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PostPosted: Fri Oct 01, 2010 11:26 pm 
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I'll try and keep the background noise to a minimum. I am 23 years old and like many others was hooked on Vicodin/Percocet/Norco/WhateverTheHellICanFind for approx. two years. That evolved into snorting OC for another year then shooting them for bout 6 months before I got arrested.

So after two and a half years on Suboxone, my doctor skips town on me and leaves me in the cold. After finding a new doctor, and realizing that my old one was a bum, I realized that I cannot be on suboxone forever if I want to have any kind of productive life. The side effects of long-term suboxone use were clearer than ever and I was committed to dissolving my relationship with a crutch.

For two years solid I was on 16mg a day. I then dropped to 8mg a day for approx. 4 months. Then I dropped it to 4mg a day for 3 months. I, as of yesterday, am at 2mg a day and am kinda sh!tty but know it wont be much of a problem adapting to this change in dosage. However, my doctor is dead set on when I go to see him in exactly a month from today, he will cut me off.

Mentally, I feel prepared and am looking forward to making it happen. After a lifetime of failures, failure is not an option now. So, 2mg a day for the next month, then nothing. This isn't my ideal terms for kicking the subs but Im anxious and feel like its time and feel somewhat mentally prepared. I will have my typical Thursdays and Sundays off while working 45 hrs the other 5 days of the week. No chance really of taking any extra time off for this event.

I am looking for any insight on if this sounds like it has potential to be successful. I have no other option then to make it work but I want to set myself up the best that I can. The doctor will give me clonodine and ambien to ease this transition. I have access to xanax but am really hoping I won't need it because I want to stay away from benzos if possible.

I am really hoping that I will be semi-functional when I kick the subs. I have a new mortgage and such so failure, as well as time off work, is not an option. Relapse too, not an option. Anyways, any insight or support would be immensley appreciated as I prepare myself for the most important step of my life. Thanks guys.

-----Scottie


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 02, 2010 1:52 am 
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Wow, seems like you got quite a bit on your plate. I wish you the best in your taper/jump. I'm currently tapering myself, wishing I could go as fast as you are, but trying to be okay with going slow.

How was the jump from 8-4 and 4-2? I'm really curious. Especially being that you were on suboxone for 2 years.

From my own personal experience with suboxone, coming off 2mg wasn't fun, but it was completely doable. (Mind you, when I came of 2mg I had only been using subs for a month to get off of other "stuff".)

Being that you were on it a decent amount of time, I think the withdrawals would be a little worse and last a good amount longer. Having clonidine is definitely a good thing. From what I've read all over the internet (and I've read a lot), I think jumping off 2mg is gonna be hard, trying, and nasty, but nowhere near impossible. The thing that worries me is the fact that you can't get out of work. I don't know if you are going to have the energy or the mind for working (but I don't want to instill negative thoughts, you know yourself much better than I. You know how you were when withdrawal off other opiates in the past).

Suboxone has such "mixed reviews" when it comes to the withdrawal. Obviously the more your jumping from, the worse. The longer you've been on it the longer the withdrawals are likely to last. But overall, I think it's safe to say that withdrawing from suboxone, while unpleasant, doesn't compare to withdrawing off of full agonists. But the sub W/D will last longer b'c of half-life.

Any tiny bit you can get yourself down before the jump will help, so see if you can cut some of the 2mg in half and try taking 1mg a day for the last week or two. The lower you get the easier it'll be, thats for sure.

If there is no way for you to schedule time off, then maybe you should try and save a handful of subs for when you make your jump. If by day 5-7 your able to get into work and get through the day okay, then toss the subs. If not, take tiny doses and re-evaluate.

Whatever happens please stay in touch and keep us posted. I'll be rooting for you.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 02, 2010 7:30 am 
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Hey I appreciate the support bubble. Honestly, even with being at 16mg for over two years straight the jump from 8mg down to 4 was not bad at all. Some discomfort for two days maybe but honestly its not even much worth mentioning. The jump from 4mg down to 2mg is close to the same. This is only day three on 2mg and I have had some discomfort in the evening and been pretty lazy after work but really not bad at all.

In my opinion, I would think the jumping would be tougher if it was only in recent months that was the last time having used a full opiate. For myself its been well over two years since ive taken any kind of painkiller or full opiate. Anyways, I know it can be done for folks like me and you if you want it enough. And surely if you prepare yourself, which is kinda where my frustration lies.


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 02, 2010 9:39 am 
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I have to say, I don't understand why these doctors are "cutting people off" this way. I understand we should all be taken on a case by case basis, some people, clearly, are better candidates for long-term maintenance than others, and so, yeah, in the case of a young person who has only abused drugs for a relatively short period of time, it may be a good idea to have a goal of getting off maintenance. I get that. But I don't get just pushing a patient off the meds, telling them they're going to be "cut off" like that.

