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PostPosted: Mon Feb 21, 2011 12:11 am 
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Man it's hard not having opiods for the horrible back and neck pain :twisted: ! Since Subs don't really help for the
pain I see my chiropractor weekly : electrical stim,ultrasound,manipulation and DEEP tissue massage :D :D :D
My chiro also told me to take a ten minute hot shower at night and man that helps :wink: ! Oh and of course massive
amounts of Alleve and B-12 shots :lol: :lol: :lol:


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 Post subject: Back Pain
PostPosted: Mon Feb 21, 2011 8:05 am 
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Chiro's hate real drugs, they want you to use stuff like ( frog wart juice) only kidding, this forum is going through a sensitive period ( even the word period could get me in trouble )... Lets get serious , Have you had an MRI , so you really know whats going on, had I had an MRI when I really needed it, maybe I would not have needed a cervical fusion, and got hooked on pain meds.. My chiro did not want me to have an MRI, by the way you can go to a spine pain managment Dr and get some injections ( Usually with MRI films in your hand ) and not need any pain pills... Keep the fact that your on Suboxone private..... Good Luck................ This post is in no way bashing chiro's


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 21, 2011 8:21 am 
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I have two chronic pain conditions (both incurable - so far) and suboxone most definitely helps my pain. It doesn't completely erase it, but it does make my life much better and keeps the pain tolerable. That said, I realize sub doesn't help everyone's pain. Some pain is just simply too bad for sub to address it. Just wanted to throw my experience into the mix.

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 Post subject: Sub and pain
PostPosted: Mon Feb 21, 2011 1:17 pm 
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I have to say that I also don't think Sub is that great for pain, in my experience. I'm tapering off at this point, and a huge fear to me was an increase in pain. After a drop, my pain surges, specifically my fibro pain. It get horrible. However, if you take out the immediate whiplash of discomfort from a drop, my pain level for the fibro is not one bit worse than it was on 32 mg of Sub. This has been quite a surprise....a pretty welcome one. I guess it's different for everyone. I also don't think I would have even known that I could be okay w/o Sub for pain unless I tried to taper off, because it doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 07, 2011 10:19 pm 
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Hey tipper. Not that you aren't right but I thought the same thing about a year ago. I thought the sub wasn't helping for pain and I tapered off and never(missed any work! !!.) And realized four months without how much it was helping me. I got to where my siatica had me nonmobile and I started off at one mg a day and was fine from there on out. Now I take 6 mg and have for about eight months with only minor pain once in a while!!!! In my opinion. :roll:

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 08, 2011 3:21 pm 
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Make sure your pain doc is aware:

http://suboxonetalkzone.com/bupe.pain.pdf


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 31, 2011 12:20 pm 
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Glad, (and sorry) to read that someone else has pain from FM so they can relate. I also suffer from pinched or inflamed Siatic nerve pain. I have been off everything, including Subs, for a few months. I can honestly say they did just about nothing for the pain. Ibuprofen works better, and when you include the $$ of Subs, for me, they're just not worth it. My liver cannot be very happy though, having to take 16 Advil just to make the day bearable. So what do you do? The lowest dose med for FM is over $260.00/ month. Not possible for me. People say "once an addict, always an addict", but if this were true, why don't I eat my Xanax like I used to? Maybe because I learned from my mistakes, and don't want to go through w/drawals? Now I take them as prescribed because I know once I'm out, here come the w/drawals. Same with opiates. I've had a couple surgeries since getting off Subs with bottles of Percs on my desk and never once took more than what was prescribed for fear of getting hooked again. I now have a huge respect for opiates. If pills wern't your DOC, (or even if they were), isn't it possible to live a life WITH opiates, (trust me, I'd rather not, having to go through 3yrs of methadone w/drawal then 6 months of Sub w/drawal to get this far)? As of now I'm useless. I forgot how bad the pain is. 24/7. Waking up because of it, etc. BTW, I've had every test known to man multiple times, with the same diagnosis, Fibro, and have been on every med except Lyrica, which I cannot afford to try and treat it. I'm a shell of myself compared to being on Methadone, (not even an option in my mind. Too strong). But a low dose of Percs, Vics or Ultram would give me my life back. Can't people live while being on opiates? When someone really needs relief from pain, can't they learn from their mistakes and realize that with the pills they are a functioning human, and w/out them they would be in w/drawal mode that they would do anything to avoid? Isn't it possible to respect opiates even as a recovering addict? What do people recovering from opiate addiction do when they picked up opiates for their pain in the first place? Talk about a catch 22.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 31, 2011 1:09 pm 
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One of my two conditions is also fibro and as I said, it works fairly well for my pain. I also augment it with Zanaflex - a muscle relaxer. Of course everyone is different and everyone's pain is different.

