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 Post subject: No energy, feeling dead
PostPosted: Tue Jun 27, 2017 12:31 am 
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My daughter just got on Suboxone 2 weeks ago to get off heroin. The doctor gave her a dose of 2 8mg pills a day. She says she has no energy and just wants to lay in bed all day. She ended up doing heroin to satisfy her energy craving. Her sub doc told her if she has another bad UA then she was off the program. Anyway, my boyfriend takes subs also and said she might need a higher dose, and my sister & nephew (also on subs) said that she is taking to much & that is why she feels that way.

I don't know much about it but I would imagine your body would have to take some time to adjust to the subs after being on heroin. Any advice or input?

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 27, 2017 2:02 am 
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Welcome to the forum - Yes, there will be an adjustment phase that your daughter will go through. We all experience it to some degree, some more than others. To my knowledge, 16mg's is a decent amount. It should be very effective at controlling your daughter's cravings while keeping withdrawal symptoms at bay. But it will take some time.

I can tell you from experience that coming off opiates, especially heroin, is not easy and you should keep in mind it's not only about keeping WD at bay. We do things as addicts that we might be ashamed of. We are different people when we are high. So keep in mind that while her body chemistry is changing to accommodate the buprenorphine, she will need therapy of some kind, preferably with an addiction specialist. She will experience a flood of emotions that may range from relief and optimism, to guilt, shame and even remorse. It really can be different from person to person.

It took me over a month to dial in the dosage that I eventually stayed at. I'm also taking 16mg's a day. At first I felt relieved and although I had a bump up in mood I did feel an overwhelming lack of energy that lasted for a few weeks. This is where a structured environment can come in handy. If you can, try to encourage her to get on a schedule for sleeping and regular healthy meals. For me, laying in bed all day is the enemy. Boredom is the breeding ground for all kinds of negative thoughts and habits.

Keep her engaged in social activities and include her in discussions. If she is displaying signs of depression or anxiety, I would let her try and work through some of it on her own at first. There were a lot of things I needed to process at the beginning of my treatment and it helped me to have a little space... but not too much. It can be a slippery slope trying to find the right balance. Just realize that heroin has profound affects on the mind and body.

Controlling cravings is one of the most important aspects of Suboxone treatment. Once she finds a dosage that eliminates them with the least amount of side effects, the real work can begin. Until then though, I wouldn't be too focused on the amount. A responsible doctor should be able to advise her on that. She will need all of the resources that you can provide. Addiction can be a deadly disease and it's not just about a person's willpower... it goes much deeper than just that. So please, try to find a good counselor to work with, it will make all the difference.

Would you be willing to share a little more information about her with us? What is she like and how old is she?? How long has she been using and how much if you know? What about her personality? Does she suffer from any form of mental illness such as depression? What about her passions? What does she enjoy? It's important to remind ourselves why would should live sober lives. The interests and hobbies, art and music, best friends and potential partners. Anything that connects us with other people. There is so much to gain when giving up drugs, there really is.

I'm glad you joined and hopefully you will find some answers that will help you and her. And keep in mind that you need to be healthy, too. It can be a lot of work worrying about and loving an addict that is out of control. I encourage you to do some self care for 'Mom'. I'm sure you deserve it.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 27, 2017 8:55 am 
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So many potential factors going on. Heroin addiction, like any other opioid addiction, can be mild to very extreme. The major difference with heroin is the route of administration is mostly, but not always, IV. This coupled with the impurities and cutting agents can do shocking things to the body, things you don't find so much with pharmaceutical abuse.

It can take a while for the body to recover from the ravages of heroin abuse.

