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PostPosted: Sun Jan 16, 2011 4:49 pm 
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So guys I’ve read every post I’ve really looked at myself and how I am felling. I do agree that emotions are one of the most complex things in this world and the littlest thing can play with your emotions. But I am 99.9% sure that SUBOXONE is making me fell this way as in best way put like suboxowned said NUMB. I understand many people on here will disagree with me but remember guys we all have a different chemical makeup, and one thing that affects me can make you feel a thousand times different. I do agree that there def can be other causes to these feelings. But really looking at my life as a whole in this past 4 years I have changed from start of SUB to where I am at now with my treatment. So I made a list and Ive done my research on all the meds I’m on I’ve looked at my time on these meds as well as my life situations eliminating thing off the list and the last 2 things on my list were SUBOXONE and my relations ship with certain family members I hurt during addiction. But that is something I can check off the list cause I have been working on this for years with my psychologist and all the members have for given me and have for gotten it and we get along great. I still feel I lost a lot of trust but the only time I seem happy is when im with my family so that leaves SUBOXONE!


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 Post subject: Re: DOAQ
PostPosted: Sun Jan 16, 2011 8:20 pm 
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laddertipper wrote:
DOAQ, since you've already gone through stopping Sub (and I know I can look up your thread and maybe find the answer to this) but what was your experience with PAWS? I love everything that you said above and agree totally. I'm weaning very slowly and taking good care of myself. I've worked on my marriage tons, worked through tons of personal issues, etc. I'm hoping that if I wean below 200 micrograms, using the liquid taper or cutting the films very small, then I won't have to suffer months of horrible PAWS. Maybe I'm expecting too much? I'm not mentally preparing to have a lot bout with PAWS. That's why I am weaning this slowly in the first place.

laddertipper


Here is the thread I started after I finished my taper - it details like the first 2 weeks of withdrawal symptoms that I had, but I don't consider that to be PAWS. Mostly I was dealing with insomnia, fatigue, irritability and sneezing...but none of it was bad enough to make me miss work or other obligations and I was able to get stuff done generally. Anyway, you can read it here:

http://suboxforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=717

After that I guess I was feeling a lot better because I don't think I wrote much about lingering withdrawal symptoms. I remember that I felt like I was at about 80% of normal at 30 days off Sub, and by 60 days off Sub I felt fantastic. I started back to college right around that time and I was working as well.

I honestly don't think that I had PAWS, or if I did it was really mild and was over within that two month period. I was really feeling great and kicking ass and all and then in November (which was around 90 days off Sub) my dad died quite suddenly and unexpectedly so that was a HUGE curve ball. Still, even throughout grieving while still maintaining all of my life obligations I managed to maintain my equilibrium for the most part. I think all the work I'd been doing for the past 2 years helped a lot.

I'm not saying that just because I managed the transition off of Suboxone with minimal withdrawal & minimal PAWs that it will be like that for everyone...everyone is different and our situations are different. My hope in sharing my story & my experience is that it can provide a positive example (of which there seem to be painfully few on the internet) and hopefully encourage other people getting ready to taper off Sub to look at the situation from a holistic perspective. I really think that each of us knows at some level what we need to heal, it's just a matter of sorting through the bullshit and finding the truth.

From what I understand about PAWS (from school, yay) STRESS is a huge factor in triggering or aggravating PAWS symptoms. Having a good, multi-pronged approach for dealing with stress is crucial. For me, meditation and exercise are the big two and then keeping up with friends, writing, and trying to stay organized (ha) are helpful too.

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 Post subject: Thanks DOAQ
PostPosted: Mon Jan 17, 2011 2:18 am 
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Your site is quite cool! I'm impressed. For some reason, the way you documented your experience and your honesty in all you write REALLY comforts me!! I feel like I have so many more of the unknowns filled in since learning about the liquid taper and what happened after your jump and how you felt one month out, two months out, etc. There's something about how you explained everything that makes me think, "she did it, maybe I can to." You weren't perfect. You did get lazy even when you knew you shouldn't. But then again you tried hard and hung in there even when you were exhausted and trying to maintain a Yoga contortion while your arm is shaking. I can relate to all that stuff. I'm thrilled you blogged about all this and that the rest of us have it to take comfort from.

