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PostPosted: Sat Mar 19, 2011 4:43 pm 
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Please don't think I'm bashing on anyone in particular, but why is it that we have this mindset of always looking for something to 'cure' us?
Ok you have an opiate habit, so you get suboxone treatment and it works fine for several years but then you start reducing for whatever reason and then.....
WHY DO YOU WANT TO TAKE YET ANOTHER SUBSTANCE ONCE YOUR SUBS ARE GONE???
I don't really care if I get banned from this forum permanently, but I WILL say this...
GROW SOME BALLS AND STOP LOOKING FOR CHEMICAL CRUTCHES!
Ibogaine sheeesh! HEADHUNTERS take that shit so they can ask the gods to make them victorious in battle!
GIVE THE SUBSTANCES A REST FOR GODS SAKE!

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 19, 2011 5:45 pm 
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SneakyElephant wrote:
Please don't think I'm bashing on anyone in particular, but why is it that we have this mindset of always looking for something to 'cure' us?
Ok you have an opiate habit, so you get suboxone treatment and it works fine for several years but then you start reducing for whatever reason and then.....
WHY DO YOU WANT TO TAKE YET ANOTHER SUBSTANCE ONCE YOUR SUBS ARE GONE???
I don't really care if I get banned from this forum permanently, but I WILL say this...
GROW SOME BALLS AND STOP LOOKING FOR CHEMICAL CRUTCHES!
Ibogaine sheeesh! HEADHUNTERS take that shit so they can ask the gods to make them victorious in battle!
GIVE THE SUBSTANCES A REST FOR GODS SAKE!


Well... since you dont know me or my story I will ignore the slander. I have no idea what else your trying to say so hard to comment on it. Looking for a crutch???? I take it your totally drug free including sub? Or is sub your crutch?


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 19, 2011 6:26 pm 
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SNeaky,

Let me rephrase my response... since this site really don't tolerate debates.

You can run your program the way you chose and I will run my program. To assume you know me or what my intention are ... well just foolish. Same for me assuming your program.

We are all here for the same thing I believe. That is for support. Support and information. Not to debate what one choses for themselves. I was very please when I checked back to see if anyone answered me... very please getting the response that I did. My pvt Md admits he knows little about how to wean off suboxone and suggested that I go on line and read about it and ask those who had the experience. I first visited nabbt as I use to be a member but cant remember my password ... I tried Subsux but got banned for repeating what a long term member accidental let us know... I didn't trust the fact that they give out ip addresses behind some hidden forum... really who can trust a site that will give the members your ip address. Nasty place. I read here for a bit before I joined. I join because here you don't have a war zone that allows members too trash you and anyone else. Suppose to be a non sensor forum but sure did sensor me when I repeated they were giving out ip address. Deleted my post and my name. ALL this from one of their long term members. I guess since she has been there for years... she can trash anyone she wants.

I came here for information. I got it. And I got correct information. I am a not here to fight, discredit anyone nor judge anyone for their choices.. I would appreciate the same pls.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 04, 2011 6:06 pm 
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i love documentaries..im too lazy right now to post link but w all the ibogaine talk, this is 1 guys experience....i dont agree but whatever,,,still is a good watch,,,go to utube and search detox or die


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 05, 2011 12:41 pm 
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I go in three days for my tx. I have sub behind me enough to undergo the tx. I cant wait. So excited and ready to put opiates behind me completely. I have be able to lower my morphine dose quit a bit so I am told it will make the experinece easier. Also the less opiates in my system the better chance for vision state.

THREE MORE DAYS!!!!!!!

I will come back and post my experience.. I know there are a few of you out there that is interested.

THREE MORE DAYS!!!!!!!!


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 08, 2011 12:29 pm 
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deleted.. by me. not sure how.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 08, 2011 12:35 pm 
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Well, that's weird, isn't it....

I'm so happy and excited for you! I cannot wait to hear all about it, and I bet I'm not the only one on here who wants to hear the details. I hope you feel much better afterward and you trip home is comfy. Thanks for sharing this with us!!

laddertipper

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 08, 2011 1:06 pm 
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ok.... hell why not post about me. I did post this long post, well not real long but thought it better I delete it. Then sitting here thinking why should I. I just got off the phone with my wife. I am now sitting here at the place I am gonna get my iboga treatment and a bit nervous. I guess it normal.

Anyways.. last night was my last dope that I will ingest hopefully for life. Sittig here waiting for wd to kick in so we can get started. This is the first time that I feel anxious about it. I guess and she says it normal. Sorta wish I didnt take that last pill of morphine and jsut got thru the night. This lady says its important that I get a good night sleep and be well rested ... we sat up till 3 and talked about what to expect and what I need to do after this is over.

