unfortunately ibogaine is still in such a murky grey area it's hard to say really. i'm not trying to get defensive or flame or whatever... but there are certain risks one takes when using something like ibogaine... here is a link that shows fatalities related to ibogaine http://www.myeboga.com/fatalities.html. now there could have been other circumstances, sure, but my primary concern with ibogaine, is not to say that it's not a novel concept at rapidly interrupting addiction, it just needs a lot more research. i fried my laptop or i'd have a lot more links to studies to post but from what i've garnered from my extensive reading is that ibogaine does provide a reset. and during this period, which may be only 30-60 days depending on what studies you're getting your data from, intensive counseling and rehabilitative measures need to be taken. one cannot take ibogaine and think it's a one off get out of jail free card. i really hope more research goes into it. it's sad that a clandestine community has to exist and some addicts may be taken advantage of because of this. if i could go to a legit medical clinic, be administered ibogaine under an MD/DO/what have you, and then immediately go into an intensive therapy protocol, i'd sure give it a try. i guess what i'm saying here ibogahelp, is i'm not knocking it, i'm just saying that at this point there's not enough research. there still is a high rate of recidivism...but this can be true of any type of rehab. it is sad that the medical community does not embrace drugs such as ibogaine, lsd-25, mdma for the therapeutic uses. hell, you can go trip on DXM and get fucked up on belladonna alkaloids that are in cold preparations... anyway, there's an article, i'll try and find the exact citation that was a metastudy particularly of the clandestine treatment culture and clinics operating in europe and how that typically ended up with people returning to opioid within the time frame i stated.. we can talk stats all day. i just want buyer to beware and realize, that you don't just trip and automatically be free from addiction. you still have to make a life change and commitment and during that period of remission, while the addict is perceptive and open to treatment, get the psychological treatment and psychosocial support necessary to maintain a drug free life.

got your mess- yesterday birdie. thanks ya " maybe i am sinking deeper and deeper in meds or drugs , as you called".
but i don't have a ibogaine person like you do. glad that at least you made it. how can some one get treatment from iboga "people". its starting to sound kind'a funny . some of the feedback i get from the iboga stuff sounds a little pushing and i don't know .( fulldeck)

i just read this whole thread took about 2 hrs lol... very interesting stuff...

Ibogaine may work for some .. cheers if you enjoy tripping out ur mind for 5k(some sarcasm )

Everyone has a different story and journey in life with addiction..

The one thing ive learned about my addiction is it really has nothing to with "drugs"... It has more to do with my life.. Kinda hard to explain i dont really feel like getting into it.. its almost 3am here

Honestly, I felt the the same off suboxone then i did on Suboxone.. i was off suboxone once for 15 months straight..

I've tried everything probably except ibogaine.. But Ill bet you the chance of staying clean long term from "ibogaine" is the same as any other "method" of traditional treatment..

Just remember peeps; just because something has worked for you; dont mean its gonna work for EVERYONE..

We all have our own journey in life..

Good night

Well hello folks,
I have been clean now for 5 mo and really loving life. I now see what sister was talking about ibogaine not being the cure. Not that I am in active addiction but I still have the personality if a active addict at times. It's my character and that is what I am working on now.
I have stayed in touch with my provider and she has been just grand and generous with her time. I think she just opened a house in Mexico to help those in need but can't pay the five grand the clinics want. What's really painful for me to see is that even in the Iboga community there are folks like indigo...just shit in everything. Like this guy Jeff trashing all other providers ,saying how dangerous they are and only he knows how to do a tx. I called him a recently just to see what he would say about my provider... He outright lied and said she has no idea what she is doing!!!! Well, not a perfect world and even providers can be shits. I sorta don't want to tell sister what he saying... Not sure she would care. I use to read mindvox and the slandering there makes me think of the slandering here. Lol, maybe same folks.

On a good note, I am doing great. Still have one of two boosters that I was sent home with and thinking about planning to take it. Mainly for the depression that is chasing my butt. My provider says it's time also. Other then that damn depression on my tail I am doing great. I still am in therapy and do attention a meeting weekly, I am working the steps witch I find very difficult. My sponsor is not avail when I need him on the norm but sister is always been avail by email and phone at times. Life w/o dope can be hard..not as hard as with the dope but I really hate emotional pain...with dope ya just don't have to deal. Clean, there is no running away. I still believe that it was the ibogaine that saved my life...made it possible for me to get where I am today.
Just thought I would drop in....say hi and share that yup, Still Clean!

