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PostPosted: Thu Apr 14, 2011 3:16 am 
hatmaker510 wrote:
The above post by onni was edited for offensive content on 4/13/2011 at 6:31 am by hatmaker510.

Consider this your FINAL WARNING. ANY FURTHER INFRACTIONS AND YOU WILL BE BANNED. PERSONAL ATTACKS AGAINST ANYONE HERE, BE IT OTHER MEMBERS, MODERATORS, OR DR. JUNIG, ARE NOT ALLOWED AND WILL NOT BE TOLERATED. NO FURTHER WARNINGS WILL BE GIVEN.


Lol i dont hold this website dear to me like you do. Ban me your the one treating it like god damn north korea.

Whats a matter you want to censor your readers?



I know your story and ways hatmaker, if you really want people to have the information why censor me?

Funny how you removed that, too bad everyone in this thread already has it despite your failed efforts.

You can BAN me, but i have already reached over 100 people here with the same effort you tried to get to me with your horrible cult writing and denial.

Ban me for spreading truth and free information. Who knows maybe your upset with your cult problems etc, etc. But i can't change you like you think you can change me with a ban. My skin is a thousand times more thick than yours, and by the time your deleting this and its actually bothering you deep down. Im off running in the morning spamming another hundred people with uncensored messagens. And living a very fufilling life not based around a drug. Just cause something bothers you doesnt mean it matters two shits to someone else. Just like with dr junigs fake compassion and use of scare tactics all over his blog. And with you thinking i actually care about this forum , its a vehicle for me to fight censorship.

Peace out, youve already failed censoring me and its hillarious to show how futile your efforts are.

Go ahead IP ban me, by the time you do that ive sent 20 more people messages. And your actually talking to someone who knows computers, ill be back on sending messages to people before you can bat an eye. CLICK CLICK CLICK TYPE TYPE TYPE about how sub is your cult. Censor dr junig sounding a thousand times more rediculous than me. And point me out to be the pain of the sub people. You will never actually convince yourself we are the enemy. But dr junig does a damn good job of convincing you guys.

You guys are your own worst enemies. Hatmaker im not even point my efforts at you, your long gone jabba the hut life revolved around sub type. I feel sorry for you, you will never truly live. Have fun sharing your misery being so ignorant you think you are getting to me. When i am unmovable because i dont have some sensitives ass ego from this website where i get my butt hurt cause im drugged out and think i have a RIGHT to be. You just spew rhetoric and its hillarious. While you are SERIOUSLY typing paragraphs of just omg thats not politcally correct. Your leader is talking shit about all of you behind your backs.

Either way you put it censorship about something someone takes everyday is wrong. You guys almost had me in the cult but i escaped and its like being REBORN AGAIN. And if its so easy to get off and nothings wrong, honestly tell me your off it? O wait 99 percent of you arent. Honestly tell me your not on it because of fear of withdrawal?


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 Post subject: Onnie ???
PostPosted: Thu Apr 14, 2011 6:34 am 
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Why all the hate ? why are you so proud of it ? why stand behind the moderators power to deny you access when that has NOT happened.. this not your normal forum, people around here do care and have the ability to love.. I hope you can grow from what ever is going on in your life, Good Luck. Mike


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 14, 2011 6:55 am 
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The final post above by Onniegrapples has been edited on this date by hatmaker510 at 6:51 am - again, for offensive content.

If anyone has any questions, please feel free to contact a moderator.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 14, 2011 2:57 pm 
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Good move Hat, and long overdue. Very clearly you and the other mods gave him more than enough opportunity to clean up his act. Everyone else bent over backwards to try to reach out to him as well. I completely support taking action.

That said, I do have to ask, why was the web site link removed from his post? I can certainly understand and support removing "offensive content". However, what is "offensive" or inappropriate about a link to a page with a complaint about Dr J? That sounds to me much more like censorship. And I've already said dozens of times how I hate censorship. Besides, I think Dr. J stood up very well for himself in that link. Not cool removing something like that. Just not cool at all - no matter what the motivations are. How does that old saying go... I may not agree with what you have to say but I'll fight to the death your right to say it. Hopefully you'll explain why something like this was censored. Thanks and keep up the otherwise great work.