Ladder... I flew in and will fly out since she says its not safe to drive for the first week. She wont allow anyone to drive away. I will post my experinece for sure. I brought my lap top for the sleepless nights she said I will have for the next 3-5 days. She has given me the load down before I got here and again last night. She said she is given me the worse case and that way if its better I will apprieciate it more. LOL. The worse case dosnt sound as bad as it was the 3- or so times I tried to get off sub. So I am ready. No food today and starting to get hungry.. only drinking water and gateraid. My room is big and has drawing/stuff from her past clients. I will have to make something myself I think. Well, that is saying this works for me. She promises me that I will get thru the wd and get a anywhere from 2-8 mo free of cravings. She wont promise the vision state. She says those that have sub in the near hixtory sometimes dont get any visions. I hope I do but thats not the reason I am here. Capt's neice said she got vision after vison. So many she could bearly keep up. She didnt have sub in her histery though. Capt refuse to allow it. She has a "small" habit according to capt and no need for the big guns like sub. He thinks that why he was banned from here due to his stand on his neice going on sub. His brother is a MD and all for IBogaine. Thats is saying something I think. My MD for sure knew a lot about it.. lol, I wonder if he is a closet addict? ANyways he was real helpful in getting me prepared for the experience as Sister puts it.

Ladder... I promise I will post how it went, good or bad. Dont want to be the cause for someone choseing this and it crap. But this is so much cheaper the rehab and detox. I cant tell you all how much monies I have put out for detox in the last 20 yrs. I did the Wiesman method that was so tramatic and full of crap... would never suggest to my worse enemy to do that. Never suffered so bad in my life. I will still get flashes when under floresent lights. Brings back the memory fast. it was horrible and I paid dearly for it. I think I lasted less then a week after that horrible ordeal. I have been to rehab 4 or 5 times. INsuance paid for the first 3 then out of pocket for the last but only could afford 2 weeks worth. then no monies and they showed me the door... but did give me the first week of sub for free. LOL... I was already thru the wd but you know how addicts are. anything not to feel pain so I started ont them. I do wonder why they gave them to me after I was already thru the wd... I guess to help thier stats. Not that they consider you clean on them but legal and said it breaks habits. Thats sorta true for me. I did have a secret yourning for the needle.. I even shot up clean water for the hell of it a few times. I dont think of needles anymore.

I know I am babbleing. trying to stay calm while waiting. This chic that sits for ya dont believe in given ya a pill to calm you. she says we need to learn how to work thru anxiety with out reaching for dope. I agree but hell... sure would take a valium in a ny min. Looks like I wont sleep miuch for the next few days. The only thing she will give ya is melatonine. Says we need to learn how to work thru that too. She said better here where its safe then later at home where I have reached for dope to sleep.

Lots of info she went over last night. Showed me a bunch of amino's she suggest. well really only a few. Fish oil, esthanextan for pain and multi vit with a few amino's mix in. She has a load of stuff on the counter but she taylors to each ones needs. Did I say my anxiety level is rising? well it is. lol.

I was told that I may not feel like reading or writing for a few days.. that the worse case. she also said she has seen some come thru it, ask for food and go for a short walk the day after.. never know till we get there. But I will post how it went. Pretty damn cheap if it works. I know I cant hold up to month to years of paws... been there and tried that. didnt work for me. she also siad that I problly wasnt ready to get clean. She has seen many get clean without ibogaine and stay clean. its not the only way but for me I have tried everything under the sun. From ct to maintaince , wissman (sp) rehabs, hospital detoxes meth then last but not least sub. I feel like this is my last chance. Well, gonna go down stairs and watch Avatar. about the only thing she will allow. No news, no papper or movies unless they are basiclly disney. LOl.... she want thsi to be the best expeience she can poss offer. Makes sense I guess. Miss my mornng coffee too. I may be able to stop smoking too but she said to concentrate on staying off dope first.. anyting else is just extra.

later... will post in a few days.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 11, 2011 7:53 am 
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Wow... I cant believe its the 11th already. I just wanted to post my expeience with ibogaine as I promise a few folks here that I would.

Forgive the misspellings, grammer but have not had but a few hours sleep since the treatment and cant seem to close my eyes.

