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PostPosted: Mon Jan 31, 2011 10:16 pm 
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Hey everyone,

A quick history.. Was on Methadone 120mgs for 5 years. Stopped taking the meth Nov 14th/2010, went to a detox Nov 20th so at that point I been off meth for 6 days. Detox center put me on 8mgs of Sub for 5 days along with some other vitamins and tylenol and Tramadol for sleep, was discharged 5 days later and perscribed 8mgs/day of Sub. This was 2.5 months ago.

Right outta the gate I dropped from 8 to 6 for a few weeks, then from 6 to 4 a week or so later, then down to 2 for a couple of weeks. Then 5 days ago I dropped it to 1mg and havent felt much of anything wd wise other than some back pain and a little trouble sleeping (4-5 hrs rather than 8+). Along with that I am pretty anxious in the morning lying in bed after I wake up, but that goes away as soon as I get up and going.

Being new to the sub game, Im wondering if Im jumping the gun in regard to being suprised, excited/confident and am in for some hell in the days to come.

I completely understand that everyone is different as that is evident in all the posts containing completely different expieriences. But like I said, im not all that familar with sub and its traits other than reading this forum extensivly. So, I was hoping someone or 'ones can maybe shed some light.

I also am getting the impression that getting down to 1mg is not all that bad, but going below that or off at that point is where the trouble comes in (I could have read that wrong somewhere, not sure).

Thanks in advance for any and all help!!


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 31, 2011 10:34 pm 
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Sorry, I couldnt find the "edit" feature, so Im just going to reply real quick to add a possibly signifigent element to my original post.

During the 6-4mg drop, I was feeling seriously depressed constantly all of a sudden, really bad too...huge bouts of utter hopelessness, dying sounded inviting, and motivation and mood were both in the gutter.

I had taken "Wellbutrin" in the past for minor depression and stopped for some reason about 6 months ago. I still had 20 or so 150mg pills left. So, I decided to start taking them again, and to my surprise and delight my depression litterally cleared up with in a week completely.

Wellbutrin is a fairly mild anti-depressent when compared to some of the SSRI's and actually works in a totally different way, but that all said, could that have anything to do with my current success dropping down fairly quickly and expieriencing very minimal wd's especially in the mood/emotion department? Has anyone else here had any expierience with Wellbutrin as it relates to Sub or opiate wd, or depression as a result of opiate titration for that matter? Thanks again!


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 31, 2011 11:22 pm 
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Hi, We have a lot of similarities...I was at 75mg methadone for 3 years and Nov. 20, 2010 stopped....for 6 days! using about three 5mg vicodin to help alleviate w/d...then started on Subutex. Have been on Subutex for about 2 months.

I have wanted to start to decrease my doese. I ended up on 16mg maintenance...then tried 12mg but was having some other issues and went back to 16. I then tried to abruptly decrease...from 16 to 8mg and a couple of days even tried 6mg...what a dumb ass. No need to do that to myself and especially with what is going on with me this is NOT the time to change up my dose. BUT, I had a massive headache today...worse than my migraines are and i think it was precipitated by the low doses of sub I had been taking the past few days. I then took another 8mg later today and still have pounding headache. All this goes to show is this is NOT the way, for me, to decrease.

That said, you sound like you did a quick but workable, for you, taper. My concern for you, despite my own dumb decisions of late, is that you were on methadone for a long time, made the swtich to Sub but are getting off of it so quickly. Why? I know for me that there were several good changes that occurred after getting of methadone and to stop Sub, which I understand your desire, so quickly seems counterproductive to recovery longevity. I don't know your history but if you have a chronic relapsing history especially this could be something to think about.

You asked about wellbutrin alleviating w/d. I, too, take wellbutrin. I have for several years and it works pretty well for me. I know that whenever I have stopped it after about 2 months need to go back on it. Then any signs of depression or hopelessness disappear usually. I think it def helped your mood and depression obviously so of course that will make any w/d a bit easier. I doubt it will do anything for sub w/d, however...you may just be someone who has a fairly easy time and I couldn't tell you what the next several days or weeks will be for you...I know drinking a lot of fluids and flushing your kidneys, exercising and remaining busy will be helpful. Not that I'd do all that mind you! Except the drinking of water..LOL...but hey I can throw out the advice.