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 14, 2011 4:10 pm 
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Well, I saw the link before it got removed and I agree with you Donh, that Dr. J. did a pretty good job of addressing it. However, I still ended up basically siding with the person who made the complaint. But one thing I took note of was when Dr. J mentioned that the complainer only shared SOME of the email exchanges between himself and Dr. J. In fact, it looked to me like both the complainer and Dr. J over-reacted and ended up taking hostile tones with each other and ultimately both sounded unfortunately sarcastic, overly-emotiona and hostile to each other. Well, that can happen to the best of us. In fact, i think the entire problem may have been that Dr. J misunderstood the complainer saying that he felt something was "misleading." I think he meant he had expected something different from the advertisement of the tapes he ordered, not actually "misled" by the tapes, which Dr. J seemed to think he meant the latter, and Dr. J was upset by that. Well, I realize this won't make any sense to anyone who didn't see that link before it got removed...sorry about that...

So, regarding censorship and the forum, the thing is, although this forum is open to the public, it's really a privately run website, it's not like it's a government site or something. I'm not for censorship either, but...I basically accept that reason as enough--there's no expectation of "freedom of the press' here. Freedom of speech does exist, but the moderators also have the freedom to remove stuff. Which you have to admit, they dont' do very much of that. The bottom line is this is Dr. J's website and...he has the right to control what goes on it, or at least, what stays on it, and the right to give the moderators control over that too. That's how I've come to see it anyway, and like I said, I accept that. On the other hand, I'm NOT crazy about anything being deleted, no matter how offensive, honestly, because of my own curiosity--it drives me crazy when there's discussion about something that's been deleted before i got to see it. Also, in this particular case, although I agree with Donh that Dr. J did a pretty good job of defending himself in that link to the complaint site--I also think that the emails published there did make Dr. J look bad--in fact it even changed my opinion of him to an extent. The complaint is still published on that complaint site. If someone wants to search online for complaints about Dr. Junig, they certainly can. No one is trying to stop people from doing that. But the way I see it, why should Dr. J leave up a link like that on his own website? Just as...I might want to remove an unflattering picture of myself that someone posted on my facebook wall, that's how I see it. And to be fair here, I assume it wasn't Dr. J who removed the link, it was one of the moderators who edited the post. Well, they have the discretion to do that, and although, as I said, I'm not for it, actually I tend to HATE it (because of my curiosity) I accept that they have the right to do it because this isn't a publicly run site and it isn't a case of Free Press. Unless I'm wrong about that, of course. I'm against censorship too and I prefer that the mods leave everything up no matter how inflammatory, untrue or ridiculous, for me to sort through on my own (and believe me I skip over quite a bit of stuff on here and read other stuff, like Onniegrapples's posts for instance, purely for entertainment value, I find it is like being drawn into the worst kind of sensationalist television or magazine tabloids--I admit, I can get drawn in). So, if anyone has some argument as to why a private website ought be obligated to adhere strictly to Freedom of Speech (also, deleting stuff after it's posted--is that even a violation of Freedom of Speech? Where is the rule that posts have to be left up indefinitely?)--actually I'm interested to hear of it. And open to changing my mind about this too. But overall, my feeling is that what happens on this forum isn't a case where I'm really worried about constitutional rights because private parties DO have the right to edit content of what they choose to publish. Like I said, I'm open to hearing further opinion on this, but i won't promise to keep discussing it too much, because i think I've summed up all I have to say about it really. I'll just end by saying, I'm glad I saw the link before it got deleted and I don't mind if it gets undeleted, even though i can totally understand why it was taken down and I'm ok with that too.


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 14, 2011 4:41 pm 
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Auto said a lot of what I was going to say. This is not a public site - it's Dr. Junig's private forum. Why should there be a link to a complaint site about him in it? This also isn't a government entity or a democracy either, again, just a private forum.