First..it was all I was told it would be. I arrived and spent some time with my sitter. We just talked about our experineces in life and she answered all my questions the first night. I took my last morphine pill on thrusday nite about 8pm. The provider then went thru all my things to ensure I had nothing else with me. She talked to my wife, talked with me and let me spill out my life story. Friday I sat around waiting for the wd to kick in... I have to admit that is when the anxiety set in. Not really fear of the ibogaine, maybe a little but just the antipication of it all. Finally I began the normal sweating and pacing, she checked my blood pressre and oxygen levels and gave me one pill. We again just sat around talking and the wd began to get worse. She said it would take about 45mins and then it would go away. She was right on the marker. She kepts asking me to rate my wd from one to ten. At the 45 min mark I was down to a one.
At this point I did feel the medication a little. I was slightly wobbly on my feet and things just seem to be louder. I was much calmer too, The colors in the room seem brighter and I could smell the grass outside. I stayed up just talking, walking around while she kept close eye on me. then about three or 3 1/2hrs later she gave me three pills. She ask me to stay more focused on what I wanted from the medication. I wrote four things down on paper and stuck them in my pocket. Of course the major thing I wanted was to get thru the wd as easy as possible.. 2 thing was to stop smoking, 3 thing was to learn how to live dope free and understand why I let it get to this point. 4 thing was a better relationship with my family.
About 1/2 hour later I started to feel the medication. This time I knew it was going to be more then what I expected. I could feel my body relax more and knew I was in for a ride. She ask me to go upstairs with her and lay down in my bed. I did this willing for sure. I made a bathroom visit then laid down. All kinds of shit was going thru my mind. racing thru my mind really. The sitter kept taking my blood pressure and listening to my heart/lungs, ask if I had any discomforts or wanted anything. She did say no water for a bit to be sure I didnt throw it up. Soon I heard bee's bussing around the back of my head and told her. She smiles at me and said just let go and not to worry, she would be right there if I needed her. that smile made me feel really calm and I felt like I was in good hands so I laid back and was gonna try and enjoy the ride. She put on this real nice music.. sorta drumming like stuff (forgot my ipod). Soon that music got real loud like as if she put the speakers right next to my head. The room was so damn bright even though the sun was about to go down. She offered me a eye cover but said she might take it off later. I opted no. she offered me a sip of water and sat on her rocker with a smile on her face. She reminded me that if I didnt like what I was thinking or seeing just open my eyes. It was wired. with my eyes close everything was so bright and colorfull, when I open my eyes everything was pretty close to nomral except how loud everything was. I could hear these spanish speaking kids playing outside but it sounded like they were in my room. Even with my eyes clsoe I could hear her rocking chair rock. it seem like she check my blood presser a lot for while and I remember her saying that I am about to go deeper. Funny when she said that I though HEll, how much deeper can I go?. She ask me to take another pill and I did. Right after I took that pill I started seeing a hole in the ceiling and felt like part of me was going up in the air. I open my eyes to be sure there wasnt a hole and looked at the sitter. she was still sitting there with a smile. ask me if I was ok and offered me some water. I didnt want to move my head because It felt like I might throw up. It was like she read my mind and she put the trash can right next to me. She said go ahead and "purge" if I felt like it. I did like as if it was gonna hit china. she put a cool rag around my neck and the nausea went away. I dont really know how much longer but I started watching my kids play in the yard. they were giggling and laughing then all of a sudden stop and looked at me. my oldest said. "time for you to come home to us dad... we really have missed you for so long". I started to cry. I felt like I cried for hours. I watch my wife cook them lunch and every now and then she would look at me and say.."so proud of you for taking care of this". I started to cry again. I must of cried out loud cause the sitter then put her hand on my chest and said it was gonna be ok. that touch really gave me so much comfort it hard to explain. I think i then fell asleep but not really normal sleep. I could feel every cell in my body shrink up and then expand again. I think I threw up again but not sure. I did have a few more dreams but really cant talk about it right now... maybe in a few days. I did see this black women who kept coming and going. she sometimes look calm and smiling and sometimes she looked pissed at me. when I did see her I would open my eyes and poof,, she be gone. Not sure what her story was... sorta felt like she was just watching over me or protecting me sorta. I never heard her talk and she sorta hoovered over the side of the bed. I could feel her when she was there...not that I was scared of her but I didnt want her to talk either.

My body was so heavy it seem like it took a hour to turn over to my side. My arms and legs felt like they were a ton. I dont remember sweating but do remember the sitter wiping my face with a cool rag. The next thing I remember was the sitter saying I was about 80% thru it and if I was ok. she was checking my bp and had this machine on my finger. She ask me to take another pill but I refused... now I wish I did but didnt want to go back to where I was again.. I wanted it to be over. she didnt push it hard so I figured it was ok that I didnt. Seem like I was in that state for a long long time. then I noticed hearing the birds outside and the sun coming up. I KNEW I wasnt addicted anymore... I could feel it. I felt like shit though. Iwas exhausted to the point of being irratible. I just layed around most of the day. I did email my wife and think I email a few friends but cant find them on my pc. I cried alot thru the day and really cant tell you why. wasnt in that dreamy state but wasnt myself either. hard to explain.
The sitter promise me that tomrrow I would feel 50% better. I wasnt in wd but really felt like shit. By that night I was feeling so much better I got up and went downstairs. I sat on the porch for a bit with the sitter. I tried to tell her about it but untill last night really couldnt talk clearly. I only slept about two hours. the sitter said It would be a few days before I slept well.

I can say for sure that I am no longer addicted to shit. Not even ciggs. I dint have to feel any wd except for that first hour before she gave me the first pill.

