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PostPosted: Sun Apr 10, 2011 1:34 am 
Orange doll wrote:
Onni,

Congrats for getting to be where you want to be! I think its awesome.

I am suprised though that you felt your post would be offensive. I have been reading on here for a long time (even though I am a new member) and honestly feel that the people here are supportive no matter what the poster is going through. This site is supportive of people who choose sub, meetings, or total abstnance from medications. I think the members are honest when they say stoping sub mostly does lead to relapse because that has been studied. It does not mean it applies to everyone though.

I am also suprised you got on sub after only using opiates for a month. That seems wierd to me. I would think something else would have been tried first. I was putting needles into my arms for four years. I knew all about suboxone before I put it in my mouth because I was able to research it before I went to detox. I do realize that some people cant.

I have trouble though when I read people bashing sub doctors in general. I have a great doctor. He is an addictionologist who takes my insurance. I pay 20 bucks to see him and 20 bucks for my script of 30 pills. (8mg) He drug tests me everytime I am in there. He sits with me for at least 30 min and asks about my life and other support systems I have in place. He originally thought I would be on subs for about a year. But he has been flexible as other issues have come up since I have been seeing him, so I am staying on it for a while. So not ALL sub doctors are greedy and ignorant.

Lastly, I do consider myself sober while on subs. I am not using any medication a doctor hasn't given me. I am using the correct dose in the correct way. I know I have an opiate in my system that I am dependent on. I am not acting like a fool stealing drugs and obsessing about opiates. I guess some people have a different definition of sober and I think that is OK.

Like I said, I think its great that you are off everything and that you feel so much better! And I think this is a great place for both of us to get support!


Lol i thought my doctor was awesome until it came time to get off the sub after being on it for a year. These were his exact fucking words ( I was at 2mgs at the time he said this) Take two mgs for 4 days, 1 mg for 4 days, then half a mg every other day then stop. He said anything you will be feeling after that is purely mental, and this is a dude that says hes treated thousands of sub patients. WTF?!?!?!? I told him about the long half life and he just kinda shrugged it off like what does this addict know, i wanted to reach across the table and show him what a trained fighter could do to him . But i kept my cool.

My point is how is this healthy? Telling a patient that Anything you feel after an extremely fast taper off a 37.5 hours half life drug you have been building in your system will be purely mental. Imagine how helpless i would have felt if i wasnt intellectual enough to research myself. That scares the shit out of me he said hes had thousand of sub patients, so what do the ones that cant get off just stay on it forever and deal with him telling them they are mentally weak. What a fucking joke he just acts like the sub is a miracle drug and these people are just making up all there symptons, all the friggin 500 hundred of em trying to get off but can't. Truly messed up, but what does he care as long as he gets paid.

Also i dont know if i mentioned it on this thread but he had that 21 day trip outdoor hiking thing as rehabilitation for kids, i was pretty much forced into it against my will, actually i am pretty sure i mentioned it in this thread, but fast forward i was the one kid that wasnt a pussy so i had to carry 80 lbs of water on my back 2800 ft up hill. I didnt complain at all but i had proof that i had 2 ribs pulled out of my spine before that, and they all treated me like shit, even though i was obviously tougher than the 3 adult running the trip and the other people with me. I even went on runs after they were all torn up from hiking, but i ripped the last two out of my ribs and was shaking in searing pain. They just fucking told me to suck it up and acted like i was faking it.

Ugh i just wish i could bring those fuckers into my world, bring em on the mat and throw em around for a good hour, and when they start to cry and pain i can tell them they are faking it. Going through all that abuse made me really vindictive so i just stopped seeing him before i said anything stupid. But that is not even half the abuse they did. They has to submit a report for my court case so i could show i did something. Well they made me out to be this big complainer cause of my ribs, so i got locked up for 6 days and went through detox cause my sub doctor PROMISED me i could get them in jail. So boom im in jail with 4 other people in my cell puking and shitting all over myself. with 4 ribs recently pulled out of my back, all thanks to this one doctor that is supposed to be HELPING ME. HOW THE FUCK IS THIS HELP, i got off probation after that and it was from a charge before i turned 18 so i have a perfectly spotless record so it didnt affect me in the long term.

But thats NOT the point, yes it didnt mess up my life in the long run but i went through HELL, i told him i come from an extremely abusive household, i mean shit i have scars all over my face and head from where i got 80 staples and almost died from my dad beating my ass with a weight. Yet this is how the dude tries to help me, i say hey i dont wanna go on the trip man im in a lot of pain, i am a very high level athlete so its not the physical challenge or mentality thats scaring me man, im just in a lot of pain let me get it fixed. So i friggin tear two out on the trip, and then im thinking this trip i suffered my ass through and dealt with selfish shit heads for 21 days through would MAYBE help me in court, nope made me out to be a complainer and everything and got me locked up, and on top of that went through horrible detox cause i actually believed my doctor cared about me.

Sorry about the long rant but thats not even 25 percent of what my doctor did to me, i would love to castrate him and get him hooked on sub. Wait till hes going through detox and drag him onto the mats and choke him out for a good hour, then pull four ribs out of his spine so he can feel my pain, then laugh my fucking ass off at him like they all did to me.