:D

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 25, 2011 1:01 am 
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I just copied this over here from the "just a bit of "my" own personal views" thread. I think it may apply equally well here?

BTW, the list of side effects is located at http://www.drugs.com/sfx/suboxone-side-effects.html

I was just browsing through that list of side effects I had posted about earlier and I somehow totally missed something the first time through. I told y'all my eyes were starting to cross, that must be why I missed it. :)

Anyway, look at the side effects of the 4 month study under Nervous System. Indeed, as JackCrack pointed out, anxiety is there. But, that's not the one's that I'm surprised about. Depression is listed as a side effect and Insomnia!

I had always thought sub lifted depression, not that it could possibly cause it? I'm sure for the most part sub does help recovering opiate addicts with their depression, I was just surprised to see depression listed as a side effect!

So, couldn't depression cause one to feel their emotions are being "blunted" or "minimized" or whatever the heck the right word is? I'm really not that familiar with depression. Anyone have any comments? I'm just not sure if that's how depression works?

Next, the Insomnia. If a suboxone user suffers from insomnia, I would certainly think they would also feel emotionally "numb" (forgive me if I'm using the wrong words). The "numbness" isn't a direct side effect, I think it would be called a sympathetic side effect? Regardless of what it's called, I know when I don't sleep well I fell shitty the next day. Could that shittiness be called emotionally numb, I would have to say yes. If the insomnia is chronic I would imagine someone would refer to themselves as a zombie.

I sure hope I'm reading those stupid tables correctly and that I haven't just made a complete ass of myself, but if I have made an ass of myself, it's certainly not the first time!! Probably won't be the last either. :cry:


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 25, 2011 10:46 pm 
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Bboy,

I feel I owe you an apology of sorts. I wanted to tell you that I'm sorry I felt the need to PM you about my opinion regarding suboxone "numbing" my feelings instead of stating it publicly on the forum. Please accept my apology.

Towards the end of my sub use I too felt a certain amount of "numbness" for lack of a better word. It didn't start the moment I started on sub, but it sure went away quick when I quit sub. Was sub the cause? I'm can't be 100 % sure? Do I think sub played a role in this symptom, I would have to say yes. I have no evidence to support this opinion, but then again I can't provide any evidence that I loved my father who passed away a couple of years ago. I know I loved him dearly, but I can't think of any 'evidence' that I could possibly show to support that feeling. I'm sure I could provide some anecdotal evidence, but nothing concrete. Yet I know without a doubt I loved my dad.

I also believe that an absence of evidence is not necessarily an evidence of absence.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 26, 2011 4:24 am 
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I've been thinking about this topic of emotional numbing and I realized that I can relate to what Bboy is getting at...but from my experience with other medications.

Some of you probably know from my other posts that I have fought a 20-something year long battle with major depression. I actually have a fun diagnosis of "double depression" which means that I have major depression plus dysthymia and I can tell you that it sucks mightily. Anyway, I have been on and off antidepressant meds since 1987. I've tried many drugs, multiple drug cocktails, you name it I've likely taken it.

Antidepressants have saved my life more than once, but I have a complicated, love-hate relationship with my meds. I love the way they can save me from a destructive, suicidal spiral...but I hate the way that long-term use of antidepressants tends to blunt my normal emotions. So I go for years sometimes on meds, and then I can't take it anymore and I stop and usually I'm fine for a while...until I'm suddenly not fine.

Like addiction, major depression is a relapsing illness. It gets better sometimes and then it gets worse again. I can go for a long time, years even, off meds and do really well...and then all of a sudden: SLAM. The Black Dog is back. And even then, I struggle with the idea of going back on meds because though I know that they will help...I also will have to deal with the side effects, most notably a certain flattening of all emotion. It's like they steal away the most passionate part of me. Sure, the despair and anger are blunted, but so is the expansive joy.