Can I ask why you are wanting off sub so soon? My sub dr. told me to wait at least 4 months on sub before thinking about going off of it. He's pretty flexible but he likes to get people off of it rather than use it long term. Some days I want off of it becuase I am afraid of something happening where it is not available any more and I'm also afraid of always dreading the idea of w/d and when i should get off of it, or should I. I think if I could afford it and there wasn't so much controversy in the medical field about it and the future of it I'd be a lifer. That is because of my own chronic relapse issues and recovery is a much preferrable place to be.

Probably not much help. i was just amazed at the similarities...good luck with your future off of Sub. hope all goes well in the next few weeks.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 01, 2011 9:10 am 
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I too am doing a quick taper using Suboxone. IMHO Suboxone lends itself to this. There are many reasons Suboxone fits the niche of a rapid taper tool. Being a partial agonist it gives us the option to be able to taper. I could never taper with my Drug of Choice, it was hopeless.

Also it appears that the shorter length of time one is on Suboxone the more rapid/easier the taper. There's not any empircal evidence on this as yet, but there is strong indication this is correct.

Most of the people on this site are long term maintenance users of suboxone, and favor long term usage for all. I don't feel that way. If you're ready you must have a recovery plan, not simply a taper plan. Tapering off subs becomes the easy part. Long term sobriety requires a hell of a lot of work.

As to the taper itself, I suggest you reduce down to at least .25 mg a day, preferably even lower. Personally I am able to comfortably taper by reducing around 20% every four to five days. others go a bit more slowly. I would suggest using the liquid taper method as outlined within this website. You really need to be fairly exact in your dosages if you are serious about stopping.

But whatever happens stick around for a while, we're always glad to hear from folks in your shoes.

Good luck!!


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 Post subject: recovery plan,....
PostPosted: Tue Feb 01, 2011 10:13 am 
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Seeking sober....I agree totally with you. We need a recovery plan not just a taper plan. Short or long term sub use...its up to each of us to decide. And like Romeo mentioned in his post and I talk a lot in my own, I believe we need to reach out and ask for help. It doesn't matter how this happens, but that it happens. This is not a disease to handle alone as our best thinking got us here. My recovery path is just that, mine. I will talk about it here as my solution but it doesn't mean there aren't other ways to recovery. Getting off the drugs, while difficult, really is the easy part. Recovery....that is the challenge.

I have wondered since starting sub 2 months ago whether being on it shorter term would make a taper easier...that is why I think about going off in a couple months....if others have any info, research about this please share it.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 01, 2011 10:22 am 
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There isn't any empirical evidence that short term sub makes the taper easier. Think of it this way: If a person was on full agonist opiates for 10 years then sub for 2 months, it's like the sub just puts off the w/d from those opiates. But if a person has a much shorter history of opiate abuse, it may very well make the taper and w/d easier. That said, I have no evidence of that.

The only studies out there is that short term use of sub has a high rate of relapse. This doesn't mean everyone doing a short term taper won't succeed. It just means statistically speaking that very few people won't relapse when the high majority will much more likely have further relapses.

The best way to be successful and prevent relapse - regardless of the length of their treatment - is to have lots of back-up plans. And it's helpful to be prepared to go back on sub if one feels extremely close to relapsing on full agonists.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 01, 2011 5:13 pm 
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Hat,
I agree totally....1.) with the idea of having easier w/d on short term sub. it doesn't make sense but I still thought about it!
And, looking at the big picture of where we are before deciding to go off with the idea that going back on is not failure. And 2.) having a solid recovery plan in place. For example....for me to go off sub right now would be stupid and possibly deadly. I just had a short relapse on benzos for a few days last week, have messed around with my dose for no reason except probably some self medicating/doctoring and being in a brand spanking new situation in life. One of these is enough to NOT change my recovery plan, but having all three? Just stupid.

I do think (Think, not KNOW) Sub is going to get even more "monitored" soon by DEA and the medical community. I know in my previous city many dr have recently lost their licenses to prescribe Sub. They are cracking down, making sure drs are following all the treatment rules surrounding the prescribing of Sub. More lab tests, possibly even checking therapeutic levels to make sure there is no diversion and maybe fewer subutex Rx. Dr get brainwashed by pharm. companies and get scared, too. I asked my dr if he thought there would be a chance sub might not be available in the future and he said he wasn't sure. I thought he'd say NO! I'm not trying to be alarmist...these are things I think about when looking at my future.