The sitter got up with me at 3am... she only has had a few hours sleep herself but she is not complaining. She told me that due to the suboxone I would prob need a few boosters. that many folk after a month or so will start feeling the paws again. I am to take a small booster in two weeks then again at the month marker if I felt the paws creeping back. Also she is giving me rootbark. its the actual bark of the tree grined up and put in a pill. this is to help me thru the paws. For sub addicts the first yr is hard. we need more boosters then H addicts. she told me H addicts do the best with iboga. they seem only to need the first detox and done with it. sub addicts have to endure more paws but the boosters help alot. She wants me to stay intouch with her for the next yr. If I see depression or lethargy coming on to call her. Also to take omega fish oil, mult vits. and b complex. Today she is given me a b12 shot and before I leave a big dose of vit d. she is given me another big dose of vit d to take home with me and I am to take it in two weeks. After this we stay intouch and treat by symptoms.

I cant tell you how much better, clearer and alive I feel. Smells like grass and flowers are amazing. I had no ideal just how oppressed I was by the sub till now. I know you all think it dosnt get you high but damn... wait till you feel the difference. It almost scary that I actually drove a car with my kids in it while taking sub and the dam morphine. actually I felt clearer on the morphine then the sub. I am sure this will piss many of you off but when and if you get off the sub you will see what I mean. NO one could tell me that I was getting high on sub... after a meeting one night when I first met Capt he tried to tell me I was high on sub.. I remember trying to argue with him.. he wouldnt. I thought he was sitting on his high horse judging me for chosing sub. He pissed me off. soon I changed my mind about him after I got to know him better. I didnt think he was judging me but just misinformed. Well.. now I know what he was saying.. I was the misinformed one.
Sister went back to bed to try and catch up on sleep but today she is going to take me on the water if I feel like it. I do. I want to get started with my life and NOW.

There is a ashtry down stairs and I can smell it up here. strange. I go home tonight if the sitter feels I am ready. I am.. I feel great. I am tired but still feel great. I am so excited to get home to my kids and wife. I have so much time to make up for. I have been so absent without even seeing it. My soul has really been dead. I cant wait to hug them, talk to them. I want to hug my wife. She has put up with a lot from me. I didnt get why she was so pissed at me. I though I was doing pretty good on the sub till the last few month. In my head I though hell... at least I am not doing dope and can take care of them..what more did she want?. I wasnt taken care of noone. Not even myself. I now see what my wife was saying by me not being present or involed in my familys life. she kept calling me a "shell" of a person. I get it now. I hope she can forgive me for how absent I have been.

Sister keeps telling me I am not cured of my addiction. I have to believe her, she has been thru this but I sure feel cured. I am not craving dope or even a cigg. I hope this feeling stays with me. The sitter says it will for a few months at least. She feels that a long term addict needs a full yr not dealing with cravings. she pushes support big time. The way I feel right now I dont want tobe around a bunch of addcts whinning about what dope took away from them. I want to leave this nightmare behind me. I want to live a normal life like it was suppose to be. I will do what she says to do as far as keeping up the support. really out of fear of failing then the need for it. I do want to go back to my home group and share this with them. I know so many stuck on sub thinking that they are not in the midst of thier addiction... Now I am glad that sub turned on me. if it didnt I would still be numb to the world believeing that I was "normal".

I Know many of you'll will say I am full of shit.. thats ok. I would of said the same a yr ago. ALl I can do is share this. Up to you if you want to believe it or not. Iknow when I went on sub I thought HELL YEAH... got my life back. Little did I know just how that was a total lie. I think everything happens for a reason. the sub turning on me, making me so blank in side, not wanting to leave my home, answer my phone and those damn panic attack are a blessing. if it didnt happen that way I dont think I would of been ready for this. But eveything happens in it own time. I hate that I lost so many yrs but that is behind me now.

I remember listening to this guy.. a md in fla talk about suboxone. (Dr Scanland) He made the statment that 2mg of sub deadens 80% of your emotions. When I heard that I though this guy is full of it. Boy... was he right. It is a bit scary for me. I wonder how I am gonna do without the numbing affects of the sub/dope. I mean... how will little things affect me now. things like traffic, rainy day or a fight with my wife. Now I wont have something to lean on to take away the hurt or aggitation. But you know... right now even a good firght with my wife sounds better then being on that posion.

Well.. this turned out to be a very long post or book. LOL. I even have so much more to say but dont want this to be deleted since it is not what the majarity here feels or thinks is the truer term. Its really ashame that the us gov. would keep this a class one. But now I can see why.. It would shut down the meth clinic.. the sub doc's would have to get a real job and it would put too mnay out of work. when you think about how many make a living from working in the rehabs, clinics and how could the US pay for the wars without the dope money? The Dea can kiss my butt. I know back in the early 50's they were aware of this wonderful healing plant. The pharm companies have way too much power in this country. they give the elected monies to campaign and in return they make sure things like Ibogain is not allowed here. I have seen stuff on the net saying they are aware of cures for cancer but that would put too many out of work and the big phama companies would loose too much profit in the "Treatments". uhmmmmmm.. I think I actually had a vision about this now that I think about it. Sister said a lot will come to light as the days pass. Damn, lots has come to light in just hours.