So I get it. Honestly, I don't think there have been many studies of the emotional effects of long-term Suboxone maintainence. How could there be? The medication hasn't been used the way we are using it for all that long. And feelings are subjective. If I had a dime for every time a psychiatrist told me that I was WRONG about what I percieved to be the blunting aspect of my antidepressants, I would have a lot of dimes.

I think it is totally within the realm of possibility that long-term Sub use would cause an effect like the one that people are describing in this thread. And even if it doesn't outright CAUSE it, it could very well contribute to it.

That said, I think that if you are experiencing a lack of emotion or an inability to feel or connect with your feelings...then you have a lot of thinking to do. If I were in that situation, I would try ANYTHING to try to reconnect with my emotions or to bring them back in some way before I took the step of stopping Suboxone. And if nothing worked, I would think long and hard about the possible repercussions of stopping Suboxone and weigh them against the repercussions of staying on Suboxone. And I would have a plan in place for how I would work my recovery, and a backup plan in case that plan failed, and probably another back up plan for that. For example, when I go off antidepressants, I know I have to work harder at other forms of treatment for my depression. But just in case I fall off the wagon, I have certain people who know the early signs of my depression coming back, and they call me on my shit. And just in case they don't, I have it set up with my doctor that when I come in to get my thryoid levels checked, he screens me for depression.

I'm so sorry for anyone who is struggling with this issue. Like I said, I've been struggling with it for many years and I don't have an answer. The only thing that I really know, born out of all the experience I've had, is that you have to look at your life as a whole. Try to be as healthy as you can be at every level of your life, because then if one system is stressed or sick you have something to fall back on.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 26, 2011 12:29 pm 
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Romeo, thanks for posting about your experience - and I really hope that anyone else who PM'd Bboy about this topic can feel comfortable openly posting on the forum. I mean, it's a pretty sad state of affairs when people on a forum are intimidated from posting on such an important subject.

DOQ - I also appreciate your insights. I, too, have been on AD's for 20+ years of clinical depression. Like you, I find that I need them when things get really bad, then over time I feel that they blunt the joy as well as the sadness. I end up going off of them for a period, only to cycle back and have to start taking them again. It truly is a love hate relationship.
I think you put it aptly when you said that Sub doesn't CAUSE the disconnection from our emotions, but may contribute to it. That being the case, the benefits of Sub still outweigh the side effects for those in danger of relapse if Sub treatment were stopped (and that may be most of us). Since I'm in that boat myself right now I've been thinking a lot about what Dr. J said about cultivating emotions. I'm trying to take the time to feel my feelings and stay connected with other people. That's the best I can do for right now.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 26, 2011 12:54 pm 
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Lillyval,

Thank you so much. I really do appreciate the support.

Can I just say how I love your attitude! I enjoy reading your posts a lot.

BTW, great avatar!


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 26, 2011 1:11 pm 
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Maybe I'm the exception, I don't know...I've been on and off antidepressants for over 25 years. I've never found them to affect my emotions. I mean, obviously they helped the depression and my mood, but they never blunted my emotions. To me, I had/have the same wide range of emotions. I still get sad, worried, upset, etc, (in addition to all the positive ones), but the antidepressants allow me to deal with those negative things without going to a very, very dark place. From all the people I know who also take them, others have had my response, too - BUT others have had the same response as Lilly and DOQ. Weird...Maybe it has something to do with the specific chemical imbalance in the brain a particular person has. I honestly don't know.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 26, 2011 5:40 pm 
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Diary of a Quitter wrote:
I've been thinking about this topic of emotional numbing and I realized that I can relate to what Bboy is getting at...but from my experience with other medications.

Some of you probably know from my other posts that I have fought a 20-something year long battle with major depression. I actually have a fun diagnosis of "double depression" which means that I have major depression plus dysthymia and I can tell you that it sucks mightily. Anyway, I have been on and off antidepressant meds since 1987. I've tried many drugs, multiple drug cocktails, you name it I've likely taken it.