I'll stop talking now. I don't want a political attack that I'm scaring people. I'm just thinking out loud.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 01, 2011 9:16 pm 
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First, thank you all for chiming in...it is definitely appreciated.

chinagirl - wow, crazy how similar our situations are! In regard to why I’m getting off the sub and why so quickly etc kinda goes like this... I was put on methadone for the wrong reason imo, I had broken my back, along with my femur and wrist in a motorcycle accident. At the time. I didnt know what methadone was or any of the repercussions that were to follow by taking the following as medical gospel/fact. Both the ER doctor and the surgeon at the hospital advised that I go to a methadone clinic and go on maintenance because I was going to have chronic pain for ATLEAST 5 years, possibly longer. Taking this advice was the worst decision of my life, I should have researched it and found an alternate method. Now staying on it AFTER I got the low down on the methadone was completely my fault, and the last 4 of my 5 yr stint on the stuff was out of sheer laziness and fear of getting off the stuff. So, the reason I’m trying to get off the Sub in a quick, but safe and semi comfortable method is because from the start, from 6 days prior to detox when I took my last dose of meth, my plan was simple....get off any and all drugs that I didn’t need....this just happen to include one and that was methadone.

I was going to do whatever it took to accomplish that. Detox and short term sub use were the most viable method for me and I haven’t deviated from this original plan one bit...not even on day 5 and 6 C/T from 120mg of meth and in pure agony did I put anything into my body that would possibly hinder my plan. So, my plan for suboxone was never to stay on in any longer than absolutely necessary to get off the methadone. For myself, and I only speak for myself here, I don’t believe there is even the slightest chance of "relapse" and I base this purely on the fact that I never sought out opiates to get high or abused anything in any fashion, had only been drunk twice in my life and I’m 31. That makes me NO better than the folks on here that are using the sub for recovery purposes, they have my complete respect and support. My personal circumstance just happens to be a tad different than some. But at the same time, I’m in the exact same boat as everyone here, at least in this particular section of the forum where we're all trying to get off the sub...all with different plans and different circumstances motivating them.

Thanks again for all the replies, more are welcome! And if anyone has any thought regarding it being more difficult once you get down below 1mg, please chime in. I’m sure the percentage of decrease at any mg level is going to come into play here, so I guess this is more of a general question regarding tapering below 1mg specifically at any increment.

Thanks again!


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 01, 2011 9:38 pm 
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Here's where I'm at in my taper. I've got a thread here somewhere.

Day 1 3mg
Day 2 2mg
Day 3 2mg
Day 4 2mg
Day 5 1.5mg
Day 6 1.5mg
Day 7 1.5mg
Day 8 1.125mg
Day 9 1.125mg
Day 10 1.125mg
Day 11 1.00mg
Day 12 1.00mg
Day 13 1.00mg
Day 14 .80 mg
Day 15 .80 mg
Day 16 .80 mg
Day 17 .80 mg
Day 18 .60 mg
Day 19 .60 mg
Day 20 .60 mg
Day 21 .50 mg
Day 22 .50 mg
Day 23 .50 mg
Day 24 .50 mg
Day 25 .40 mg
Day 26 .40 mg
Day 27 .40 mg
Day 28 .40 mg
Day 29 .30 mg
Day 30 .30 mg
Day 31 .25 mg
Day 32 .25 mg
Day 33 .25 mg.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 01, 2011 9:50 pm 
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1wickd6-thanks for sharing your story. Wow, what a difficult road you had. And you really do have a different story in that ok you might be physiologically addicted (and now possibly psychologically addicted just due to the time on methadone) but how you got there is not the same...and that might mean a "recovery plan" for you is not typically what others, like myself, need. I am not sure if that sentence made any sense....LOL

I used to work in a trauma ICU and I really understand how devastating your injuries are. I really hope you are successful in getting off these meds. What will you do after Sub as far as managing your pain? Sorry if I missed that but is your pain under control at this time? Or abated?