Also, as was said and as was agreed to at registration, Dr. J, administrators, and moderators have the right to edit, delete/remove content as they see fit. I saw fit to do so.

I also do not want new members and guests equating using suboxone as a treatment for their opiate addiction to one single's person's biased negative opinion about Dr. J. Something that now as this discussion has taken place may still happen anyway, I'm sorry to say.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 15, 2011 6:01 am 
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well.... I think it's wrong to delete that link.
I know this is a private website, but I mean if you got nothing to hide, then why the hurry to delete it? I've read the discussion on that website. And my opinion is neutral. Dr. Junig is simply a human being. A human being gets upset sometimes, angry etc. I don't see the hassle here. There was nothing that wrong with that discussion that the link would be removed. I don't value Dr. Junig's work less after reading that discussion.
I think you even made it worse now by deleting it. That way you tell ppl you don't want them to see something for some reason of yours. So they tend to think it has to be something bad?
I think you should let the ppl decide wheter they wanna read it, and let them make their own conclusions. It's like you're deciding for them. Like you said Hatmaker, "I don't want new members and guest equating using suboX as treatment". That's wrong in my opinion. That way you're so biased and acting like some politician who's trying to hide his dirty laundry. You want ppl to see what YOU want to them to see?
Just let the 'em decide what to think of it! Don't suppress the little freedom we have? ppl come here to look for support and for HoNeST feedback and expect it from decent ppl.
But I think that this action showed me that this site doesn't want to have a single tiny stain on it's record, so you would have to watch what you're saying? Or you would get censored.
Once again I say, I see nothing wrong with that link and I would post it myself again, but that would get me flamed.... Although I don't like it, I have to respect the wishes of the owner. Like said, it's a pvt site so basically you can do whatever the hell you wanna do. (don't get that the bad way, it's not ment that way)
I'm still going to participate in this community 'cause I can talk to ppl hat share some kind of life aspect e.g. suboX/addiction. But I'm not glad the link has been deleted, and don't like the politics of it. :-/

I just needed to say all that. I hope you don't get it the wrong way. It's just my opinion on this matter.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 15, 2011 8:08 am 
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I'm new here and just registered, but I've been reading stuff for a long time now. Since I just registered, I just read the stuff that Hatmaker510 mentioned how they can delete whatever they want. And I know I'm new, but it makes sense to me. It's not hiding stuff. I mean if it was my site, why would I refer someone to a complaint sight about me? If they look on their own, great, but why point it out to them? I don't see it as censorship, cuz like people said, it's not a public place - it's Dr. Junig's personal website. As a new person,it's probably not my place to get into the discussion, but I wanted to add my opinion. I hope it's OK.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 15, 2011 8:50 am 
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hey chris! welcome to the forum.
I just stated my opinion, how I see it. It doesn't need to be right. I could be wrong all the way, but that's what others opinions are for :-)
Feel free to flame me if you will. I didn't want to insult or attack anyone just to be be clear with that.
It's just weird to call it a personal site? I can't see it that way cuz there are so many ppl here. I'd rather call it a community, found by Dr. Junig.
peace out :-)


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 15, 2011 9:46 am 
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It's a community in the broad sense of the definition but not in the sense of it being joint ownership. Plus I've been on alot of other forums and talk about censorship! Like I said, I've been reading stuff here for a really long time and I hardly ever see anything censored, but it does happen sometimes. I decided to join here cuz it's a pro-sub place. I was sick of all the other places hating on sub and hating people for taking it. Oh and I wasn't trying to "flame" you. I'm new and just wanted to add my opinion...I don't want to start out on the wrong foot. Maybe I should shut up already.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 15, 2011 9:48 am 
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bupeAddict wrote:
hey chris! welcome to the forum.
I just stated my opinion, how I see it. It doesn't need to be right. I could be wrong all the way, but that's what others opinions are for :-)
Feel free to flame me if you will. I didn't want to insult or attack anyone just to be be clear with that.
It's just weird to call it a personal site? I can't see it that way cuz there are so many ppl here. I'd rather call it a community, found by Dr. Junig.
peace out :-)