Sorry for the rant, but this stuff really bugs me.

Now as far as your situation goes, I would urge you to continue tapering. You DO NOT want to make the jump at 2mg. From what I've been reading around here since joining, you are likely to experience some significant discomfort jumping from that dose.....in fact, I'd try to get down to less than 1mg before making the jump.


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 02, 2010 12:20 pm 
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I completely agree with Junkie on this one. I don't think jumping from 2mg is going to be any better than jumping from 4mg or even 6mg to be honest. Not from what I have read. I am not concerned about your ability to get through the physical withdrawals because from my own experience, they aren't nearly as bad as full agonist withdrawal and with clonidine and ambien, and probably a little xanax for a few days, you ought to feel fine. I do think however that the PAWS is going to torture you jumping from 2mg. I completely disagree with your doctor cutting you off and making it sound easy at 2mg. I might ask him if other patients have been successful this way and if so, for how long? Did any of them get another doctor after this? Did any of them follow up where he might know the answer to these questions? Did he follow them at all? This just sounds ridiculous and I have a hard time believing that his recommendation has led to any kind of success.

I don't know if it really matters how long you were on opiates because once you are addicted I think we are all the same. I do think long term maintenance is a definite requirement for long term older users, but being 23 and a shorter term user doesn't make long term maintenance much less of a requirement. In fact from what Dr. Junig has said (if I am recalling correctly) it is generally recommended that those in their 20's remain on suboxone through their 20's because of the higher rates of relapse and death in that age range.

I wish you the best of luck and hope you will stick around through this process so people can help you out.

Cherie

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 02, 2010 8:02 pm 
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Thanks Cherie and (Non)Junkie, and it wasnt so much that he is cutting me off in a month but his plan is for me to be off by then. He has told me before that we can go at my pace and he wouldnt just leave me out in the cold. He talked me into jumping from 2mg at the end of this month but I am def now questioning that.

And also, I retract my previous statement about jumping from 4mg to 2mg in the last couple days. It really hit me today. It wasnt unmanageable but damn close it seemed. I juuuust took my other 1mg pill right now at 8pm which is a couple hrs early but I am pretty miserable.

Maybe I should talk to the doc again about jumping from 2mg. He seemed to think it would just be frivolous or just delaying the pain by tapering even more and not have benefits.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 04, 2010 11:37 pm 
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Soo day 3 and 4 at 2mg was pretty miserable. Its been a long time since ive felt that feeling and i do not miss it. Makes me seriously trip about the jump to zero next month.

On a positive note, day 4 or 5, whichever one today is, was lovely. I slept good last night and woke up feeling good despite the 6 shots i took last night. But I felt good all day today and tonight so I think I am good with the 2mg.

Starting to notice my appetite coming back, and just an overload of feelings and emotions which is good. It makes me feel like a real person again, its been a long time since I felt anything. However, that made my last sexual encounter(two nights ago) probably pretty dissapointing for the lady if you catch my drift. Redefines the word "quickie".

Wish me luck as I try to knock it down to 1mg in the next couple weeks b4 I take the leap of faith to the dreaded zero, nothing, nada, zilch.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 06, 2010 12:26 am 
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Ok, first for some context. When you've been on 16mgs of Suboxone, 2mgs doesn't sound like a whole lot.

However. Buprenorphine is a really strong drug. When it is used for pain control, the typical dose for an adult is 300 micrograms. That is 0.3mgs. Right now you are taking 2000 micrgrams a day, close to 7 times the normal dose for pain control.

So that is something to consider when your doctor tells you that it's not worth tapering lower than 2mgs. I tried to quit at 2mgs and it fucking sucked. I don't recommend it. It won't kill you and you might be able to function but it will feel like hell and it just seems foolish when you could taper down lower and save yourself a bunch of pain and trouble.

If you read thru my taper thread, you'll see posts from other people who tapered to very low doses where they express how suprised they were that even at doses well below 1mg they still "felt" the dose when they took it and got relief from their withdrawals. This was my experience too.

Something you said in your original post caught my eye:

Quote:
So after two and a half years on Suboxone, my doctor skips town on me and leaves me in the cold. After finding a new doctor, and realizing that my old one was a bum, I realized that I cannot be on suboxone forever if I want to have any kind of productive life. The side effects of long-term suboxone use were clearer than ever and I was committed to dissolving my relationship with a crutch.