How do people sleep with themselves after doing this under the false pretense of help, This doctor single handedly ruined my life. Talked down to me like nothing i said was real because im an "addict" for taking morphine after i broke 15 bones through triple a hockey and fighting. I asked him if hes ever had a serious injury to which he replied no, yet im an addict that need to be put on sub for a year just cause i took opiates responsibly for one month because of serious pain no 17 yr old should feel. (19 now)

WHAT THA FUCK SUB DOCTORS?!??! Dr george bright im talking about you , you little shit head


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 Post subject: Onnie
PostPosted: Sun Apr 10, 2011 2:43 am 
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Sheesh, yes, you are actually right. Not that many months ago, I would have read what you've written and called you nuts. I do see it entirely differently now. It IS different once you actually go through it. I've had three Sub docs and none of them have understood this med. I still cannot find a doc who can explain it to me. I've heard Sub doesn't affect your emotions, and then I've heard "of course, it affects your emotions; how could it not? And who in the world would say it doesn't?" This is a huge problem and it's getting bigger and bigger as more and more people who started Sub and thought it was the answer are trying to get off it and either cannot do it or can do it but are crazy miserable doing so or miserable after they've gotten off. My best friend, who I thought was going to have an easy time of it, is getting worse after three weeks. She's not in bed. WTF!? There are exceptions, but in general, people have a very hard time with this. The magnitude and amount of erroneous information being put out as fact is so reprehensible to me. To be told it's all in our heads or that we are just sensitive...it's such a crock. Yes, it's in my head.....I wake my husband up with my leg kicking and tossing and turning during the night and I wake up sweaty and get chills that I even have dreams about and talk in my sleep about ....but it's all in my head. So is the sneezing twenty times. It's in my head.

The less Sub I take, the better I feel mentally. I feel like a completely different person. (That's in my head to.) The physical part is holding me back and keeping me prisoner. I'm trying to believe every night that the next day will be when it changes, but I keep on getting let down when I wake up with that jolt of chills and anxiety. It breaks a person down over time, especially after 24 days at the same dose with the same stuff happening everyday. Sorry, but it does guys. I still think maybe tomorrow it will all be better, but I'm angry right now. I'm really hoping once the Clonidine gets here, it will all get easier. I'm happy on one hand because I'm coming to life again. I've learned to play the piano in only a few months. I can play the Bohemian Rhapsody all the way through!! I love life again and I want to do a million things, but this is like trying to love life while you have the flu.

I'm also very angry at the medical establishment, specifically my first Sub doc. I would like to give him Sub for a few years in huge doses and then have him follow the taper plan he suggested and see how he does stopping at 2 mg. Man oh man, I'd just love to do that!!! Honestly, I can think of no better way to get back at him than to have him take this miracle drug himself. However, I don't want to be a vengeful person, so I need to work on letting this anger go and redirect it. I'd be lying, though, if I told you it doesn't give me a bit of a sick pleasure to envision that arrogant man trying to dish out his orders and BS advice and write his scripts while sweating and sneezing and taking his jacket on and off and on and off. That doc took my good money and left me with a huge problem.

Last night, I had the worse dream. I was running with my big red purse with my Sub inside and my kids and a bunch of other people were chasing me and laughing at me, trying to get my purse away from me, and I was really sick and needed to take my Sub and they were trying to take that purse from me. I was trying to hide and open the packet and cut the film and use my tweezers to get it under my tongue but they would find me and laugh and I didn't have time, so I'd start running again and I was so scared they'd get my purse and my Sub. It was an awful dream, even though it sounds funny.

Yes, the way I feel has changed, because I'm not heartless and I understand the insanity of addiction, but this is insanity too. Some people need this stuff forever. What if someone has been shooting heroin for 20 years and has Hep C? They need to stay on Sub. As far as everyone else, I think for most people, the best thing is probably a short term Sub treatment or no Sub at all. People can get off opiates in rehab, just like I got off alcohol in rehab. If I were an opiate addict in an active opiate addiction right now, that's what I would do. I would not put myself through this Suboxone thing, and I'm not going to be on here recommending other people go do something I would never, ever do to myself, having now seen how hard it is to ever get un-dependent on Sub and knowing how it demoralizes people over time. I take back what I said before. I didn't know. I thought I was tough because I could drop 16 mg in a month with no trouble. I didn't believe the people who were telling me it was so damn hard to go down these tiny doses. I was wrong and I'm sorry I doubted them. It didn't make sense to me back then. I don't expect it to make sense to many other people right now.

I think there needs to be a huge shift back onto recovery that doesn't involve using another drug that you will be dependent on or addicted to or whatever you want to call it. And let me tell you, when I was taking lots of Sub and had a reliable and pretty convenient source and my insurance covered it, well, that felt like dependency. Checking the time to see how much longer until I get to dose...locking myself in my bathroom so I can get out my Sub tweezers/scissors and carefully perform my routine of slicing and preparing my doses....counting my films so make sure I'm still okay....dreaming about Sub..wanting to take more Sub so I can feel better....thinking and thinking about Sub every time I stop distracting myself and the symptoms become very obvious....this feels so much like addiction to me and I hate it.

Hey, Dr. Junig is in recovery from opiate addiction and has been sober for quite a long time without the use of Suboxone. To me, he's kinda a shining example of how someone can turn his/her life around without the use of a replacement med. So, see guys, it is possible. I know it's harder to be off Sub and stay off opiates, but that does not mean it's impossible. I'm not the sort of person who wants other people to feel miserable right along with me. I'm truly saying this because I want people to have something better than what I have right now. I'm sure I'm learning tons from this. Maybe in the end it will be all worth it.

I still don't understand how it's possible to taper when a med is stacking up so rapidly in our systems. It makes no mathematical sense whatsoever. Basically, if you wait long enough, you can just stack a med up enough to please the receptors. It will just take longer. If I am wrong, I really want to know how, so someone please, please, please tell me!!!! CAN someone explain it or do none of us know? The fact that I've asked so many people (including doctors) this question and have gotten no clear answer is frustrating and tends to make me feel like no one understands the mechanism behind it and I'm being given a med by a doctor who cannot tell me what it is doing to me.