Most addicts can never go back to using full agonists for CHRONIC pain ever again. Our brains have changed since the addiction and it can never go back. It's like a switch was flipped in our brain and it can't just be switched off. Now that said, again, everyone is different. If you end up the exception to the rule and can go forward and use full agonist opiates responsibly, then great...more power to you. But the vast majority of us cannot do that. One pill is never enough and always too much. And for addicts we always fool ourselves into thinking we have control when we don't. Whatever you end up doing, just please be careful. It's when we think that we're in control that this disease sneaks up on us and bites us in the ass. That's when relapses happen. Just be vigilant and learn ahead of time how to deal with triggers and cravings when they come up.

Have you tried muscle relaxers for your pain? I know many come in generics. What about Neurontin? It's also available in a generic - well, it has to be as it's been around so long. Do you not have insurance, I assume? Where I live, people with no insurance can go to their county health department to get basic medical care. You could check out your local county health department's website and see if they have any clinics. It's worth a try, right? Also, some county hospitals have resident clinics to treat the uninsured, too. As for prescriptions, I know Target discounts their prescriptions for uninsured people as well.

I hope this helps you a bit. Keep asking questions if you need to. I really hope you find something to help with the pain soon. I know what it's like to be in your position and I know firsthand how very much it SUCKS!! Keep us posted on how you're doing.

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 31, 2011 4:47 pm 
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Yes, I have been on muscle relaxers, Flexril, and when I told my dr. it did nothing but make me sleepy, his response was to take it at night. Point being, it was useless. Unfortunately, I do not have ins. because of a layoff, and all the new jobs are part-time. Living in N.H. has a very contradicting motto. They got the "or die" part right, but no one "lives free". Getting medical coverage is nearly impossible here, and even though they gave me a card to get free medical for 6 months through my hospitals E.R. visits, it still doesn't cover meds. I've seen multiple dr's and specialists. Had all the tests run, then run again. Free medical doesn't help with the meds though. Looking online for help with FM, it seems I've been prescribed everything but Lyrica or long-term opiates. All the safe anti-depressants, Cymbalta, anti-convulsants, benzos and anti-seizure meds have been crossed off the list. Unfortunately I will be starting off with a new PCP, as mine retired. I don't want to go around in circles again looking for help when I know what works. I was told at 19yrs old to "learn to live w/it". Now in my mid 30's I don't want to live with it and I'm already tired of saying "no" when someone asks me to go do something. I used to live for the outdoors, now I may as well be in a nursing home. I've heard good things about medicinal marijuana, but first, it's illegal, plus I had my fun in the sun with it years ago and would like to leave it back there. As of now I am in the best shape of my life because of w/drawing from opiates and doing all the things that help make the transition to sobriety easier and trying to continue to do so. I would rather not smoke anything if not necessary. Seems I strech all the time, have been to a chiro, P.T., did electro-whatever-you-call-it, and can't do Yoga because I can't sit still or lie on my back. But therein lies the problem. How do I continue staying in shape when doing the basic hurts? So far this summer has been a waste. It's too bad Lyrica has many more years before it becomes a generic. Then again, I have heard you can get high off that too. WTF!


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 31, 2011 8:30 pm 
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Nice to know I am not the only one who thinks that the word pain relief and suboxone should not be in the same sentence. Because it is BS Suboxone does not work for chronic pain unless you are taking other medications along with suboxone as in muscle relaxers, joint meds and any other non narcotic pain meds. But these DRs continue to tell people it will which one confuses me two upsets me. I just don’t get why a Dr would continue to say this when the facts show different for many people. And there is a difference between pain relief and being pain free, if I am taking any type of narcotic which suboxone is I want to be pain free or as close to as possible. I don’t want to be drooling on myself but at the same time I want to be able to live as normal of life as I could and I am sick of my pain holding me back while I was on Suboxone but ever since my switch to methadone besides being constipated I really don’t have that bad of pain anymore at 130mg. And it is nice to wake up knowing my pain is no longer controlling my life. I just think people need to wake up and realize suboxone and pain is still a big question mark and we are basically lab rats/genuine pigs when it comes to this topic. Because they don’t know all the facts but more than anything they have no idea on what long term suboxone use will do to the human body physically and emotionally and if you look at my one thread does suboxone make you emotionless many people are dealing with this and that was not suppose to happen so what else can happen with long term use.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 2011 12:35 am 
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Back to your question quadracer, it may be possible for someone who has learned their lesson to use opiates responsibly (I said "may be"), but the problem is that opiates cause tolerance in EVERYONE, not just addicts. So if you were able to take a reasonable dose in the manner it was prescribed, it STILL wouldn't work for you a few weeks down the road. Then you would have to raise your dose. Then the cycle would repeat again in a few more weeks. Repeat. Repeat. And once you get to the higher doses some people get hyperalgesia. So opiates just aren't good for chronic pain.