On the other end of the spectrum, if her heroin addiction was really mild, 16mg of Suboxone could be too much, and she might be experiencing drowsiness from the Sub.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 27, 2017 9:12 am 
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I'm really not sure how much she was doing on a daily basis, all I know is that she was doing it. She said it was to cope & get through the day....typical. She was crying the other day when she told me that when she started she never wanted to get addicted, she was just doing it recreationally, and that she never wanted to become an addict and now here she was, someone she never thought she would be. I told her that I was here to help her in any way that I could. She has a two year old son that has lived with me since he was born. She wasn't doing heroin then, only smoking pot, which she quit so she could breast feed. That didn't last long though, only about a month. She suffers from depression & social anxiety. She was seeing a psychologist for a while but she didn't like the suggestions they gave her to try and help with her issues because they were not "drugs to get her high" so she stopped going. The father of the baby left her when she was three months pregnant and never had anything to do with the baby and then last year he shot himself. The boy she is dating now for the last year maybe is the one who got her started on heroin. He got arrested and is now going through diversion, the diversion officer is making him do the sub clinic (which he wants to do anyway) and they told her that she needed to do it with him if he was going to have any chance of staying sober. They are now living with me, I made an apartment downstairs in my home for them and the pay 100/wk. I have guardianship of her son, but I try to give her some responsibilities taking care of him also. She just got a job about a month ago house cleaning and is doing very well, but her boss doesn't know about her addiction so when she is sick she cant really explain it to her. I told her that it is better for her to pick herself up and go and she will feel better in a while, not to just lay around because that will make it worse. She needs to focus on the light at the end of the tunnel...her son & her freedom. She is normally a very happy, active, friendly person. She loves to go hiking, travel, play with her son, play outdoor games, snowboard in the winter...but since heroin took over she has done none of that. I really miss my daughter, my friend. I do not, nor have I ever done any kind of drugs. I have two sisters that have both been through the heroin addiction & recovery process so I know a little about it and try to help her as much as I can. I don't want her to give up...I know she is struggling right now and feels like she cant do it. Plus the cost of the doctor/subs takes most of her money so she cant save for her own place and that discourages her also.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 27, 2017 9:15 am 
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TeeJay,
She was snorting the heroin, no needles. and yes, that's what I was thinking also...that 16mg was too much for her. I tried to tell her that, and that she should try to take less, but she doesn't listen to me. I will try to call & talk to her doctor about it because if she hears it from him then maybe she will listen. Thanks for your input.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 27, 2017 10:59 am 
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It can take time to get used to a certain dose of buprenorphine, but it's very important that she takes enough so that her opiate receptors are completely covered.

Also, most people who start on buprenorphine are incredibly relieved and happy that they are no longer craving their drug of choice. It could be that your daughter is not truly mentally ready to give up her drug. Buprenorphine will still help by blocking any other opiates she might want to still take, but it is not responsible for her mindset. If she is depressed, she will have to deal with that. If she is not wanting to be in recovery, that will not change because she takes this medication.

I hope she can turn it around soon.

Amy

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 27, 2017 12:06 pm 
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I agree with Amy and that's actually what I was thinking to myself as I was reading ur first post. Was ur daughter truly ready to start buprenorphine and be done with the heroin? Is the reason she chose to start this treatment because of the boyfriend? Even if that's why, she still can be successful as long as she stays away from opiates completely. Since she's already used H since starting her treatment, that hints to her still having those old connections to that world. She has to change people, places and things. She can't be hanging around any of the ppl she used to in active addiction. If ur daughter fails one more UA she'll get discharged. I hope that doesn't happen.

The feeling sleepy can be a side effect of buprenorphine until u adjust. There is a way to counteract that sleepy feeling though that worked for me, don't sit around or lay around, if u get up and move or do something active (even cleaning the house) that tired feeling will go away. It's a tired feeling that can be shook off quick.... but if u lay down after dosing it's sleepy town. Just have her try to stay more active like running with her little one, that'll sure get her energy going.

Hopefully ur daughter is also seeing an addiction counselor or some type of counseling. That's a big part of buprenorphine treatment. Buprenorphine isn't magic, if someone isn't willing to change or still stuck in their old using mindset, they will relapse. I've seen ppl with all the best opportunities in the world and their buprenorphine treatment is paid for, and because they weren't ready to change they didn't. Cravings are very powerful. Cravings made a lot of us do things we'd never do normally. Suboxone removes those cravings and gives us a shot at living again. But the ppl who aren't ready to stop yet, that lifestyle calls them bk and that's where they have to fight. I hope ur daughter is ready to fight for recovery.

I'm sorry I typed a book lol. I'll just tell u one last thing. When I was using, I was sitting at the kitchen table with my mother. My mother started crying and she said 'I miss the old Jennifer. I'll never see her again.' I said mom I'm right here and she said not the old Jennifer. I knew she was right, I was nothing like I used to be. BUT now, she'll tell u, after this treatment, I am her old Jennifer again. I'm living life again, and ur daughter can too. U are very supportive and she's very lucky to have u on her side!!

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 27, 2017 8:38 pm 
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Hi MomofAddict and welcome to the forum. You will get lots of caring people giving you good information here. I would agree with everything everyone has said so far, and not sure I have much to add since previous posters have more experience than me, but I thought I could sum up a few things that could be going on:

1) 16 mg is a typical maintenance dose to be on. She may still be adjusting from being off heroin, being on Suboxone or both.

2) I'm not sure an increase in dose would help and may make side effects worse but she could ask her doctor about it.

3) I'm not sure a decrease in her dose would help because her cravings may not be covered for the entire day at doses below 16 mg. Most likely her body will eventually adjust to the side effects, lessening the fatigue.

4) Totally agree with Jenn- I have found Suboxone to be strange in that if I sit down shortly after dosing I tend to doze off a little. However, if I am physically doing things I find myself with more energy and am more productive than normal.

5) When reading your post I got the same feeling that Amy and Jenn, mentioned, that your daughter may not be ready for recovery yet.
That shouldn't stop her from trying, but no medication can completely change your daughter's behaviors, coping skills, and desire to live a life free of active addiction. She has to decide that she wants to change and Suboxone can help.