Well, I wish you all health and happiness. if anyone has question just ask. You can PM me or ask here. I got a feeling I am gonna have lots of sleepless nights ahead of me so what else can I do in the middle of the night but get on the net.

Srry for the lenght.... if you have read this far I will be suprized. LOL. it is what it is.

Birdie.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 11, 2011 8:02 am 
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Thanks for the update. I hope you continue to do well.

I also wanted to respond to a couple of things you said. Thus far there are no studies that prove that suboxone deadens any emotions. If you can provide any sources/studies on this subject, please do so. This is a pro-suboxone site, as I'm sure you know and has always been presented as such. Further, we always try to provide accurate information. When one makes blanket statements about what sub does or what someone claims it is ("dope"), we only ask that the information has the proper citations to back up the claim or that the opinion is clearly stated to be just that - an opinion and not presented as fact. Thanks for considering that in the future.

Again, I hope you continue to do well and thanks for sharing your experience with us.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 11, 2011 9:59 am 
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I just happen to have kept this on my lap top. The insert is what I got that was printed off the site of the pod cast. Not sure I did call sub dope and If I did it was a mistake.

I just tried to go on the site of the pod cast but its down for maintance. I didnt know we could post sites.. so I didnt. But before I make a statment again I will post where I got the info from.

Dont think I am totally against sub... It did give me the time away from dope that I needed to change some things. I have met a few folks that I feel needs to stay on it for life.. they tried to get off and end up back shooting dope.. so better sub then dope for sure. It was just my experience that it didnt work for me long enough and the negative outweighed the positive. I know this is not for everyone but I also know I am not alone in this. I just feel that all info should be avail, not just one side of the picture. I sure you feel the same.. I am sure you would not want to paint a perfert picture and delete the negatives about it? One should be aware of the whole picture. Just because this is a pro-sub site dosnt mean that any negative would be sensored? Or... is this site sensoring some information?

Nonetheless... if I referred to sub as dope it was not my intention. It is a very stong opiate but dope to me is what I get off the streets. Well... and Md's when they are players too. lol. But here is where I got this information. Dr Scanland is a well known, respected addiction specialist... just like Dr J. Maybe on different spectrum but that dosnt mean he is wrong, just like Dr J may not be wrong.




http://afflictedandaffected.com/index.p ... :shows2008

Suboxone - Miracle or Menace ??

I am seeing an epidemic down here in south florida with the prescription drug abuse. What I am most concerned about, though, is a medication called Suboxone/Subutex. Suboxone is an opiate that has been found to be a replacement opiate to help wean people off drugs. The problem is that people are now abusing suboxone like crazy. The same pain doctors that are prescribing opiates for pain are advertising that they are also doing detox with suboxone. They give people the oxycontin and then when the people realize they are addicted they keep the money coming in by offering the alternative of suboxone. http://pbod.org/suboxone-detoxification ... ation.html

The problem is that few ever get off suboxone. It is an amazing detox tool to use, but the problem is that if it used for more than three weeks than it becomes harder to detox off than regular opiates (vicodin, etc.). I have done over a thousand opiate detoxes using suboxone and have had great success with it, but have never given it for more than 21 days. I would say that over 90% of doctor's who prescribe suboxone just use it for maintenance and thus no one ever gets off drugs. Furthermore the majority of suboxone dispensers are not psychiatrists or have any experience in addiction medicine. This medication is a cash cow for doctors as it creates a huge supply of patients who come in and pay cash only to continue the suboxone (some have been on it for years). The patient's once they are hooked in are usually seen by only the nurse practioner. I detox people in my office everyday, but have only been able to get 6 people off suboxone maintenance as the pharmacology is so different than other opiates that when taken for months it makes for the most horrific detox (I have spoken to these patient's at length and they are now in recovery and swear they will never take suboxone again because of the detox). I would rather have a patient come in addicted to 20 bags of heroin instead of being on a low dose (2mg daily of suboxone). The other issue is that since suboxone is an opiate the patient can never get into recovery fully as the opiate blocks feelings. A person never gets to experience, "Life on life's terms."

I have not been able to find any publications that discuss what suboxone is really all about. Is this drug truly a miracle or a menace. I realize in time, by what I have witnessed by using this medication with so many patients, that the dangers of this medication will come to the forefront. The amount of prescriptions written for this drug is staggering and the abuse in the United States is reaching huge proportions. The problem is that for now it is looked as "better than the alternative - heroin, oxycontin, etc." I have spoken to agents at the DEA, other addiction psychiatrists, former opiate addicts in recovery, pharmacists, and pharmacologists and for the most part they agree that the current use of suboxone is a "timebomb".

- Dr. Scanlon


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 11, 2011 11:15 am 
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birdie,
Thank you for taking the time to type out your experience. I have been fascinated with Iboga for a long time, and I agree that 1. the government is against using Ibogaine medicinally because it is a hallucinogen, and 2. If it proves to be a cure (or interrupter) of addiction big Pharma will never stand for it.
Nonetheless, I have read, seen and heard enough about it to believe the claims that have been made. I have considered and to continue to consider doing it myself. I do agree the Sub affects me mentally, although it is a huge step away from active addiction. Of course, a doctor who claims that 2mg of Sub supresses 80% of emotions, is out of line, because he is throwing out numbers that can't be provem empirically. But I do see what his point is.