Got to say, blows me away more don't use ibogaine....I guess some feel that we need to suffer to get clean. My butt suffered enough....
Will try and check back. Later.".. I am in Mexico with the kids and wife....need to take kids to beach. Then site seeing ....cheap vaca.

i would worry a little on something long term boosting my brain. this plant iboga? continue's to flow through my mind? birdie no one is pushing me'. i just feel that from the ibogaine thing. cire113 sounds about right. i have been looking up on iboga a lot. and it worry's me a little' about how my med doc explain'd it. how much longer do you have these flood dose, before your free from w/d or maybe rela-.

john boy,

I don't understand the question? I only had one flood dose and I didn't have any wd from about 45 min after I took my first test dose. I did have sneezing that kicked in about day 4 or so but that was it for me. From what I understand that Ibogaine breaks down by the liver into nor-ibogaine and stores in fatty tissue. Thats why no cravings for a time. I have not had craving one and it been 5 mo. I do still battle with depression but not like I did before my tx. So I hope this answered your question.

My thoughts are that if your not sure this is your mode of treatment then it may not be. I had no fear and knew it was right for me. We are all different and had different life experiences. What works for me may not another... though Sister said to me once on phone that the day she ever comes across a person that ibogaine did not take away the horrible wd then she walks away from it completely. Now having wds and craving are different from desire to get clean. If sub works for you then sub works for you. Why fix something not broken?

Personally, my emotions were dulled from active using. I've been on Sub over two years and have never felt more alive. So not everyone thinks it dulls emotion. I've also been on every antidepressant on the market, and some of them really dull your emotions. But it is all about your personal cost-to-benefit ratio. If Sub works for you, great; if not, get off of it. It's just another tool available to deal with addiction. It is neither good nor bad. And I was put in the hospital for 2 weeks and they wouldn't give me my Sub, so I had to deal with the withdrawal. I take 16 mg, and the withdrawal was peanuts compared to a full agonist. Very mild. I had heard of all the horror stories and expected worse. Now I'm not worried about going off of it one day for good. So, everyone's mileage varies.

The ibogaine sounds fascinating, but I always had bad trips from acid so I would never take that chance. But if it truly works for some, more power to them.

James

_________________
"Never tease a weasel/The weasel will not like it/ And teasing isn’t nice!”

my emotions were fine on suboxone". until a cert'n phsyic med fuck'ed it up.

Using an altered state of mind to get over addiction is not a new concept. Bill W (the dude who started AA) reached a spiritual point of surrender, the point where he genuinely lost the desire to keep drinking, while in the intense state of delerium tremens. Pretty much anyone I've known who has described their 'surrender' was experiencing an incredibly intense state of mind at the time, the kind that has the potential to leave a long lasting impression, or 'rewire' one's brain.

It's almost as if an extreme state of mind is necessary in order to rewire the brain out of the destructive cycles of thinking we get ourselves into.

Most people reach this point through the pain of their addiction - ie hardened men breaking down into tears about the state of their life in a jail cell, or seeing a sign from God or the Mother Mary while being resuscitated from a heroin overdose.

While it's extremely ironic that a hallucinogen could very well induce such a state of surrender, I'm not surprised it's possible. My brain was totally rewired by my years of taking LSD and mushrooms, and I'd say definitely to my detriment. If hallucinogens have that capability, who's to say that one, by chance, can't 'rewire the brain' to positive effect?

Ibogaine is also really interesting with opiates in that it has some similar qualities to naltrexone in terms of rapid detox. It seems that people who have gone through ibogaine therapy come out in a similar state to those who have undergone a rapid detox, especially given their tolerance to opiates is 'reset'. However, Ibogaine appears to not induce the extremely painful rapid detox symptoms, or it effectively masks them behind its hallucinogenic effect. Is the brain perfectly healed though? I doubt it, given most people still relapse after Ibogaine.

Anyone who has taken LSD knows that the extreme states of mind hallucinogens induce leave a lasting impression. I'd personally say that they can easily rewire your brain. Why then can't one of these drugs actually have positive therapeutic effect?

It is no miracle cure though. The average amount of time a person stays clean on Ibogaine is 6 months, and the guys I know who do it recommend 6 month "boosters" for the first couple of years (maybe they need the $ ) . Because of this, I still believe that nothing's more effective than a genuine state of surrender - the kind where you're willing to refuse morphine even on your death bed.

Well put teajerker!!

Can rapid detox work for long term sub users? what does it include? I think the difference between Iboga and rapid detox is that Iboga apparently takes away withdrawals and PAWS whereas rapid detox just eliminates sub from your mind and doesnt take all the withdrawals or paws? what would be a better option Ibogaine or Rapid Detox?