At this point, I'm pretty sure I will continue to 'taper' until I cannot get anywhere anymore (which is maybe where I'm already at) and then I'm switching to Oxycontin. That's ironic, because I started Sub to avoid Oxy, but I don't care at this point. Then, I'll go get an Ibogaine treatment, hopefully in the States. If not, Mexico. Everyone needs to have a light at the end of their tunnel, and right now, my light in inside a root in Africa.

laddertipper

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First you take a drink, then the drink takes a drink, then the drink takes you. ~F. Scott Fitzgerald


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 10, 2011 5:48 am 
First i would like to say thanks for completley hijacking my thread lol. ANd i kinda sent you a PM cause i wanted you to adress my post not go off on a tangent about yourself.

Once again not trying to be a jerk im calling it how i see it. But you had a real reason to post, i think you felt i understand where your coming from cause i was in the same shoes you were. And ya its funny how we change when its time to get off sub, i would have never advocated it the way i did once i got to this point. But to your points i would like to adress

"
I still don't understand how it's possible to taper when a med is stacking up so rapidly in our systems. It makes no mathematical sense whatsoever. Basically, if you wait long enough, you can just stack a med up enough to please the receptors. It will just take longer. If I am wrong, I really want to know how, so someone please, please, please tell me!!!! CAN someone explain it or do none of us know? The fact that I've asked so many people (including doctors) this question and have gotten no clear answer is frustrating and tends to make me feel like no one understands the mechanism behind it and I'm being given a med by a doctor who cannot tell me what it is doing to me.

At this point, I'm pretty sure I will continue to 'taper' until I cannot get anywhere anymore (which is maybe where I'm already at) and then I'm switching to Oxycontin. That's ironic, because I started Sub to avoid Oxy, but I don't care at this point. Then, I'll go get an Ibogaine treatment, hopefully in the States. If not, Mexico. Everyone needs to have a light at the end of their tunnel, and right now, my light in inside a root in Africa."


Im not gonna lie you saying your gettin on oxycontin scares the shit out of me. Please have someone dole them out to you, i know you were never an opiate addict, but once your on sub my opinion is it makes it very easy for you to abuse the meds. You will immediately stop being sick and feeling euphoric and happy and that will be almost impossible to not enjoy, and you will forget so quickly about being sick on the sub for this long as you will become used to being on the OC extremely fast, please please be careful. BUT im not gonna tell you no. IMO switching to an opiate for 60 days then using the sub as a short term detox again, or the IBOGAINE treament is actually easier then getting off sub with its long half life, BUT I JUST CANT BRING MYSELF TO ADVOCATE IT cause even i wouldnt listen, everyone told me its almost impossible, nope didnt listen and thats where i fucked up, please believe me, it is almost impossible not to get hooked on the OC and actually run from being sober as you will immediately forget the way you feel now. 99 percent of people can not do this, but if you want to get clean bad enough im not saying you can't. ( i actually would be sick for like 5 days, take some pecs, rinse wash repeat etc, for two months, then used the sub as a short term detox after like 70 days of being off the sub, i had only enough sub for a short term detox, and it worked. BUT I HONESTLY THINK it was cause i was at the point i was going to completely kill myself if i couldnt be sober, i was completley at my wits ends and i couldnt have even gotten addicted and started taking opiates full time again if i tried. I grew to completely hate the feeling of any opiate and being on it SOOOO much i really had no other choice in my mind, but rarely to people have this type of strong conviction, but who knows maybe your at the point i was at.

I really care about you ladertipper as I think your story relates to mine more than anyone else on the websites as we werent opiate addicts to begin with but more a victim of sub doctors ya know? I really feel a strong connection to your story as EVERYTHING you described i have been through PLUS some. I know that feeling of it never ending, i would get sooo depressed, and your talking to a very tough dude that was raised by a green beret never had a childhood, spent my summers as a kid in buffaloo training with an NHL goalie coach for play the teams from the czech republic and canada in triple a hockey from like fucking 8 -16 yrs old, i even wore suit and tie to every game. I also got into mma and grappled, all with these seperated ribs i talk about, always working through the pain. But back to the subject. Can you do me a favor, get in contact with me, send me PMs, or if i send you a couple more messages and feel comfortable i would love to give you my cell, as im stuck at home with an injury and it will still be quit a while before i can function, so i literally spend all day giving and receiving support from my giflriend and my friend with cancer, and my friend in prisons widow mother. Its like the help hot line lmfao and a way for my girlfriend to call me, NOBODY else outside of that except my parents even contact my phone as i cut off everyone from my party life. Please stay strong in your conviction to get sober, cause those feelings you have about "being yourself" will go away on the OC and its easy to want to run from all this and just stay on the meds, but you need to dig deep and know that feeling will come back and remember that even if you feel you dont want it now, as soon as you get a glimpse of "being yourself" thats what you truly want deep down.

Thats crazy what you said about 3 months ago, im not gonna like your post really bothered me i felt alone, like i was the only one that truly felt like myself before and coming off the sub, and everyone else was just content being on it. And like i should be shunned for trying to stop. But now i understand as i feel you do to. When i read your post i was just waiting for you to get to the low doses cause dropping from the high ones is a fucking piece of cake.

But please come back and respond to my above post i really need support about those things that happened in that post.