Keep us posted as to how these next few weeks go for you.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 01, 2011 10:16 pm 
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chinagirl - I dont really know the situation with my pain levels..I mean, I was on the methadone and all was well, but Im sure that covered up most, if not all of any lingering or existing pain. Im not too well versed in the pain mgmt effects of sub, so being on 1mg could be covering up everything as well, or doing nothing at all in that area...not sure. But for now, Im completely pain free, guess I'll find out soon enough if thats going to be the case or if im gonna get slammed with crazy back pain when I stop the sub.

I never really thought of what being on methadone for all those years may have done to me on a psycological level in terms of me possibly being a "addict" now. That could be entirely possible, and Im glad you brought that up, I would never have thought of it like that. I know for sure as Im sure you know all too well, when on the meth, the thought of not having your methadone is about the worst feeling ever and i cant imagine what I WOULDNT do to get ahold of some. So, in a sense, I was totally and completely addicted in that respect, not too sure how or if that plays into things considering I've been off of the meth for months....definitly something to think about though for sure. I guess the only way to really find the answers to these questions is to get completely off the sub and see what happens. Sucks that it has to be like that, but I dont really see any other option.

I have a great support system in place and have already planned for the worst (after getting off the sub, I go nuts and need back on it/im a full opiate addict for some reason and need to do some serious recovery wrk). Because I never took the full amount of the sub right off plus my fairly quick taper I have quite the stock pile of sub, right around 15 plus 1 refil of 10. I have also made arrangements with the detox/recovery center to be able to go there in cause something goes wrong. They will get things under control and already have lists of meetings and even in house rehab that can last up to 3 months. I have already been pre approved through my ins (aside from having to pay $350/mo. for a deductable). In addition to all of that, I have some left over benzos from a pre surgery deal along with some Clonodine...not sure why my surgeon gave this to me, but he wanted me to take it for a week leading up to the surgeory..dunno. So, I think I have everything covered, but if anyone has anything to add, please feel free, im open to any and all suggestions!

Thanks guys!


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 02, 2011 12:44 am 
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I gotta say that is pretty impressive...your thought process for all of this. and the fact you are open to the possibility of needing recovery work and having all those plans and support. I think you'll do great. Don't know much about Sub used for pain....many on the site have this experience and can address that for you. Good luck!


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 02, 2011 3:01 am 
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OT- To SeekinSober, just wanted to say that your quote from Khalil Gibran is a great one, and as a fellow Khalil (my first name), I'm always pleased when other people know who he is. An amazing writer. Just wanted to say that.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 02, 2011 8:54 am 
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I am not sure what will happen when you go off 1mg. Whether or not you are an addict does I think make a difference in my opinion. I have no facts to back it up, but I think that addicts often have anxiety disorders to begin with or their brains don't make the necessary chemicals to feel good on their own. They end up taking narcotics to self medicate these deficiencies. So when they are tapering or going off suboxone, they will naturally feel some kind of anxiety or may start feeling depression or other emotions they felt prior to using narcotics. If they haven't actively engaged in long term treatment, they won't know what to do with those emotions without a pill.

Non-addicts I think handle things a little differently because their brains DO make the appropriate chemicals and they aren't pre-disposed. Non-addicts I think feel physical anxiety from tapering and their brain either compensates or the person can recognize it for what it is and hang in there or they will find a way to get through it.

I also think the length of time you are on suboxone makes a difference in how well you do with tapering and going off of it. I think it makes a difference as to what dose you can jump from and your comfort level when you do.

I think these and several other factors are the reason we hear of one person jumping from 1mg and doing just fine after about a week and others who must taper using the liquid taper method.

So I would suggest exercise. A lot of it as this will help your natural endorphins get going.

I must admit I am totally jealous. I wish I were in your shoes right now. I wish you success and hope you will let us know about it. The more people I hear of doing this successfully, the more I think maybe I could do it despite chronic pain issues. Congratulations on your success to date.

Cherie

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 Post subject: kahlil gibran...
PostPosted: Wed Feb 02, 2011 9:55 am 
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Ditto on this guy....and Fezafou, I love that DH Lawrence quote. Sadly I feel sorry for myself all the time!


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 Post subject: oops, typo...
PostPosted: Wed Feb 02, 2011 10:02 am 
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Khalil...not kahlil!


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 02, 2011 9:49 pm 
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Thanks for all of the replies and input, much appreciated!

