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 Post subject: Extreme Pain in knees
PostPosted: Sat Dec 19, 2009 7:36 am 
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Help, my son was induced at 8:30 pm. It's 3:30 a.m. now. He's been screaming for 3 hours that his knees are burning and killing him. He's had 3 (8mg) doses of suboxone, 2 of the anti nausea, 2 soma, 2 tylenol. The screaming and thrashing just go on and on. What is this? What to do? Help!


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 19, 2009 11:42 am 
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Hi crazymom-

WOW - this is horrible! Few things (my opinion only - I am not an MD).

#1 - is to call your doctor and talk
#2 - is to really find out if somehow suboxone was started before all the opiates were out of his system.
#3 - double checking - he dissolved the pill in his mouth right? Otherwise it will not work.

Suboxone is stronger at blocking the opiate receptors, and if there was any left over opiates in his system (some people 'cheat' taking a drug/pill like percocet or a patch) trying to avoid withdrawal symptoms, start suboxone without being in withdrawal and this is exactly what happens.

Suboxone has to be taken when a person is in mild to moderate withdrawal symptoms. Much of what you are describing would fit the strongest part of withdrawal symptoms - joint pain, muscle spasms, etc.

Simple things can help as you ride this out. You can search this forum for 'precipitated withdrawal' and there is other information as well. I am so sorry.

It is quite unlikely that this is from suboxone. I am not a doctor, (anything is possible) - but most likely - he may not have been in mild to moderate withdrawals before he took his 8mg. We had a forum posting a while ago that said they took suboxone by swallowing and it didn't work (suboxone must be dissolved under tongue - saliva on cheeks, mouth, gums, etc.)

If you can share with the forum what you 'know' he was/is taking from a regular drug (lortab, percocet, fentanyl patch, methadone, heroin), we may be able to help you better.

My understanding (opinion only) is that your son is experiencing withdrawal brought on by suboxone taken before the patient was at the proper withdrwawal stage, or he didn't take suboxone right and is in withdrawal from his drug of choice.

It's the worst. This is why most of us are on suboxone - the withdrawal he is experiencing is pretty much what he would have experienced if he "Just Quit." Suboxone just gave that to him immediately. Now you have to likely wait it out. 36 -- or so hours probably. Again, your doctor can tell you best - but suboxone is stronger than typical opiates, and will cause immediate withdrawal - if they are not in mild to moderate withdrawal before they start. Sorry to hear about this.

Please keep us posted.


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 Post subject: screaming
PostPosted: Sat Dec 19, 2009 5:25 pm 
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Lathe dude,
He had a pretty nasty Heroin habit. He swears he took only a dime at 7pm the night before and was 24 hours in withdrawal. Since the induction was in the evening, they gave him a couple of valium to help him maintain. The doctor said there was still "some" heroin in his urine test. He also did a "little" coke that day.

For those of you thinking about cheating...He screamed from midnight to 7 a.m this morning. The hospital would not take him, his doctor did not call till 8 this morning. He kicked his legs. He howled in agony. His dad and I took turns holding him so that he would not hurt himself. His limbs and head moved involuntarily.

Without a doubt, nothing I mean absolutely NOTHING I have ever seen was ever this stressful. I have sat in the hospital for 7 days with my son through a grueling surgery and even that was not as bad as this. I would not let his girlfriend come over. I was afraid that she would be so scared, she'd leave him.

It's now 1 pm here. He woke up and I gave him a bowl of oatmeal and his dad got him into a warm bath.

I gave him to promethizine and am waiting for it to kick in before giving him the next 2 tabs of sub.

His doctor called and said...withdrawal? Imagined or real pain? The mind plays some nasty tricks. We are returning
to the doc at 5pm tonight (Saturday). So he can check him out to make sure he's okay. He says that other patients have had burning in their limbs, sorted out by lamictol (sp?). He doesn't know what's going on.

For the first time in my life, I feel old. Really, really old.

Thank you for your help.