6) It sounds like she has tried to use substances (at least pot and heroin) not only to get high but also to self medicate for depression and anxiety. Even though she showed no interest in the past it seems like she may really benefit from a depression/anxiety medication.

7) Counseling-would be helpful if she was able to learn coping skills for addiction, anxiety, depression

8) It sounds incredibly stressful to be the parent of an addict and trying so hard to help her get help. I Hope that you are able to take care of yourself. If you are not in counseling it may be beneficial for you to have that support as well. And you always have this forum!
All the best!

Disclaimer- I am not a doctor and all recommendations are based on opinion and experience only. Please consult your doctor before making any medication changes, of course!

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 28, 2017 1:20 am 
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Momofaddict wrote:
I have two sisters that have both been through the heroin addiction & recovery process so I know a little about it and try to help her as much as I can. I don't want her to give up...I know she is struggling right now and feels like she cant do it.


If you have two sisters that have been through addiction and recovery, they could potentially be very valuable cheerleaders and advocates for your daughter (their niece). I don't know what kind of relationship you have with them or if you even talk to them, but do you think they would have something to offer in terms of support and experience? As horrible as addiction is, it's also an opportunity for your family to come together for a common purpose. Kind of a "all hands on deck" type of situation. Although I can understand your daughter's desire to keep it among immediate family members. But it is a thought.

In terms of therapy, I'm involved with Cognitive Behavioral Therapy or CBT right now and I find it highly effective. I'm learning how my thoughts affect my moods, and how my moods affect my actions. I would suggest you look into that. Also, if you have a little time to read a short article, I really think this could be of use. It's about Contingency Management or CM and it could be a valuable component of your daughter's recovery while she's living at home with you. Please, take the time to read this: http://drugabuse.com/library/contingency-management/

For those of you who have never heard of this before, I'll just insert a quote since I have a difficult time explaining it right.

"Contingency management works under the belief that substance use is influenced heavily by social, environmental, and biological factors. On a number of levels, substance use creates a rewarding experience for the user. The experienced high or excitement surrounding the use outweighs all else. This is illustrated by continued desire to use in the face of harm and negative consequences that transpire as a result.

Someone entering recovery must choose to move away from substance use. Unfortunately, those new to recovery may have to face strained relationships, poor financial situations, and ailing mental and physical health resulting from the substance abuse. This new situation is not rewarding and will be seen as a punishment for sobriety.

People in recovery that enter a CM substance use program will have the opportunity to be rewarded for desirable behaviors. If they attend treatment, maintain expectations of the program, and avoid unwanted behaviors, the chances of rewards grow. Ideally, the reinforcement gained from the CM program will equal or outweigh the perceived reward associated with drug use."

I have seen this work first hand both in an addicted teenager and a defiant middle school student. It would at least be worth your time to look at it. I admire your willingness to see that she gets the help she needs.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 28, 2017 9:03 pm 
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Thanks for posting that information OpenMind. That sounds like it could be helpful for certain groups of people. It is important to remember the practical issues that can keep people trapped in the addiction cycle.

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 02, 2017 12:47 am 
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hi mom
is your daughter taking the entire dose at once?
its okay to split it into 2 doses.
sis

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 02, 2017 12:12 pm 
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Hello,everone im kind of new at this so please just bare with me i just started suboxone well to be honest i switched,from methadon to suboxone and its been pure heck this is my third week on suboxone and my doctore only writes 1 8milagram a day to everybody i dont understand his thinking on that but anyways im having to take more then i end up having to do without but sometimes i dont feel like i took anything then there are times im so sleepy ,and i dont understand this medicine i want too abstane form other drugs but when i feel so bad its hard too do that im sorry if i did not follow protacal on here about my question but i have never posted on here or anywhere before .can someone please help me and tell me what im doing wrong .


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 02, 2017 2:35 pm 
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Hello Heaven,
Welcome, you have found the greatest resource for information on Suboxone on the Internet. This forum and its membership have experience. I always redirect newcomers to the Suboxone Talkzone, Dr Junigs blog. He is the owner and founder on this site. Use the search boxes at both locations.

Your doing nothing really wroug here by posting on this thread. Let me suggest you go to the Introduction section and tell your story there. Many more people people will see it there as well.
The switch from methadone to suboxone may be the hardest ,lougest way to get comfortable and stable. The issue is that it takes more time for the sub to over take the methadone so to speak. And I agree that 8mgs to start is to low imo. Throw in the fact that methadone is there just slows down your process . Your getting there no dought after 3weeks.But hjgher dose would be better. It doesn't sound like that is going to happen with your dr. though.

To understand the medicine please read more about it in the Talkzone and the methadone forum as well. We are hee to help you .


Razor


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