Again, thanks for sharing your story, and I truly hope that this experience results in you overcoming your addiction permanently. Stay vigilant.
Best of luck,
Lilly


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 11, 2011 11:50 am 
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Wow...that was incredible to read. Thank you so much, Birdie, because you have given me a lot of hope. I've been waiting to hear your story. Thanks for including the good and the bad. I'm very skeptical of anything at this point that is touted as perfect all the way around.

I guess that one thing about this site really confuses me. It's pro-Sub, right? Okay. However, then it also wants to provide accurate information, right? Well, what if accurate information doesn't line up with the pro-Sub stance? To be accurate, you cannot really be pro-anything other than accuracy and truth. It's important that we listen to people like Birdie who have been on and off Sub, because it's very hard to do a medical study on emotions. All we are going to have is the anecdotal evidence provided by people who have been in both positions. Does anyone think that a there will be a study done that proves Suboxone changes your emotions? How could they study that? How could they test that medically? Also, who would pay for it? It's not going to happen. There's no proof otherwise, though, so I encourage everyone to keep an open mind. Look, I didn't believe Sub affected my emotions whatsoever until I significantly reduced my dose (to 1 mg). It doesn't make much sense to think Sub doesn't change your feelings, though. It's an opiate, partial agonist or not. It eliminates cravings, so it would have to be a pretty designer drug to eliminate one feeling and leave the others untouched and unaffected.

I don't want to offend anyone either. I really don't think that many people will believe Sub alters them until they go through getting off it themselves (if they do). It's not a strong enough sense of being in an altered state for people to come to that conclusion while you are on it. I also think people have the right to choose to stay on Sub if their addiction was so bad they know no other life and it's just what they need to do. Many times in life, we have to choose between two things and neither or them is perfect. We have to make the best choice with the information we have, and I have zero problem with people choosing long-term Sub if that's the best thing for them. However, here I am eating my previous words, because I feel so different just being on a much lower dosage and it hasn't gone away, though it's closing in on a full month at the same dose.

I think maybe when people talk about Suboxone numbing emotions, the people on Sub feel attacked. I absolutely get that. Maybe we feel like we are being told that taking Sub is wrong. I think that's the wrong way to see it. At least for me, I feel like when you go through something like what Birdie has gone through, you have an obligation to pass on to other people what your experience has been. It's funny to me, because at Here to Help, the Sub makers, they were thrilled to listen to me tell them that my baby was born without NAS. They transferred me to the correct person so they could record the information and told me tell other women to call when/if their babies were born healthy too! I thought that was great, because they were listening to the patients. Of course, I didn't send them medical records. They didn't ask me for them, so that evidence was anecdotal too. Then, when I tried to tell them about the emotions issue, I was shut down immediately. Nobody wanted to hear it, and these people put out the information about Sub.

What Birdie has written is not so Birdie can benefit. He already feels better and is peaceful. It's for someone else who may benefit. There may be someone reading who is staying sober by taking Sub but is kinda holing up in their house and halfway watching T.V. but also halfway just zoning out and doesn't know what is going on. I want that person(s) to realize maybe the Suboxone is causing it, because I've spent so much time doing just that (holing up and zoning out) and I've finally changing back to how I was before. I did try examining everything else in my life, too. I tried antidepressants and moving, even leaving my husband. I tried changing everything else, but it did not work. Thank goodness this is working, since I'd totally given up. Hat, I truly do see where you are coming from, especially because I've been there. As Birdie said, he's been there too, and he didn't believe he was being affected either. He admitted he was wrong, which no one likes to do. Me included!! However, what if you someday decide to taper off Sub (for whatever reason) and you experience this same sort of thing after believing with your whole heart that you wouldn't? What if that happens to you and you are blown out of the water by how different you feel? Just try to put yourself in that place and try to imagine that people are telling you there's no evidence for what you are saying.....

Birdie, I'm so happy for you. You sound great. What you said about seeing you kids playing and what they said....yikes. That's pretty heavy. You do have a lot of living to do and I love that you've been warned that your addiction isn't cured. That's so important. I remember when I was told that I never had to drink again, it took a while for me to understand the meaning behind that cliche (yet another cliche that turns out to be so helpful), but when I did, it was such a load off my back. Birdie, you never have to use again. You never have to waste any more of your life chasing any drug or trying to come off any drug. You have every opportunity ahead of you and so many things to enjoy. The possibilities are endless....Thanks for taking the time to get on here and share your story. The physical experience of it sounds pretty intense, but it also sounds absolutely worth it. I'm fascinated by what you saw. Who was the black woman? It's so interesting....