Also those who relapse after Ibogaine do so because of boredom and not paws or depression? can Ibogaine really take away withdrawals of a 5 or 6 year sub users? I hear paws come back or start after few months post-Iboga or Ibogaine? am a bit confused and dont know what to do.

In my situation Ive been taking sub for almost 6 years now and to be realistic no matter how slow I wean I am bound to have some long lasting withdrawals and PAWS..So either I can take 0.2 Subutex every 4 or 5 days to skip so to eliminate as much as half life as possible or do Ibogaine..

INDIGOCHILD-
If you dont like this thread then stop posting on it.. you talk about people should be banned but in all reality YOU should be banned, you have broke just about every single rule there is for posting in this forum repeatedly. It's not fair that people should have to read your posts, obviously you are only here to argue and disagree with people. I also dont see what right you have to put "Hat- Do not delete or move this post".. who are you?? The mods are here to make sure that we as members can discuss things and help each other peacefully & to make sure we dont have to see the type of things you continuously post. Why do you feel that you have the right to tell them not to touch your posts?? Taking low blows about people spelling wrong was a funny thing i read in your post because if you look back in your posts you spelled MANY things wrong!! Someone came on the forum (i guess you had posted a link from their site to use as evidence to discredit ibogaine) and even asked you politely not to use their information and also clearly stated they were all for ibogaine and any other treatment one opted to use so the proof you tried to post back fired in your face.I cannot speak for others but I dont come here to read the type of posts you are writing and if you are asked to refrain from the subject you are commenting on by many people then you should. Your input should not have to be put up with and we as members trying to discuss something should not have to argue or defend ourselves to you. I in no way meant this to be rude but we just simply should not have to put up with this stuff especially since the rules clearly state to refrain from this behavior and the mods have asked you to refrain from it. Im sorry if I offended you in any way but this is my opinion.

_________________
♥Amanda♥

*Battles are fought everyday, some you win & some you lose..Addiction is a war & every second you're still alive you're winning that war..*

sodone -

I appreciate that you want to stand up for the moderators and other members on the forum, and I appreciate that you want to stand up for what you think is right.

That said, the drama on this thread between Indigochild and me and whoever else happened six months ago.

Indigochild hasn't posted anything on this thread since May. The issue was dealt with by the moderators at that time and was resolved.

So I don't really understand why you are posting now telling Indigochild to stop posting to this thread. There's really no reason and I (and the other mods I'm sure) don't really want to see this drama get all stirred up again.

If you have something to add to the discussion about Ibogaine, please feel free to contribute that here. If you see some kind of problematic post on a current thread, please feel free to notify a moderator. It is also ok to politely say something if you read something that you disagree with, but I find that the forum runs better if we don't all get into criticizing one another's spelling and grammar and if we refrain from telling each other off for whatever reason.

Again, thank you for looking out for the well-being of the forum. I'm glad you're here and please know that I'm available to help if needed.

_________________
You can't stop the waves, but you can learn to surf.

-Jack Kornfield

It's an iboga flashback.

^^^ You are asserting quite a few things in your posts in this thread... Hopefully YOU are going to 'do the right thing' and let all who read here know that YOU are NOT a MD... ^^^

As for the Ibogaine...

Just had a local Physician here lose his DEA license and Medical Licenseabout 3 months ago because one of his patients was caught on the border trying to smuggle Ibogaine back into the country and when questioned... stated that this physician encouraged him to get/use this "miracle cure." (or so the story goes)

Unfortunately... the guy had 100 Bupe patients and a waiting list of 40 when this happened so they were "left in the lurch."
My clinic picked up 22 of his former patients.

can i be one of your patients? i will be a very good one!! i was thinking about ibogain,
but then , i see you as the kind of doctor that i may give some help too' and i have a doc
LOVE/JOY here at home you too could build a better practice with P.S. i have most of my
doctor'n in watching T.V.

I am unfortunately back on sub- but it is my own inability to cope, and no one, or nothing else responsible.