But to your question, its fucking insane how many similarities we had, i always looked for that answer and i think you came to the right person! as i too dug deep for that answer and finally found out whats up. you talk about it stacking up and that is the key. I found out my taper dose was not my "real dose" Look at the half life, so what you take every 36.5 hours is your "real" dose. I went from that. I know it sucks but you need to bite the bullet if you wanna taper more and get it to the point you are stretching out your dose every 36.5 hours or every other day, this way key to me ( the real key was switching to opiates for 70 days then short term detoxing again but i can never advocate this as i know it sounds cocky but i feel if you took 100 people on sub and tried this i would have been the only one to come out succesfull as deep down i truly hated every day on a normal opiate cause i truly cherish my athletics SOOOO much). So when you get to the point you are taking a dose every other day, then i feel you can taper easier cause you know what you real dose is and your not stacking it to a point you cant measure, most people have better success with the other day thing. I kinda think this is what you were asking if not please elaborate. But even if you had to take a bigger dose so you take it every other day instead of 2x a day dosing i feel like you will actually be further in your taper. I know its hard but thats because your actually taking a higher dose than you think because of the half life. Look how long the detox on sub is how are you gonna taper is it takes so long for the dose just to deteriate and your constantly stacking it ya know, im not saying that doesnt mean your not improving though. Ugh so much to talk about on that subject i kinda dont know where to start and my brain is just getting scrambled ya know.

But thanks for posting your story i really wish i had more time to adress some of the things, as i could go on for days but just keep in contact with me as i feel me and you can relate more than other people on the site, and i feel like our bodies react very similarly to the sub detox, we are both pretty sensitive with tapering.

laddertipper


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Apr 10, 2011 5:49 am 
O ya i also regulary have very very vivid dreams that are miserable to the point, i wake up in shock and start crying because the dream was so horrible that i am so thankful real life is well, real lol. This is normal also when you get clean you will have drug dreams from your receptors craving the drugs, you will wake up thinking you relapsed to be happy you didnt haha


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Apr 10, 2011 5:51 am 
Also i wanted to adress the craving thing, yes there are a period of cravings but to me its more thinking a bout the drug, for me its always been the physical withdrawal, ive never CRAVED opiates or wanted to get high or felt nostalgic for that feeling, in that system i think i am different. Everytime i have gotten over physical withdrawal its never been a problem, in fact i pretty much completely forget i took opiates and that i went through detox once its over, i have so many interest and love my healthy sober life so much and am a genuinely happy person deep down i can honestly say NO i dont have cravings, i know people will call me a liar but its true. I dont think i will EVER relapse because of this, call me cocky but its whatever


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Apr 10, 2011 6:02 am 
Yes yes i agree about the shift in how we treat addiction. SUBOXONE IS NOT A MIRACLE drug imo, treating addiction with another extremely addictive med is not the answer . I know i get flamed a lot but i just think its bullshit, they say you are gathering your thoughts and building strength and new coping techniques and all this bull shit etc, but it all goes out the window when you go through sub detox. You cant just change completely on a medication that is feeding your opiate receptors more than the full antagonist were, how does that even work? Wait cause im not high im all the sudden better? And i am re learning what screwed me up in the first place? Get outta here with that BS let me see you go through a sub detox doc, o wait your sick, learn some fucking coping techniques LOLLLL

Its so wrong, but dont feel bad about the 24 day thing, cause where i told you i switched over to opiates well i have a bad reaction with Oxycontin, it makes me feel like my body is on fire before and after i would fall asleep and i wouldnt sleep more than two hours at a time, so over the 70 day period not once did i full come of the sickness, well actually once i got a morphine instead and slept completely sound without any of the problems i experienced on oxycontin. But check this out i counted 140 plus hours awake 4 times without even a good nap, till i would fall asleep for more than an hour or so. THAT is misery being healthy and in shape bit me in the ass there, cause the more in shape you are the less sleep you need to function. And i also counted something like 58 days of shitting water and puking, i was extremely sensitive to the detox so dont feel so bad about the 24 day thing, and im talking cold turkey off the sub. There is always someone out there that is going through the same pain you are plus some. Keeping in contact with my buddy that has cancer has really helped me he has been great support.

But once again not trying to be rude if you wanna talk to me about your story and everything shoot me a personal, or ask me to come to your thread, please dont hijack it, we are all going through pain from the sub, some more than others i understand this, and when we are in these positions we tend to relate everything to US and try to tell our story, there is better ways of approaching it IMO then hijacking a thread, but dont take it to heart obviously it got me talking and thinking lol I just pmed you cause i wanted you to adress MY story right there not the other way around. Also its weird for me switching the sympathetic role as you were one of the sole people criticizing me about my opinions on SUB almost making me feel lonely since i was having such a problem with the low doses i remember something along the lines of you saying you dont understand where people are coming from becase " you went from 6 to 4 " or something along those lines and it was easy. LOL i figured id just wait and sure enough you had a change of heart.


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 10, 2011 12:03 pm 
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Quote:
I still don't understand how it's possible to taper when a med is stacking up so rapidly in our systems. It makes no mathematical sense whatsoever. Basically, if you wait long enough, you can just stack a med up enough to please the receptors. It will just take longer. If I am wrong, I really want to know how, so someone please, please, please tell me!!!! CAN someone explain it or do none of us know? The fact that I've asked so many people (including doctors) this question and have gotten no clear answer is frustrating and tends to make me feel like no one understands the mechanism behind it and I'm being given a med by a doctor who cannot tell me what it is doing to me.


laddertipper - The stacking effect eventually levels off so your blood level will remain at a relatively stable dose. Considering that sublingually, bupe has a 30%-40% bioavailability, within a few days the stacking effect should cause the actual level of bupe in your body to be equivalent to the daily dose you're taking. So if you take 1mg a day, you're actually getting about .3 to .4 mgs a day, and within a few days your blood level would stabilize around 1mg. Does that make sense?