Dont feel like flaming you, because i tend to agree. Cencorship is all fine if you use it to prevent people from earfucking addicts in a difficult stage of recovery. On the other hand, to hard cencorship just dont work these day. If some information is put on the internet, then its on the internet and people will just find it anyways - maybe places where it wont be debated, debunked or discussed.
The link Onio posted is debatable i would say though. He was spamming it, which means it prolly would have been deleted on most sites. And there is allso the possible trolling/flaming intend behind posting it to consider imo.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 15, 2011 10:18 am 
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yeah, he DiD post it with the probable intent of attacking the reputation of this site and it's creator. I guess onnie was just revolted, for his reasons.
I understand and agree to some degree with some of his viewpoints, but I also see he's too damn aggressive and maybe crossed the line. Well although I respect some of his views/statements, you just can't violate someone elses rules and force your opinion on others. It's a relative point of view.
So, I don't think it's appropriate to talk that Xtreme way anywhere, not just here.
But is that a reason to remove the LiNK? sorry if I'm makin' a big deal out of a link, but I would like to get the point of that. Or maybe onnine's right? U tell me


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 15, 2011 1:51 pm 
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Well, I wanted to edit something from my last post but it was too late...so...I just wanted to say I'm sorry about what I said about reading posts like Onnie's just for entertainment value--I really did not mean to imply that the forum has a low quality of posting--actually there's tons of valuable info to be found here and many thoughtful and intelligent posters. Plus, it wasn't compassionate at all for me to say that about Onnie. I was just put off by his anger but then I remembered how sometimes after going through withdrawal I had a phase of really bad temper and sometimes unreasonable anger and hatefulness. I may have said some pretty inexcusable things in that state in the past. It was way hard to deal with or control too. I jsut hope I dont' have to suffer through any more horrible episodes of that in the future. Anyway, I saw Bupeaddict saying something about "an addict in a difficult stage of recovery" and it made me think. that doesnt' mean its ok for anyone to post in an inappropriate manner on teh forum, but still, I shouldn't have said what i did and reduced someone's posts to "entertainment value." It really isn't and this is my apology. that 's the trouble with anger and hatred and hostility, it tends to breed more of the same...But people did reach out to Onnie and he just didn't seem able to calm down. As for deleting posts, etc, I pretty much stand by my previous post. I'm not sure I'm right about it either, but that's how I see it.


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 16, 2011 8:58 am 
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Hmmmmm....well, curiosity got the better of me so I had to go and find this "complaint" and read it.

All I see is two people, whether addict or former, whether doctor or layperson, who are in a battle of "their way or the highway" :)

I think if something has worked for a person, they will push it to the ends of the earth to others, believing it will work for them.
It is also human nature that if we feel "attacked", we immediately set up a defensive stance.

I would've felt a lot better about the exchange if "deletives" had not been used,( i.e., jac*&*....etc...) I really feel that if you have to use those to get your point across that you've already lost the battle.

This, in no way, undermines Dr. Junig to me and the work he is trying to do. He, no doubt, has helped hundreds of addicts in his career, has walked this road himself and provides this forum for me and I am grateful. He is a doctor but he is also a human being...human being get mad, have emotions, etc...it's ok!
My reaction is that this was between two people about their beliefs on recovery and to go posting it all over the internet was somewhat childish...Dr. Junig told him he would give him his refund...isn't that what he wanted?

I still have a gut feeling that this thread was created with an agenda in mind...maybe to ultimately post that link...can't shake that feeling....too much anger, hostility and cruelty.
I don't believe in censorship either but as this is a privately owned forum, they certainly have that right and if you are posting here, then understand that fact.

As there are many people here who are at "fragile" stages in the bupe process and can be easily suggested to...I am glad that we have moderators to look out for things. There was a cruelty in the posts that did not sit right with me...whatever someone is going through, it is never ok to be out and out cruel.

Hope this offends no one and all said in my most humble opinion...


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