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 Post subject: Still hard to tell...
PostPosted: Sat Dec 19, 2009 6:00 pm 
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From the information that you have provided thus far, it is still a little bit difficult to tell if this was precipitated withdrawal or not, but it is certainly starting to sound like that's what went on here. I have never felt it (thank God) and never even seen it. However, I have heard and read the horror stories of this and can tell you that I would not wish it on anyone. If he continues to get better, pretty much on his own, over the next 24-48 hours and then stays better, it is very likely that precipitated withdrawals is what went on here. I would never wish that on anyone but if he cheated and told everyone that he had not had any opiates for 24 hours, when he really did, this is the unfortunate consequence to that. The really sad part of all of it is there is really nothing that you can do. Once the Suboxone got in there and took over all of the receptors, there really were not a lot of options left. Certainly a benzo like Valium might help a little bit, but as you can see, it will only do so much.

Please stop back and let us know what the doctor tells you and how things go. If this ends up being a precipitated withdrawal experience, it will be a very important post for other readers here to see. At least you and your son may help prevent this from happening to someone else.

Also, you made a statement that "the hospital would not take him." What did you mean by that? Did they refuse to see him in the emergency department or just refuse to admit him to the hospital? I certainly hope they didn't refuse to see or examine him. That would be very odd - not to mention illegal.


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 20, 2009 1:52 pm 
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Hi crazymom!

I hope you visit us and keep us up to date.. I also hope you son is eventually is well enough to join us on the forum!

I appreciate your posts.

Because I have never had a heroin habit, I feel unable to give you very specific answers. I do believe that you, your husband, and your son will do well by learning about suboxone as a treatment for dependence/addiction. Maybe you already have.

donh has posted some SUPER good posts lately about how this medication works. I'm looking up the link to the latest discussion. Here: http://suboxforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=1202

If you are reading this (I PRAY) - I believe anyone who is reading this post from you is hurting for your son and you guys. By one path or another we are all here. Some of us are here - after years of dependence on pills, others - heroin. All of us have a disease to opiates.

It sounds like, from your language, you are street smartER than I am about heroin. I know that many clinics choose the route of methadone over suboxone for heroin addicts. Have you been there / done that?

From a clinical perspective, understanding what suboxone does is not that difficult. Knowing how a body will react, how a person will do, there is the variable.

If you read through the above link, you'll see a term 'opiate receptor.' Interestingly enough there are lots of opiate receptors in the human body. Opiate receptors in the brain - if 'blocked' by a medication like heroin, methadone, percocet, oxycontin - they give the patient relief from the pain. The same receptors - though - such as in the intestine are also blocked. That often leads us to have constipation as the gut doesn't work right.

Step in Suboxone (suboxone = buprenorphine and naloxone). It is not in the same class of medications as heroin, methadone, percocet, oxycontin, etc. Those are called 'Full-agonist' drugs. buprenorphine is 'Partial agonist' drug. naloxone is in there as a full-agonist to prevent making an IV, or abuse.

What has been found, to my GREAT PLEASURE AND APPRECIATION, is that suboxone is stronger at attachment to the same opiate receptors heroin, percs, etc. did. AND they don't let go for a half life of ~ 37 hours on average. So, if you put suboxone, and any other opiate in competition in the body - the stronger wins - Suboxone.

The HUGE difference is how the body deals with that. You have told us about a scenario of how suboxone won the battle, but your son's body lost. BIG/FAST withdrawals - maybe enhanced by immediate removal of the heroin blocking that was built up in his body. We are all so sorry about that! I have noticed that since being part of the forum, many doctors are not as educated as we think. Some are fantastic - the key seems to be armed with information and talk - create a TEAM with the doctors, and plan. For instance, we have had people here who are on methadone (a full agonist opiate) - but at like 100mg's a day. Because they read here, they found out a couple things. #1 - tolerance to methadone is the same as tolerance to heroin, or other meds - and that they need to 'taper' down on methadone to around (rule of thumb) 30mg's a day; and stay there for a week or two, then take none for 36 hours or more to get to mild/moderate withdrawal, then started sub.

Anyway - hope to hear how things are going! Thanks.


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 Post subject: RE:
PostPosted: Wed Mar 17, 2010 1:53 am 
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Hope you all know that Hypnosis has been used for pain relief for centuries, and even today is used in surgical procedures. Pain relief with hypnosis has been shown to work by lowering the brain's response to pain signals, and it is possible to learn how to manage your own pain quickly. Thats why I got Hypnotherapy Treatment from thoughtsbecomereality.co.uk


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