I'm so sorry that things are hard for you right now. I can't imagine having to go through what you're going through if I'd never been addicted to opiates. It must be incomprehensible. I was addicted and tried to quit many times on my own. Having already suffered through that, I felt like what I went through with my Sub taper was relatively easier. Not "easy" per se, but doable...where quitting CT in the past was not. And I felt like every minute of suffering was a worthy price to have paid for getting those 2 years of stability to get my life back in order. I honestly doubt I could have done it otherwise. Inpatient rehab wasn't an option for me (I'm the sole source of financial support for my family) and the crushing depression I got during PAWS left me non-functional. So I think that the life experience and circumstance and the experience of addiction that we bring with us when we go into Sub treatment very likely colors our experience.

I really hope the clonidine will help you feel better. I found it was useful - it really clams down the sympathetic nervous system. Plus, finally getting a solid chunk of sleep made me feel wonderful.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 10, 2011 1:01 pm 
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Diary of a Quitter wrote:
Quote:
I still don't understand how it's possible to taper when a med is stacking up so rapidly in our systems. It makes no mathematical sense whatsoever. Basically, if you wait long enough, you can just stack a med up enough to please the receptors. It will just take longer. If I am wrong, I really want to know how, so someone please, please, please tell me!!!! CAN someone explain it or do none of us know? The fact that I've asked so many people (including doctors) this question and have gotten no clear answer is frustrating and tends to make me feel like no one understands the mechanism behind it and I'm being given a med by a doctor who cannot tell me what it is doing to me.


laddertipper - The stacking effect eventually levels off so your blood level will remain at a relatively stable dose. Considering that sublingually, bupe has a 30%-40% bioavailability, within a few days the stacking effect should cause the actual level of bupe in your body to be equivalent to the daily dose you're taking. So if you take 1mg a day, you're actually getting about .3 to .4 mgs a day, and within a few days your blood level would stabilize around 1mg. Does that make sense?

I'm so sorry that things are hard for you right now. I can't imagine having to go through what you're going through if I'd never been addicted to opiates. It must be incomprehensible. I was addicted and tried to quit many times on my own. Having already suffered through that, I felt like what I went through with my Sub taper was relatively easier. Not "easy" per se, but doable...where quitting CT in the past was not. And I felt like every minute of suffering was a worthy price to have paid for getting those 2 years of stability to get my life back in order. I honestly doubt I could have done it otherwise. Inpatient rehab wasn't an option for me (I'm the sole source of financial support for my family) and the crushing depression I got during PAWS left me non-functional. So I think that the life experience and circumstance and the experience of addiction that we bring with us when we go into Sub treatment very likely colors our experience.

I really hope the clonidine will help you feel better. I found it was useful - it really clams down the sympathetic nervous system. Plus, finally getting a solid chunk of sleep made me feel wonderful.


OMG! THANK YOU SO MUCH!!!!! You just made my day. You have no idea.....I'm sooooo relieved!! Man, I've been stressing over this. You just answered something my doctors haven't been able to answer. You absolutely rock and I appreciate it very, very much.

laddertipper

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 10, 2011 2:12 pm 
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good call on bioavailibility Diary. Heres some more info I found to re-inforce your point.


Buprenorphine bioavailabilities:

intravenous: 98%-100%

intranasal: 50%
"Studies of buprenorphine bioavailability have also examined the [...] intranasal (bioavailability, 48
"The bioavailability of buprenorphine, HCl (BPP) in sheep after nasal administration of two formulations has been studied. 0.9 mg BPP in 150 microl was administered nasally and compared to 0.6 mg i.v. The test solutions were formulated with 30% polyethylene glycol 300 (PEG 300) and 5% dextrose, respectively. The bioavailability for PEG 300 was 70% (S.D.+/-27%, n=6), whereas the bioavailability for 5% dextrose was 89% (S.D.+/-23%, n=6)."
"Mean intranasal bioavailability was 48.2 +/- 8.35% (mean +/- s.e.m.) of the intravenous value"

intramuscular: 68%
"The observed mean intramuscular bioavailability was 68%"
"Studies of buprenorphine bioavailability have also examined the intramuscular (bioavailability, 50%–100"

intrarectal: 54%
"bioavailability of the drug was found to be: [... ]intrarectal (54..."
"Relative to the 100% bioavailability from the intraarterial route the mean bioavailabilities were [...] intrarectal, 54%..."

sublingual: ~30%
"Buprenorphine is well absorbed sublingually, with 60% to 70% of the bioavailability of intravenous doses"
"Study results indicate that bioavailability of sublingual buprenorphine is approximately 30%"
"Literature on bioavailability of sublingual buprenorphine presents variable numbers ranging from. 19–58% of the administered dose."
"Relative to the 100% bioavailability from the intraarterial route the mean bioavailabilities were [...] sublingual, 13%"

oral: 10%
"the oral bioavailability for buprenorphine is state to be 10%"
"due to extensive first-pass metabolism, buprenorphine has very poor oral bioavailability (10% of the intravenous route) if swallowed"

intrahepatoportal: 49%

intraduodenal: 9.7%


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 10, 2011 2:56 pm 
Thanks guys, comin to ladertippers rescue!!!!!!! lol


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 10, 2011 11:36 pm 
Laddertipper you might as well just take over this thread since you made it yours lol


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 Post subject: Okay, okay
PostPosted: Mon Apr 11, 2011 2:53 am 
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This is NOT my thread. You're right about me talking too much about my own shit. I'm a selfish person, bottom line. That's true and I need to stop it. I'm really sorry, cause it does suck when people do take over your thread and you feel ignored. You are looking for help.