My concern is that 16 Advils is unsustainable. My SIL was on high doses like that and she ended up with a bleeding esophagus. Are there any other NSAIDS you can check into? I recently started Piroxicam, and it really seems to help, but I don't have Fibro. I hope you can find something that works.
Good luck,
Lilly


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 2011 8:51 am 
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Bboy42287 wrote:
Nice to know I am not the only one who thinks that the word pain relief and suboxone should not be in the same sentence. Because it is BS Suboxone does not work for chronic pain unless you are taking other medications along with suboxone as in muscle relaxers, joint meds and any other non narcotic pain meds. But these DRs continue to tell people it will which one confuses me two upsets me. I just don’t get why a Dr would continue to say this when the facts show different for many people. And there is a difference between pain relief and being pain free, if I am taking any type of narcotic which suboxone is I want to be pain free or as close to as possible. I don’t want to be drooling on myself but at the same time I want to be able to live as normal of life as I could and I am sick of my pain holding me back while I was on Suboxone but ever since my switch to methadone besides being constipated I really don’t have that bad of pain anymore at 130mg. And it is nice to wake up knowing my pain is no longer controlling my life. I just think people need to wake up and realize suboxone and pain is still a big question mark and we are basically lab rats/genuine pigs when it comes to this topic. Because they don’t know all the facts but more than anything they have no idea on what long term suboxone use will do to the human body physically and emotionally and if you look at my one thread does suboxone make you emotionless many people are dealing with this and that was not suppose to happen so what else can happen with long term use.


Bboy, we've been through this. Just because sub doesn't work for everyone's pain doesn't mean it doesn't work for some people's pain. Besides, just because I happen to use muscle relaxers, doesn't mean others do. My pain happens to be helped by them, but many people don't even benefit from them. So don't make the assumption that everyone taking sub for pain augments their chronic pain treatment with other non-narcotic pain meds. It's as though you cannot accept the fact that just because it didn't help YOUR pain it can't possibly be of benefit to others. Suboxone is no different from other meds in that everyone responds differently to it. As I've said a lot lately, nothing in life is a one-size-fits all and using sub for pain is no different.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 2011 11:34 am 
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Lillyval, yes I have been put on NSAIDS. This was years ago when my PCP wouldn't even consider opiates, so instead he put me on 400mg's/day of Celebrex along with Paxil and Flexril. I'd say that took away about 60% of my pain. Now, people know that even 200mg's/day is very dangerous dose of this med to the liver, stomach, etc. As for the OTC meds, Alieve is by far the worst for help with FM flares. Anti-inflamatories don't help too much, maybe a little with the siatic nerve inflamation. From there I went to Oxy's, then "H". You say that "opiates can cause tolerance in EVERYONE", which I totally agree with. But take my addiction out of the equation for a few seconds; what do people who need opiates to take their pain away do? If everyone grows a tolerance with them, what do they do when a tolerance is reached? I ask because I don't know anyone with this problem, so advice is welcome. That would be me as of right now, it just so happens that I found them w/out a script and became addicted. I would be totally happy to be put on some kind of opiate, then when my tolerance was going up, detox off them with help from my dr, then in a couple months go back to my original dose. In no way am I trying to come off as wanting to get back onto opiates, it's just the only thing that I know that works. I let all my drs' know within the first few seconds that I am a recovering opiate addict. So nothing gets hidden. I had a life and did my best work, and got the best promotions, while on opiates. Other than financially drained, I was a productive, pain-free citizen. Wondering if an MAOI would raise dopamine production enough to help w/pain? Also, anyone give thumbs up or down to Lyrica.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 2011 11:50 am 
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I have fibro and Lyrica didn't do shit for me. BUT, I do know people that it does help, so it might very well help you. Just be aware that it has a risk of abuse.

I know you asked Lilly this, so I hope you don't mind if I comment. People who aren't addicted but have been on opiates for years with high tolerances are referred to as dependent only. I have an aunt like that. There's a huge difference between a person who's addicted and one who is dependent only. Think about the difference in their behavior, what they do to get their drugs, running out early every month, buying on the street, what it does to their family and other relationships....some people lose jobs, some people lose their freedom, some their families. And some are more functional than others. But one thing is almost always true about addiction - it never stays stays the status quo. Eventually it will start to snowball and when that happens you just can't stop it. It only leads to a dead end road and self destruction. You can think you have a handle on the addiction, but that's when relapses surprise people.

Oh and depending on your tolerance and addiction history, two months might not be enough time to lower your tolerance back to "normal". And often with addicts, even if it does return to "normal", it simply doesn't stay low. It's like something changed in our brains and now our tolerance creeps back up very quickly or something. I have no source to back that up, it just seems to be the case, based on my observations.

Again, I hope you don't mind me responding.