What I have to say about that is, before you throw away your "crutch" make sure you've learned how to walk again. What I mean is - have you figured out how to deal with stress in a healthy way? If you have pain, do you have a plan to manage it? Have you learned how to feel your emotions and deal with them? Do you have a healthy support system for when shit goes wrong...because it will. Right after I finished my taper I was feeling so awesome and accomplished, I was flying. And then wham, my dad had a heart attack and died, and Every Single Thing that I had learned in my 2 years on Sub (and in therapy) was put to the test in the most intense way possible. If I hadn't had those skills, I would have been snorting roxies off my brother's kitchen counter with the rest of my siblings.

I don't know you, I don't know how many times you've cold turkey withdrawn off what drugs and how you handled it, so it's hard for me to say how you will handle this detox. But like jackcrack said, getting thru the physical part isn't the worst of it. When you don't taper (and sometimes even if you do) you will have lingering symptoms that will suck and will tempt you to use because you'll want to feel better. The best way to avoid the PAWS is to 1. Taper 2. Be healthy - exercise daily, eat a healthy diet and 3 Have a strong recovery. Also, being flexible enough to know that you can go back on a low dose of Sub if you need to is a good idea.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 10, 2010 10:14 am 
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Hi Everyone,

Been watching since last spring, went in for vics, and narcos, that I had been takeing for a year,chronic pain,the best man I ever knew passing away (my father) and so on. I have been on Subs for about 8 months and had a stress fracture in foot and asked how would I take pain medication without worring about going through wds again? Doc said just to stop sub which I was on 16 to 24mgs a day and slowley transition to the pain medication that he would help with the pa?in med taper that I should taper 1`1/2 of pain med every three days,so..... Hell here!!! Been day 12 off the sub but day 12 on the narco either way I"m screwed I am trying to only take 2 a day at this point narco's that is for three days then he said to go
from there do I taper the pain med or just go back on the sub and start over dont want to do this again so sick right now?
I know I am wd from something so I just want to finish this thing!!! Any advise? I think he would perscibe the other medications you all talk about the ambien and chlonodine to get me through, any thoughts. Really I do not want these narcos I am trying to wean, should I not take all together? Its been 12 days of one and on the other. Hope you get the jest of it all. Maybe twelve more days and I could be off both just dont know let me know your thoughts.

volley 82


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 10, 2010 10:48 am 
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Hi volley and welcome. I'm not sure I understand - you went off sub because you needed acute pain relief, is that right? Do you need to stay on the pain meds for a little while longer, or are you ready to go back on sub? It sounds like you might be withdrawing from sub due to not taking enough pain meds. Suboxone makes our tolerance very high and we need more than normal amounts of pain meds when we do need to treat acute pain.

If you need more pain relief you can take small amounts of sub along with the full agonist pain meds - like 2 mg. It's said to help with pain and it will definitely get you out of withdrawals. You might want to go to the "Links" section of the forum and see an NIH paper on treating acute pain in suboxone patients. It should give you a good understanding of what you might be going through and what might help you.

Good luck and let us know if I've misunderstood you at all and you need more info.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 10, 2010 11:09 am 
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hatmaker510 wrote:
Hi volley and welcome. I'm not sure I understand - you went off sub because you needed acute pain relief, is that right? Do you need to stay on the pain meds for a little while longer, or are you ready to go back on sub? It sounds like you might be withdrawing from sub due to not taking enough pain meds. Suboxone makes our tolerance very high and we need more than normal amounts of pain meds when we do need to treat acute pain.

If you need more pain relief you can take small amounts of sub along with the full agonist pain meds - like 2 mg. It's said to help with pain and it will definitely get you out of withdrawals. You might want to go to the "Links" section of the forum and see an NIH paper on treating acute pain in suboxone patients. It should give you a good understanding of what you might be going through and what might help you.

Good luck and let us know if I've misunderstood you at all and you need more info.


Thanks Hatmaker, yep you have it preety good Yes I did take it for acute pain but did nothing so I want off of course,
don't want to have it in my body if it is not helping. It was all I could do but beg my sub doc to even acknowledge my pain at this point he is concern of coure about the pain but was even afraid tp give me the 60 narco he gave me. You know if I have to go back to sub I will but been t I through 12 days already could I be on my way out though? If tuffing it out Im closer to not takeing anything thats great if not I could go back on sub and try the taper just hate being this sick ! I will check out the links too thanks. Anyone else who has any info would be great, thanks again for the response Hatemaker, Im pretty much alone here on my own. I heard will in detox last spring you could not take sub until you were in full withdrawl from the opiates I not sure what Im withdrawling from I could'nt be form the narco 12 days? Thanks again fell comfortable here.:)


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