Do you know when Afflcted and Affected is going to get back online? I love that podcast. It was loaded with information. Dr. Scanlan is pretty incredible, isn't he?

laddertipper

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First you take a drink, then the drink takes a drink, then the drink takes you. ~F. Scott Fitzgerald


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 Post subject: blunted emotions...
PostPosted: Mon Apr 11, 2011 12:42 pm 
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I am really excited to read your experience, Birdie....I know many who are tapering off Sub and struggling big time...and its so great that we can have a place to express our experiences, good and bad, and offer help and support to each other. That is something very unique in this community...and why 'group' therapy can be so helpful....it's hard to feel alone when going through this.

But, we aren't alone and we are here to offer hope to each other. I've recieved a lot of it and I appreciate it.

The thing I wanted to add...is that the idea of not realizing how we are affected by a medication is very powerful. When I was on methadone I was on 50mg for quite a while before they upped me to 75mg (due to stressors, cravings)...at 50mg I think I was doing ok....although there were a lot of physical changes in my life...and an indisious "checking out" that I was doing but not realizing it. When I got to 75mg it got worse...but the fact is it IS insidious. I didn't realize it as I was slowly dying inside, emotionally. When I made the decision to go on Sub, I really have no idea what prompted it at that moment. It just happened. I'd thought about it off and on, but I was terrified of tapering and detoxing off methadone, or even trying to get to 30mg. I don't know why...I think i got complacent and comfortable and i also believe, now that I am away from it, that I liked my little fuzzy methadone world. i'd NEVER have admitted that then...i didn't believe it then, but I see it NOW. Even after 2 days off of methadone (I jumped from 75mg, went cold turkey and started sub 6 days later with minimal difficulty) I could FEEl. Things were clearer, brighter, crisper and I knew I had been "drugged" on methadone. I was pissed. At myself, at methadone, at the clinic for not informing me enough. I was so happy to be off methadone, I went on Sub and I felt great. Clear headed, happy, had emotions, lost weight, worked out, laughed, cried, enjoyed music again. Even not knowing enough about Sub, it was worth making the switch just to get away from the bondage of methadone. For me. now, I've said this before, but methadone did its job for me when I was desperate and needing to stop active addiction. I had had another relapse. I needed to stop the insanity and I couldn't get through another vicodin detox by myself and attempt to get back into a solid recovery. I had way too much stress going on to do that....methadone WAS a good choice for me then. Sub was a good choice for me in November. i'm still glad I did it and I don't regret it.

My fear, as I wrote about a while back, is that I may get to that same place on Sub...that I do not realize I'm dying inside again....that's my fear. Although at 6mg I believe I'm doing ok...I love music, work out, eat well, have a life...but I DO still have moments after dosing that i could easily sit back down and zone out some. not as much as on methadone, not by far....but the potential is there and i recognize it.

But like Birdie said, and ladder, too, we might not realize how much we ARE missing out. Who knows? I won't know until I taper down more and get off of Sub if my life would be significantly different off of Sub. I am afraid that i'll get stuck...sure....but I also know Sub has worked for me and helped me get to a better recovery place. When on methadone I was not doing what I needed to do in my recovery. I was way too emotion-less and lazy. I KNOW that was methadone because I know ME. I'm someone who likes to do stuff and I have a lot of interests and i gave them all up on methadone. Now, that hasn't happened on Sub...I've changed for the better on Sub...but I still know that there is more I am capable of...and I'm not just blaming sub. There are other factors involved..the point is just that it can in an insidious process and it can creep up on us and before we know it and realize it we've changed...

I'm interested in hearing more about Ibogaine experiences....It's exciting...it's also scary. but I also don't know enough about it.

So, hopefully, Birdie and others who have had the Ibogaine experience, you will write more about how life is now for you....

Thanks.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 11, 2011 1:49 pm 
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Hi 'tripper, I wasn't sure if your reply was in part to what I wrote so I guess i just want to clarify where I'm at. I actually DO believe Sub is blunting my emotions to some extent. It's like the way China referred to methadone, it's "an insidious checking out". I was only objecting to Dr. Scanlon putting numbers on it, because on his scale I'm 480% emtionless! This isn't to say that this type of thing couldn't be studied. I mean, they really can't measure depression numerically either, but are able to establish that anti-depressants work. The studies rely on self-reporting, and I think the same thing could be done for Sub patients, testing people on and then off Sub, and maybe re-test people a year off of Sub.

So it sounds like Here to Help is only willing to document positive experiences? They told you to have other new moms with positve outcomes to call, but not those with negative outcomes? I guess they're in the business of selling Sub (as it's sponsored by RB), but it still seems wrong.

We don't have a commercial interest here, though. We can be a pro-Sub site and still be pro-truth.

