If I were you, I'd be pissed off as well! I can't see any indication for Suboxone with a history like that. I can't imagine any compentent physician prescribing it without being certain that the patient even meets the DSM criteria for addiction/dependence! Really unbelievable. I agree with all that's been said about there being a need for physicians to be better educated about this drug before being allowed to Rx it. And I believe it IS the physician's responsibility to educate their patient before prescribing them this potent, difficult-to-discontinue drug. In a perfect world, all individuals would be more cautious before putting anything into their body, but we're not living in a perfect world. We're talking about (for the most part) desperate drug addicts who are looking for a way out. That being the case, again, I believe these doctors should be held accountable for seeing to it that their patients know exactly what they're getting into when starting buprenophine treatment.
I won't continue on and on, here. Congratulations Onnie for getting off Sub! I think it's fantastic! Although others may disagree, I don't doubt for a second that you feel better, more alive, etc off the drug than while on it.....no doubt in my mind. I think sometimes it's just a matter of 'degrees' of well-being, if you will. The highest (in my opinion) is completely free from any and all mind or mood altering substances.....that has been my goal since starting Suboxone. The next degree, perhaps, is free from all those things except for buprenorphine. Followed by (just my opinion) buprenorphine but still clinging to other substances such as marijuana or alcohol in moderation. And further down the line, varying degrees of active addiction with or without buprenorphine use. I just believe that we all sort of form our own definition of what a "healthy recovery" is. There are many who believe that they are practicing a healthy recovery while on Sub and off opiates, yet they continue to drink alcohol to the point of intoxication and/or continue to smoke pot; while there are others who subscribe to a much more distinct definition of "recovery" in which all areas of their life must line up....no illicit drug/alcohol use, general practices of healthy living, certain spiritual practices, etc must all be in place in order to feel confident in their sobriety. There is just a lot left to the individual. What is considered a good quality of life to one, may not be to another. Hopefully that makes some sense!
Again....congrats Onnie! It's awesome that you've found your way off Sub. I hope you will continue to share your experiences and help others as well! I'm glad you started this thread....there are lots of interesting and valuable things here that everyone has shared here!


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 07, 2011 12:02 pm 
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Wow, thanks guys. I have people! :lol:

Setmefree, that was an awesome post. I truly could not have said it one bit better.

laddertipper

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First you take a drink, then the drink takes a drink, then the drink takes you. ~F. Scott Fitzgerald


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 10, 2011 1:14 am 
setmefree wrote:
Me too, ladder! I don't have much trouble reading through a large paragraph at all. Especially when it's well written and not full of misspellings and run-on sentences! Then again, I tend to write a lot like you do.....long and in single paragraphs often times! Whatever....it's neither here nor there to me! Almost every one of us here, whether good at spelling and grammar, etc or not, have something of value to say.
I must say that at the beginning of this thread I felt Onnie came off a bit harsh, accusatory and defensive. On the other hand, he had very valid things to say in that post and I tend to agree with a lot of what was said. I agree with you, Onnie, that this board tends to lean far toward being quite pro-Suboxone. After all, the founder/owner of this site is pro-Suboxone...a physician perscriber of the drug and a recovering opiate addict himself. The moderator who is around here the most (Hatmaker) is on buprenorphine not only for addiction, but for chronic pain as well, and states openly that she has no plans to discontinue the drug. It also happens that several of the most 'vocal' members over the course of the past year or so, are either in situations similar to Hatmaker's, or they have tried unsuccessfully to discontinue bupe and found that they need to continue it indefinitely as well. In my opinion, it's only natural that there will be a tendency for all of us to gravitate toward the opinion or theory that best 'fits' our own situation.
As has been discussed here, there truly is limited information out there about the long-term effects of high dose buprenorphine. However, there is a good deal of data regarding drug addiction and the long-term effects of that! So, you know, I'm inclined to remain "on the fence" on a lot of this stuff. To me, there are obvious situations in which it is a far better idea to be on Sub for life.....with the other options being 'jails, institutions, or death.' To me, that applies to the hard-core addict, the lifer, so to speak, with a lifetime history of drug abuse, recurrent relapses despite attempts at sobriety, etc.
Someone like the OP, with a reported "one-month" history of opiate abuse....I don't get that at all. If I were you, I'd be pissed off as well! I can't see any indication for Suboxone with a history like that. I can't imagine any compentent physician prescribing it without being certain that the patient even meets the DSM criteria for addiction/dependence! Really unbelievable. I agree with all that's been said about there being a need for physicians to be better educated about this drug before being allowed to Rx it. And I believe it IS the physician's responsibility to educate their patient before prescribing them this potent, difficult-to-discontinue drug. In a perfect world, all individuals would be more cautious before putting anything into their body, but we're not living in a perfect world. We're talking about (for the most part) desperate drug addicts who are looking for a way out. That being the case, again, I believe these doctors should be held accountable for seeing to it that their patients know exactly what they're getting into when starting buprenophine treatment.
I won't continue on and on, here. Congratulations Onnie for getting off Sub! I think it's fantastic! Although others may disagree, I don't doubt for a second that you feel better, more alive, etc off the drug than while on it.....no doubt in my mind. I think sometimes it's just a matter of 'degrees' of well-being, if you will. The highest (in my opinion) is completely free from any and all mind or mood altering substances.....that has been my goal since starting Suboxone. The next degree, perhaps, is free from all those things except for buprenorphine. Followed by (just my opinion) buprenorphine but still clinging to other substances such as marijuana or alcohol in moderation. And further down the line, varying degrees of active addiction with or without buprenorphine use. I just believe that we all sort of form our own definition of what a "healthy recovery" is. There are many who believe that they are practicing a healthy recovery while on Sub and off opiates, yet they continue to drink alcohol to the point of intoxication and/or continue to smoke pot; while there are others who subscribe to a much more distinct definition of "recovery" in which all areas of their life must line up....no illicit drug/alcohol use, general practices of healthy living, certain spiritual practices, etc must all be in place in order to feel confident in their sobriety. There is just a lot left to the individual. What is considered a good quality of life to one, may not be to another. Hopefully that makes some sense!
Again....congrats Onnie! It's awesome that you've found your way off Sub. I hope you will continue to share your experiences and help others as well! I'm glad you started this thread....there are lots of interesting and valuable things here that everyone has shared here!


I say it really hurt my eyes to read ladders post, so what do you do, make a huge jumbled mass. Once again *sigh* seriously?! I am really really not trying to be a jerk but no way i can read that at all.


But on another side note, thanks to everyone being positive here, it is a huge change of heart from last time, i think peoples opinions are slowly changing since the core group here is closer to being clean. And ladder your post on the music thread is awesome, doesnt it sound so much better! I am glad i came back once again.

And ladder it seems like your opinion has changed now that you are getting lower and lower on your doses, am i correct in thinking this?!?! You seemed to think it had very little side effects a couple months ago, but you seem very excited now and "seeing the light" as i call it. If it wasnt that much greater than being on sub than would it really be worth all this pain ya know?!

Also Setmefree i read the first three lines, it seems like you did it just to be kinda a smart ass, let me know if im wrong but i cant really see why you would do it directly after i said i can't read post like that. So writing a lot, and fast = Unable to hit the enter key?!?!

Its three spaces to the right of the L key lol. I write extremely fast as my aunt is one of the best stenographers in the country and i have been building computers since i was i the 7 th grade. I can get up to rediculous speeds and am known for typing 5 pages in a couple minutes. That has nothing to do with in ability to space or hit the enter key. If you can come back and edit i will have no problem replying to the post. But to me it just seems disrespectful that right after i complain about it you go out of your way to do it.


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