Just my two cents. Oh and there's another new medication for fibro. It's called Savella. I tried it and it helped me greatly. I had to go off it for other reasons. Maybe try that.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 02, 2011 10:54 am 
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I was prescribed huge amounts of oxycodone by my family doctor for approx 4-5 years for terrible neck pain. At the end I was taking 3 X 80mg Oxycontin/day along w/ 9-10 of the 30mg Oxy IR/day. My tolerance just kept going up & for a while my pain levels kept going up too. Back in March of this year I had my 3rd spinal surgery to fuse several vertebrae in my neck. I now have 12 screws, 3 titanium plates & 2 "cages" in my neck. I was fortunate & the surgery helped me enough that I still had pain but nothing like it was. I decided I was well enough to try to get off the narcotics. I could've easily kept getting pain meds. On any given day I could probably go find a doctor to write a script for me but I was just so tired of the whole damn thing. Even though my meds were prescribed to me by a doctor there were many days I would take a few more than I was supposed to only to panic at the end of the month & hav to ration what little I had left. I hated worrying if my doctor would one day decide he wasn't going to write my scripts anymore or if he'd be on vacation when I needed my next script. I was terrified of running out & going thru W/Ds...I'd been thru that many years ago & didn't want to do it again. On my own I began researching Suboxone & checked out this forum for advice. I made up my mind I was going to do it. One of my biggest concerns was the pain I was still experiencing. I am not 100% better & I never will be but I am much better than before. I have to say that Suboxone has definitely helped me with my pain! My sub doctor told me that I could split up my 16mg/day dose & take it thru-out the day but I just feel like that's getting right back to where I was. I don't want to be thinking about my pain & meds all day anymore. I do take my Suboxone at 3 different times but I am working towards one dose in the morning (hopefully). I am so thankful that I am not suffering anymore & I'm not controlled by those little pills! Tomorrow it will be 1 week that I'm on Suboxone & I feel so much better!


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 02, 2011 11:37 am 
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Hi everyone, I was on oxycontin for pain for 9 months. At first it worked but we all know that doesn't last. The Dr. kept increasing my dose and then in May I had surgery which did not take away all the pain but did knock it down. After surgery I still had enough pain that I needed something but absolutely did not want to be on oxycontin anymore. Then I heard about Suboxone. I had pretty low expectations of it actually helping but decided to try it. To my suprise it helps my pain a good amount. In no way does it take it all away but it does take the edge off. IMO it works better than the oxycontin did because the relief from the oxycontin would only last a couple weeks before needing more. I have been on Sub for a little over 2 months and it still works as good today as it did when I started. Now there are days that I have to take ibuprofen or tramadol to help, but most days the Sub is enough. I must say though I take 16 mgs split up thru out the day. If i take it all at once it does not help my pain much after lunch time. Anyway this has been my experience with Sub as a pain reliever and i am so happy i made this choice!

I would also like to say a thank you to Dr. Junig and all the members for providing such a great website. I have learned so much and it is so refreshing to see how many people care about complete strangers and sincerely want to help. I hope as I gain more knowledge I will be able to add to the quality of this forum!


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 02, 2011 11:41 am 
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Sorry for the double post, I guess I have some learning to do!


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 02, 2011 2:07 pm 
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I deleted your double post - no worries. For those taking sub for pain, it's normal to have to dose more than once per day, as sub's pain properties only last about 4-6 hours. If taken only once per day, like those who take it only for addiction, there will be no pain relief later in the day. Just FYI.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 02, 2011 3:50 pm 
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I understand what you mean Hat I guess I just have a much different outlook on what you should get out of a pain management medication what it comes down to is you either think that means it helps or lets you be pain free.


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 02, 2011 9:28 pm 
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quadracersteve wrote:
You say that "opiates can cause tolerance in EVERYONE", which I totally agree with. But take my addiction out of the equation for a few seconds; what do people who need opiates to take their pain away do? If everyone grows a tolerance with them, what do they do when a tolerance is reached? I ask because I don't know anyone with this problem, so advice is welcome.


I guess I'm not entirely sure what you are asking when you say that you don't know anyone with this problem. Do you mean that you know others taking opiates for chronic pain that do not require ever increasing dosages due to tolerance?

It's my understanding that tolerance is the "fatal flaw" of opiate drugs. If it weren't for tolerance many, many adverse events could be largely avoided (like drug seeking by addicts that can't get enough to feed their habits, or overdoses by those at the high end of the dosing spectrum). Elsewhere on this forum I read recently that some doctors are saying upfront that they don't precribe opiates outside of a hospital setting. Opiates are wonderful drugs that have alleviated a lot of suffering (think battlefields and cancer wards) but they just have this serious limitation, that they stop working over time. I think if I, or any one of us, could solve this dilemma, we would be rich.

You mentionned dopamine. Wellbutrin type drugs are said to raise dopamine levels. I wonder if something like that would help.
Feel better,
Lilly


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