I'm sorry if I'm getting too far off topic. This is a really interesting thread, and I hope others who have had Ibogaine experiences will post. I'm also anxious for updates from those who have already been through it and have long term information.
Thanks,
Lilly


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 11, 2011 4:31 pm 
Ya i dont need a study to show me sub dulled my emotion. I have sober life right before the sub to compare it to.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 11, 2011 9:16 pm 
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as someone said before ,"this is a pro sub site"..this is a pro sobriety site..whether it be trippin on ibogaine LOL( BTW you can buy the bark in head shops all thru Canada),sub, meth, standing upside down on your head pukin in a bucket, whatever. Some of you read waaay too much into this shit. someone asked, "what did the black girl do?",,common...I know!!, ibogaine is the cure all and this is one big conspiracy..it's those damn pharmas and the government! give me a break...stay sober any way you wish but I had to throw some cold water on this thread so some dont hop on the nxt flight to mexico after reading this drivel.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 11, 2011 9:58 pm 
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obviously this ibogaine talk has got a bad taste in my mouth since day 1. sorry about the drivel comment,,,I don't ever see this being used /approved in the us largly due to the hallucinigenic(sp) factor. heck, they are having a tough time with marijuana. this ibogaine will never be legal in our lifetime. Therefor, I don'tknow how much testing will go into this..it would be cool if they could synthicize(im dyslexic btw) a drug and that obtained some of the usefull detox properties contained in ibogaine? I don't know? but, some stuff that was said rubbed me the wrong way..I do have a fairly open mind and whatever works. glad yer sober! I guess I'm just sober enough :lol:


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 12, 2011 12:09 pm 
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A blog post or a detox site that's making money on people who have trouble tapering off sub is NOT empirical evidence, so I still say, please refrain from citing numbers which cannot be backed up by citations/studies. That's all I'm saying.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 12, 2011 3:33 pm 
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obviouly you dont know that much about ibogaine Indigo... there have been studies.. this MD from the states Dr Nash had a clinic outside the usa, I think St Kitts. Treated many folks and all with mich success. The USA did start up the studies and actaully the Top person at the time of the Fda actually sent a memo to the Nih to pls continue the studies due to the promising results.. But all funding was pulled so Dr Nash left the country to do it on her own. So... poop on this thread all you want. It wont hurt me one bit. I feel great today, I know have a choice on what my life will be like. Dont care how you feel about it. So since your not interested in Iboga for a mode of treatment for you then great. I can say that I dont think it is for everyone. It was the best choice I made for me.

What I would love to see is a study following the folks who did chose this mode of treatment. How many remain clean after 6mo, one yr, two yrs and so forth. I dont see this happening here but its leagal in the UK, Mexico, Canada, Japan, China. So hopefully someone will do a study. I think the problem is who cares about addicts. After all the world sees us as low life scum. Not worth the efford. Plus how would someone get rich? That is the name of the game after all is to get rich. The person who treated me is a RN. I am sure she could make much more money working in a hospital then doing this for a living. She is older and at the end of her career (her words, not mind) so she dosnt need that much to live. I think she said her house is paid for.. she drives a 11 yr old car (though I loved the car) and she has no kids. So she can do what she pleases. She is also a addict in recovery. she has been on Meth and sub. She is very worldly.. I will always be greatful for her.

She did say to pass it on, let those who are suffering know there is help out there. This I will do very willingly. I know that Capt did try to pass it on here but did get banned for his wording. I may end up being banned too because though there was a place in my life for the need of sub.. I am so happy to have it behind me. I am so SHOCKED on how I feel today. I am tired but man.. I dont remember ever feeling so alive. I still am not sleeping.. I was up at 2am and I went into my kids room. I sat on the floor and just watched her sleep. This actually brought tears to my eyes. Her beautiful face looking so calm and peaceful. I could see she was dreaming.. a smile would come on her face and she was pointing her fingers like as if she was scolding her younger sib. LIfe is beautiful.

For me... I know that my emotions were dulled. Extremely so. NO ONE could of told this to me 3 mo ago. NO one. I am not attacking those that are on sub by saying this at all. I know you wont believe me. How could you. I do remember thinkig I was so much more alert being on sub.. well now I do know the difference. So pls dont take it as a scolding.. hell, I dont know you and dont know your stories. I just wanted to share this ... actually I feel like climbing the biggest mountin and screaming it to the world.

If I do get banned as Capt did.... I now have others address so you all will know. I know that Capt did not get the chance to say anything to others. No annoucment was stated and it looked like he just dissappeared. He felt bad for this but figure the folks here know that this is how the forum operates.

I still am not able to talk about the other visions I had... I cry even mentioning that thier were other visions.

One thing. When I would use the word hallucgens to the provider she kept correcting me and calling it "dream state". It actually annoyed me. Now I know why she kept correcting me. they are not hallucination.. Not like acid or even shrooms. it was a dream state. Just like as if I was sleeping and dreaming. She tried to explain this to me but then just said.. "you;ll see what I mean". well, she was right. I do understand now. I dont know how to put it into words for you to understand it. when I talk to her tonight.(we have call set up with my wife and her) I will ask again for her to explain it and then will try to explain it to you all.


Did I say btw just how beautiful life is today?


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