In 2010 I was ill from 4 years of suboxone- semi low doses- 4-6mgs/day. I thought I would die I was so tired. No matter which way I took sub 1/day, 2/day 3/day- felt horrible in the a.m, once the sub ling dose, felt a bit better, but just exhausted.
Then!!! I had a brilliant idea! If I am going to be on maintenance treatment...might as well go with a full agonist..right?
So I signed up at the clinic in Pee-rine (those of you that know South Miami). I felt a little the first day, felt better, and then
about a week or so later started feeling even sicker and could barely get to my car in the am to get to the clinic.
Basically I was screwed. I did not want to live anymore. I knew that in order to get back on sub, I would have to go into Methadone withdrawal before taking a dose.. at least a couple of weeks. I did not want precip withdrawal. I just gave up.
I could not go back to that clinic. I had only been on the 'done for a month. I first decided to go through the w/d, and go back on sub.. but then.. I wanted out of everything. Most of my life had been opiate free. I did it. 2 weeks into w/d I contacted a lady that does underground- a nurse and very prof. and serious. Required EKG and blood prior to Ibogaine. By the time I would take the Ibogaine I would be 3 weeks off of the Methadone, and 1month 3 weeks off of Methadone- You cannot get Ibogaine tx until off sub for approx 3-4weeks.
For those of you that said "enjoy the trip!". Think about that a little. If you are a true opiate addict in w/d the last thing you want to do is to trip. At least all junkies I know shudder at the thought. I experimented with various halucinogens when I was young, but nothing for like 25-28yrs. I was terrified.
Let me tell you something little brothers and sisters- Ibogaine tx is not for the faint of heart and no fun way to detox. Its purpose is primarily the metabolite Nor-Ibogaine that has affinity for mu. The Ibogaine itself has an affinity for everything.
You have to be off of any SSRIs(anti dep) or really any med other than a benzo, or you risk problems. This lady was very serious- as I said.
The trip part initially was interesting.. with some visuals... but wham! and not a fun wham. Some have visions etc. I had my whole life reviewed in this FF type of way with a horrible buzzing sound. Auditory distortion and halucination is crazy- I did not like any of it. Even though I did not like it- it was not like freaking out on LSD. In a strange sort of way you have control. You are also asleep- read up on the particulars-v.interesting. Did I feel I was taking a risk? Sort of- but as I said
I had total confidence in the provider- paramount. The next day I felt horrible. Not withdrawal horrible but like a horrible hangover. Each day got better. Within 3 days I was ready to fly back to MIA. I was still v. tired.
Results: Yes it did provide that window. I was still tired but had no desire to use. A month later I was walking and riding my bike. And in 3 weeks I was sailing once again. Racing Lazers.
It did work for me. That once. I slowed down on my meetings... got out of any sort of spiritual routine I was in... and something happened with a girl/woman. That was it. That is how serious changing your life after you stop is. I did not develop any good coping methods. On sub? I did not bother b/c I was numbed.
I have been caring for my mother as well, and about that time of the slip she began going downhill. She was very old.
I did not stay on regular opiates long- went back on sub because I needed opiate stability. I had to take care of things
and could not go through craving once having used again.
Ibogaine gives about a 2 month window. For me a bit more. Take advantage of this and get a plan in place. Purpose and plan and hope- otherwise you are flirting with going back.
Now? The honeymoon phase of sub is over and I am feeling sickish again. I want to stop but each time I cut I feel the terror of w/d come on.. it sucks.
Now I am scared to do Ibogaine again.

_________________
Think before

gaulois - first off, thanks for sharing your experience with us. You've been through quite a lot. You are determined, I'll give you that!

It seems as though you are back at square one though, does it not? What does of sub are you on? How often are you dosing? Maybe we can help you to dose-stablize in such a way that you'll feel better on it this time. Are you in therapy of any kind? Or addiction counseling? Please consider doing one of those things. Recovery/remission is a time for change and personal growth. Without us being able to change who we had become in active addiction, we'll never be able to pull out of it and STAY OUT OF IT. I firmly believe that. And if we can't do that, what chance do we have of getting off suboxone successfully? By successfully, I mean staying off it and not relapsing.

Think about what needs to change between then (active use) and now. Has anything changed? What still needs to? Sometimes when people enter remission, they just don't know what to do w/ themselves. That leads to them being sort of "frozen" and isolated. Could this be happening to you? Just an idea I thought I'd throw out there. After living with opiates and numbing ourselves for so long, and then becoming cold sober, the world can become a very scary place all of a sudden.

Like I said, maybe we can try to help you get your dose to where you aren't feeling so poorly (assuming your doctor will allow you to play with your dose).

_________________
-As I have grown older, I've learned that pleasing everyone is impossible, but pissing everyone off is a piece of cake.

-I'm only responsible for what I say, not for what you understand.

If you're expecting it to heal your brain it does. I've heard "miraculous" stories of Ibogaine, but the fact remains that ibogaine doesn't "reset" your opioid receptors and one is still in protracted withdrawal for up to 18 months or more, even after the ibogaine "experience". It is not a cure-all and there is virtually no scientific evidence to support it's "miraculous" power.

Not to say that it is completely the placebo effect, however. Is it a miracle-drug? No. Show me a drug with no side-effects and I'll show you a drug with no benefits.



KeefSom