I'm also VERY sorry that I doubted your struggles earlier, when I hadn't gone through this myself, Dude, I was so wrong that I really could not have been any wronger. I don't really know if people can appreciate how tough this can be unless they have gone through it. Do you? I'd hope they can for their own sakes, but people don't always work that way. Also, when you were struggling so much, do you think I (or anyone else) would want to think it would happen to us? No way! It's called denial. I was in denial and I'm sorry that came off as not supporting you and not giving your struggle credibility. Well, that's what it was. I wasn't supporting you. In the end, you were right and you can honestly say that you told me so. Now, look, you have the last 'laugh'....I know you're not laughing, just a figure of speech....because here I am talking the same way as you were and you TOLD ME SO!!! The bottom line is that obviously, what I said affected your spirits, when you came here looking for help, and man, what a shithead I am! I am really, really sorry. I mean that. When someone lets me know something I did stuck with them in a negative way, I just want them to know that I care and I appreciate them calling me on it and that's not what I want to be about and not the kind of person I want to be to people. That's not why i'm here. I will make it right. I promise, okay? I don't think much of people who run around being callous and nasty, so I absolutely don't want to be that myself!! When I think about it, it's amazing...you knew I would see what you meant when I hit the lower doses....OMG, I just was so damn dense.

The story of what you went through is so horrible that I don't even know how to adequately respond. I don't think it can be called anything other than abuse. And you were young too, coming out of a traumatic childhood and then right into this. You are likely quite traumatized by all of it and always will be. You have a right to be very pissed. The worst thing is when you rely on a doctor's knowledge and experience and they carefully guide you right into a crevasse. Then, you cannot get out and the doctor is either nowhere to be found or he's telling you it's all in your head or you are sensitive, right? That is the most demoralizing and heartless thing a doctor can do. I'm so sick of it!! My theory on this is that many doctors got their patients on Sub, based upon what the drug company(ies) told them the experience would be. I think there was still a lot of negligence on the part of doctors, because what the pharm company said should happen during a taper didn't even make sense to begin with. Let me see, they knew that even a low amount of Sub equaled a lot of full agonist opiates, but they still somehow bought that a person could stop Sub at 2 mg and have little to no w/d. I think there was a big financial incentive to buying that. Now, those docs have a lot of patients who cannot get off Sub and these docs don't have a clue what to do. They do not know. I know this, because doctors I've spoken to have told me this same thing. They cannot get their patients off Sub. A good doc would stand by and realize they got the person in and they need to get them out. A bad doc/ bad person will blame it on the person and try to shove them out the door and call it a success story. Our docs cannot show us long-term studies about long-term Sub use (both Bupe and Naloxon) in these massive doses ( and by long-term, I don't mean 3 months!). There are no long-term studies. It's 'been around a long time.' Okay....what does that mean? So, no doctor has the damn right to say to a patient that it's in their heads or must be something else.

I think the false pretense of help is a huge point and is very important. Docs want to help people so badly and don't want them to stop their Sub cause they will relapse and die and no one wants that...especially not these wonderful doctors. UNTIL the insurance runs out. There are good doctors. I've fortunately found a few spread around this country and thank God for them.

I think you are very disillusioned by the whole medical field and you have a right to be and you probably won't ever see a doctor the same way again. The thing is that you have gotten through it. You are a smart guy and you did all this at a young age. You are an example to me and I have a ton of respect for you and all that you went through and survived. Your experience is something people need to hear and you need to tell, because you absolutely have to hear from other people that what you went through and how you were treated was NOT OKAY!

Thanks for coming back on here and giving us another chance.

laddertipper

_________________
First you take a drink, then the drink takes a drink, then the drink takes you. ~F. Scott Fitzgerald


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 Post subject: Re: Okay, okay
PostPosted: Mon Apr 11, 2011 3:16 am 
Dude its all good man, to be honest i would much rather you have been rude to me that ANYONE else. I have VERY thick skin, i had a very abusive childhood, and have scars all over my face from the dozens of street fights and family fights ive been in. Shit my own dad jokes about my left eyebrow cause it is pushed down over my eye way lower than my right one and puffed out from scar tissue and has a nasty scar from 15 stitches across it. I also have a massive scar that wraps around the back of my head from that same incident, i have over 80 staples in my head and tons of stitches, and almost died i lost so much blood. I grew up in a very rough situation, thats why i just laugh at these docs makin detox out to be easy, i know for a fact they would crumble one year in my shoe let alone the situation THEY put me through. If there was some way we could have a suffering contest, i could out suffer them all, over, and over, and over again. This is why i know i can make it pro in ONE of the sports i love, cause thats what its all about with endurance sports. If you get through the sub detox you already have like a freaking HUGE advantage when it comes to endurance sports if you learn how to carry over that pain. Because the pain actually feels good from the endurance sports, and you know at the end of the day you will be chillin on your coch, and you get a high that covers up the pain running, please remember this. It takes work but you CAN apply it to endurance sports im telling you.

And ya as addicts people tend to make the stories about them, but its perfectly fine because your a good poster. Just promise me you will stay in contact even if you get on the OC. I really, really care, i usually pick one person and do everything i can to help and always am in contact if they need me. LOL THIS TIME I CHOSE YOU! I think my support and visa versa will help though, im used to people that just throw it away.