Jackcrack - Dont be jealous at all bud, tomorrow I could wake up and not be functional and have to go back up to 6mg or somethin' ya know...Im not outta the woods yet. Are you journaling your taper or do you have a thread that can bring me up to speed with where youre at? If so, please send the link my way, I'd like to check it out and see where youre at and how youre doin!

So anyway, my plan right now is to do the liquid taper after i get down below .5 for a week or so and see how I feel. Hopefully with any luck I'll be able to jump in a couple weeks tops...we'll see, things could get hectic from here on out.

Yesterday, and today especially, I have taken less than 1mg, but I have no idea howmuch less because Im breaking it up rather than measuring it out. I feel totally fine aside from some bothersome anxiety later on in the evening (I take one dose of sub around 7am). I get a second wave on the anxiety when I wake up which could be 3-4am or 6:30am, its been all over the place. But once Im up and going I barely notice it.

I'll continue to post when things change, if/when I drop or increase my dose, or start getting different or additional wd symptoms, stuff like that. Tomorrow Im going to do my best to break 1/8 of my 8mg pill in half to hopefully get around .5mg. We'll see how that goes, and if I cant get it close, Im going to get a syringe or liqued medicine dropper manana. Like I mentioned earlier, Im gonna need it sooner or later so minus well pick one up and get accurate .5mg measurments if the breaking method doesnt fly.

Thanks again guys, I'll report back and letcha know whats going on soon!


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 03, 2011 7:53 am 
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I'm going to offer some advice. I'll relay what worked for me.

Exact dosages: You must start measuring more accurately. A .1mg a day difference makes a BIG difference. What a lot of people do is to quarter an 8mg pill with a pill cutter, then tale that 2mg piece and crush it up on a plate, make four equal line that are now .50 mg a piece. These then are easy to manipulate. Also, when you're just eyeballing our doses there's a good chance that your actually going up some days and going down some days. That's not what you want to be doing and will result in problems you don't need. It may not seem that important to you, but being exact measuring your doses makes a BIG difference in success.

Dropping from 1 mg to .5mg in one jump: I don't recommend that, which is a 50% drop. Usually people find better success by reducing around 10-20%. I'd humbly suggest 5 days or so at .75mg, then drop down to .50mg a day.

These are only my suggestions, in the end you need to listen to your body and do what's right for you. Be proactive and diligent.

You're doing fine!!

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the most massive characters are seared with scars."
Khalil Gibran


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 Post subject: exactly!
PostPosted: Thu Feb 03, 2011 10:03 am 
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just want to reiterate what seekinsober said....that when we taper down to the smaller doses remember the drop is HUGE. 1mg to .5 mg is a 50% drop just like seekingsober said. HUGE. Compared to going from 16mg to 12mg....a much lesser percentage rate. It is important to be much more accurate and to keep blood levels steady.
That was a great point, seekinsober.

I have a guestion....I think there is a thread here on it, I'll check...is there anyone else on Subutex? and if so HOW do you take your dose? I wonder sometimes if I am not doing it correctly, if I need to be more diligent with my technique so to speak, or does it really matter? thanks


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 03, 2011 9:18 pm 
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I picked up a ml dropper, i guess its for measuring infant or baby liquid meds..Anyhow, Im going to just roll with that from here on out. I took .8mg this morning and will see how that goes for a few days. Thanks for the advice SeekingSober, although I would like to get off this asap, I dont want to risk things getting bad and having to go back up in mgs, so I'll be taking your advice. Even with going down 15-20% every week or so, I still should be done inside of a month. Which brings up a question... Do folks usually jump at .1mg or is it done at higher micrograms? Im sure the answer to this is that everyone does it different, listen to your body, etc. etc....So I guess Im sort of asking a general question in terms of what the "norm" is, if there is one..

Chinagirl - Im no Subutex or Suboxone expert by any means, but I was given Subutex in my detox and have talked to many both in there and online about it. To my knowledge, Subutex is Suboxone minus the Naltroxone, so, it would be taken the exact same way. I know that "medically" speaking and on the side of your script it will say to take both suboxone and subutex sublingually. Beyond that, I dont know if there are other differences that Subutex users have found, and made adjustments to accommodate. Not sure if that helps much, but maybe its a start if nothing else.


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