And no im actually really attracted to the medical field, i kinda have a love affairs with doctors that arent sub docs. That one saved my life when i was bleeding out from my dad beating me with a weight ( free weight for weight lifting) and he was so awesome. I told dude i didnt need novacaine and he didnt believe me lol. Ive also had over 15 broken bones and im only 19! LOL hockey and fighting is rough man, So ive always loved doctors, Its like a repair shop, go in broke, come out fixed. LOL i have to go in two weeks for an MRI to probably get some surgery on my back from where those 4 ribs are still pulled out of my spine. I did 6 months of physical rehab while taperig on the sub and it didnt help one bit, and i am in pretty extreme pain a lot of the time, but because of the profession i want to chose i learn to fight through it. Also about a year ago my buddy took me to my first concert, ( so many things i havent done you would freak out at cause of my lack of childhood, but then so many things you would freak i HAVE done) i got punched in the back of the head and my face went into an amp and i bit my tongue in half, and it was hanging out and i had a couple drinks so the blood wasnt clotting. I was kinda out of it from being up all night so i was gonna sleep it off and my friends dad told me if you dont go to the hospital it will get infected and you wont ever have a tongue again. So i looked in the mirror and my entire tongue was hanging on by a little piece of muscle. So i had to go to the hospital and get it cut, reshaped, and sewn together from the inside out. My mom was flipping cause my dad always goes for my injuries she had no idea how tough i was ( she doesnt watch me compete) LOL what a horrible night. Hey now i have it pierced tho and i love spicy ass thai food. I was like shit i sliced it in half might as well get it pierced ya know. Also because im poor my mom always opts out for the novacaine, so ive gotten all my cavities drilled without any anasthetic or novacaine. And i even had my big toe nail pulled off, and cut open, and cleaned out an infected with out novacaine surprisingly that was worse than almost all of my broke bones cept a handful, because they were digging with this huge metal tool under my toe nail, slicing directly into an infection that it fucking hurt to even touch with a piece of floss. I was screaming in pain so loud i lost my voice. So once again im so glad you targeted me because i can handle it, im glad it wasnt some weak minded kid that went off and blew his brains out ya know lol

Ya and repsond to my PMs! I am looking for that specific thread and having no luck.

Please keep in contact with me, and how old are you btw? You dont have to disclose it if you dont want to just curious. I really want to see you get clean and move on. Dude being sober is great, im broken the fuck up and in extreme pain, and its way better than feeling numb on suboxone. This is what my grandpa said about pain pills and suboxone while he is dieing of cancer in his bones, prostate, bowels and many other places. He was a texas ranger btw and in the navy in ww2, been struck by lightening twice, and crashed a plane into a cornfield and got burnt all over his body " Boyah aint no day so fucking bad it aint worth remembering". Shit really stuck with me, i cant disgrace the line of men i come from on my dads side, extremely tough humans. The guy i was named after ONNIE grew up in the great depression, was a professional boxer, professional baseball player, and carried 400 lbs of hay on his back with big hooks his entire life to make money, he also smoked 4 packs of cigs a day back when they didnt know it was bad for you. He had a stroke and the doc said it was the cigs, he quit cold turkey that second, never looked back and died like 15 years later without ever smoking. This is the dude i got all my genetics from, i have an old picture of him and my ex girl thought it was me! like one of those old time pictures you get taken at theme parks, i had to call my dad to prove to her it wasnt me, i am like a carbon copy of dude head case and all if you cant tell. Im a little crazy and fanatical, but its the only way to be if i wanna make it in my dream goal

Do you smoke cigs just curious>


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 11, 2011 7:00 am 
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Onnie...after reading your post, I have a ton of compassion for you.

I was made to feel like an addict by my first two doctors also...even though I was 50 years old, never had a problem with anything in my life, didn't even drink! I had back surgery...and was kept on Lortab for 10 months and became addicted to it through being prescribed (never took more than my prescription said). It is called "psuedo addiction" and it is very, very common. I was a prime candidate to get on Sub and get off as quickly as possible. But I had bad doctors who saw my chronic pain as potential to have a "many years of $100 visits" type of patient. They did not educate or inform me in anyway about Sub or what had happened to my brain. I was never advised about anything except to keep going up on my dose to prevent pain.

It took two tries...finally with my third doctor, I found a true "addiction specialist", a psychiatrist that actually treats the disease of addiction. Yes, you can become "addicted" to painkillers within 3 weeks...just taking them as prescribed!
I, like you, shudder at the amount of bad Sub doctors out there. I feel very, very fortunate to finally have a good one.

I am glad to have been placed on Sub...I was in a lot of chronic pain as well as addicted to the hydro...Sub allowed me to deal with both issues. There are folks on this board who are not ready to taper from Sub and I stand behind them. I have seen too many opiate deaths and lives ruined because of the hydrocodone addiction crisis in this country. I have seen Sub save lives and if a person requires it to stay craving free or pain free, then they should be free to have that choice.

I am sorry for the pain and anger you are feeling...no child should have to go through abuse...no addict, regardless of how they got there, should have to go through de-humanizing treatment. Inmates should be able to have their Suboxone while in jail...forcing people into tortuous withdrawals because they are incarcerated is very, very cruel.

onnie...I'm a lot older than you but there is one thing I miss about being young. And no, it's not my flat stomach :)
I miss the naivete' of youth...where I thought that all was good and fair...that the police and government were there to serve and protect...that all doctors worked by the Hippocratic Oath...that is you were a good person and treated people as you wanted to be treated, that life would return it in kind.
Of course, children from dysfunction never even get to have their moments of naivete'. They are thrust into the big, bad adult world of pain, mistrust and fear during a time that should be about feeling loved, protected and cherished.

I come from great dysfunction too. I can tell you that you never forget but you do choose not to carry it. You choose not to pass it on. And for me, I chose to forgive and pity those who could hurt a child. I also feel that I have a lot more compassion and patience for others as once you've been there, you have a whole new understanding of exactly what "good" is and is not.

I wish you the best...most of all, I hope that you find peace with everything. It's a beautiful world out there and I hate to see a young life clouded by all you've been through. If I'd been your Mom...I would've made sure you had as much novacaine as you needed :)
Hey...my father was a Green Beret too! (And Ranger, Airborne, AI, Infantry) onnie...some of those guys should not be married and have families. People laugh when they ask "What did your father do?" I say "Oh, he was a trained assassin"....they laugh and think I'm joking....my husband will look at them and say "She's dead serious".

Sheesh...no wonder I suffered with anxiety since I was a kid! He drove my mother bonkers and did a number on me and my brother. You know, most kid's dads will get mad at them...maybe a swat on the rear...a grounding...I heard "I know 8 ways to kill you and they would never find your body".
onnie...I know you know what I'm talking about!


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 11, 2011 12:36 pm 
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Onnie, I haven't finished this whole thread yet, I just got to the part where you replied to setmefree, and I can tell you for sure she's not writing like that just to spite you, she always writes "dense" posts which are well worth reading, and I can't beleive you didn't even take the time to read her well thought out and insightful post before you jumped in and started dissing her!
In response to "the enter key is three keys over from the L key" I will say look down in the lower right hand corner of your screen and you will see a magnifying glass with 100% which you can click on to make the text bigger and you can read it more easily.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 11, 2011 4:37 pm 
Lillyval wrote:
Onnie, I haven't finished this whole thread yet, I just got to the part where you replied to setmefree, and I can tell you for sure she's not writing like that just to spite you, she always writes "dense" posts which are well worth reading, and I can't beleive you didn't even take the time to read her well thought out and insightful post before you jumped in and started dissing her!
In response to "the enter key is three keys over from the L key" I will say look down in the lower right hand corner of your screen and you will see a magnifying glass with 100% which you can click on to make the text bigger and you can read it more easily.
]

Get the fuck out of my thread. You seriously came here just to post that?

LOL YOU CANT believe i didnt take the time to read it?!?! REALLY?!

Nice input. You really add a lot to the discussion. Fuckin fruitcake


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 11, 2011 5:15 pm 
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Onniegrapples wrote:
Lillyval wrote:
Onnie, I haven't finished this whole thread yet, I just got to the part where you replied to setmefree, and I can tell you for sure she's not writing like that just to spite you, she always writes "dense" posts which are well worth reading, and I can't beleive you didn't even take the time to read her well thought out and insightful post before you jumped in and started dissing her!
In response to "the enter key is three keys over from the L key" I will say look down in the lower right hand corner of your screen and you will see a magnifying glass with 100% which you can click on to make the text bigger and you can read it more easily.
]

Get the fuck out of my thread. You seriously came here just to post that?

LOL YOU CANT believe i didnt take the time to read it?!?! REALLY?!

Nice input. You really add a lot to the discussion. Fuckin fruitcake


Chill bro


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 11, 2011 6:01 pm 
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might as well put out in the open what Onnie PM'd me:

"Your a little pussy. Get out of my thread i dont have to read shit i dont want to. And i asked nicely for it to be spaced, she put a mass jumbled paragraph. AND your butt hurt i didnt read it? Yet you come waste time to add nothing to the thread. I would appreciate it if you would stay far, far away from any of my post. I have more important things to do then be politcally correct on here to please your stupid ass."

Onnie, this is some of what I was saying I was disappointed that you were too angry to read:

"Congratulations Onnie for getting off Sub! I think it's fantastic! Although others may disagree, I don't doubt for a second that you feel better, more alive, etc off the drug than while on it.....no doubt in my mind. I think sometimes it's just a matter of 'degrees' of well-being, if you will. The highest (in my opinion) is completely free from any and all mind or mood altering substances.....that has been my goal since starting Suboxone.". - from setmefree


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 12, 2011 2:34 am 
Lillyval wrote:
might as well put out in the open what Onnie PM'd me:

"Your a little pussy. Get out of my thread i dont have to read shit i dont want to. And i asked nicely for it to be spaced, she put a mass jumbled paragraph. AND your butt hurt i didnt read it? Yet you come waste time to add nothing to the thread. I would appreciate it if you would stay far, far away from any of my post. I have more important things to do then be politcally correct on here to please your stupid ass."

Onnie, this is some of what I was saying I was disappointed that you were too angry to read:

"Congratulations Onnie for getting off Sub! I think it's fantastic! Although others may disagree, I don't doubt for a second that you feel better, more alive, etc off the drug than while on it.....no doubt in my mind. I think sometimes it's just a matter of 'degrees' of well-being, if you will. The highest (in my opinion) is completely free from any and all mind or mood altering substances.....that has been my goal since starting Suboxone.". - from setmefree


LOL. Anything i say in PM i have no problem saying it out in the open. You came into my thread gave zero input and said some stupid shit aimed at me, now your upset you got a reaction? Keep your personal angst torwards me out of this thread.

Can a mod please delete this guys garbage? He just came in with intention to stir the pot, and is now butthurt he got a reaction.


And since when is me not wanting to squint to read a post after i asked them to space it, me not reading it cause im angry?

Please stop acting like i owe you something. You have some serious reading comprehension problems, and obviously have nothing better to do then poke at me with a stick. GTFO your not welcome in my thread


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 12, 2011 2:35 am 
Lillyval wrote:
Onnie, I haven't finished this whole thread yet, I just got to the part where you replied to setmefree, and I can tell you for sure she's not writing like that just to spite you, she always writes "dense" posts which are well worth reading, and I can't beleive you didn't even take the time to read her well thought out and insightful post before you jumped in and started dissing her!
In response to "the enter key is three keys over from the L key" I will say look down in the lower right hand corner of your screen and you will see a magnifying glass with 100% which you can click on to make the text bigger and you can read it more easily.


Also at the top left of the internet application there is a back key. If you dont like what i have to say to you, you can click it a couple times.


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