Antidepressants have saved my life more than once, but I have a complicated, love-hate relationship with my meds. I love the way they can save me from a destructive, suicidal spiral...but I hate the way that long-term use of antidepressants tends to blunt my normal emotions. So I go for years sometimes on meds, and then I can't take it anymore and I stop and usually I'm fine for a while...until I'm suddenly not fine.

Like addiction, major depression is a relapsing illness. It gets better sometimes and then it gets worse again. I can go for a long time, years even, off meds and do really well...and then all of a sudden: SLAM. The Black Dog is back. And even then, I struggle with the idea of going back on meds because though I know that they will help...I also will have to deal with the side effects, most notably a certain flattening of all emotion. It's like they steal away the most passionate part of me. Sure, the despair and anger are blunted, but so is the expansive joy.

So I get it. Honestly, I don't think there have been many studies of the emotional effects of long-term Suboxone maintainence. How could there be? The medication hasn't been used the way we are using it for all that long. And feelings are subjective. If I had a dime for every time a psychiatrist told me that I was WRONG about what I percieved to be the blunting aspect of my antidepressants, I would have a lot of dimes.

I think it is totally within the realm of possibility that long-term Sub use would cause an effect like the one that people are describing in this thread. And even if it doesn't outright CAUSE it, it could very well contribute to it.

That said, I think that if you are experiencing a lack of emotion or an inability to feel or connect with your feelings...then you have a lot of thinking to do. If I were in that situation, I would try ANYTHING to try to reconnect with my emotions or to bring them back in some way before I took the step of stopping Suboxone. And if nothing worked, I would think long and hard about the possible repercussions of stopping Suboxone and weigh them against the repercussions of staying on Suboxone. And I would have a plan in place for how I would work my recovery, and a backup plan in case that plan failed, and probably another back up plan for that. For example, when I go off antidepressants, I know I have to work harder at other forms of treatment for my depression. But just in case I fall off the wagon, I have certain people who know the early signs of my depression coming back, and they call me on my shit. And just in case they don't, I have it set up with my doctor that when I come in to get my thryoid levels checked, he screens me for depression.

I'm so sorry for anyone who is struggling with this issue. Like I said, I've been struggling with it for many years and I don't have an answer. The only thing that I really know, born out of all the experience I've had, is that you have to look at your life as a whole. Try to be as healthy as you can be at every level of your life, because then if one system is stressed or sick you have something to fall back on.


Invariably you have such a wise way of seeing things and breaking them down. I always enjoy reading what you write and without exception, I always find inspiration in what you say. The thing I find most unique and inspirational about you is that I always get the sense that you are someone who just looks at things, situations, problems, issues, etc. for EXACTLY what they are and challenges yourself to accept that thing for just what it is and all the sides or it. Good and bad. There's so much honesty in what you write. You don't write in black and white. You write in shades of gray and that is the most reflective of life anyway.

laddertipper

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 27, 2011 2:42 pm 
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Hat - the way you described it hit the nail on the head for me:

"I still get sad, worried, upset, etc, (in addition to all the positive ones), but the antidepressants allow me to deal with those negative things without going to a very, very dark place"

But at the opposite end of the spectum I would say I stil feel happy, content & excited but can't go to the extreme of feeling joy or hilarity? Does that make any sense?


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 27, 2011 3:19 pm 
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Yes, what you are saying makes sense to me and I understand. (But for me, I do feel the extremes of joy and hilarity as well as the extremes of really bad days.) My point on this thread has always been that there are an infinite number of variables involved in emotions - way too many to pinpoint only ONE reason. That's all I've ever been trying to say.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 01, 2011 9:53 am 
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Emotionless? Not even close. In fact, I'm probably MORE emotional now than I was when I was using. Suboxone has given me enough relief from the never-ending chatter of addiction in my brain to allow me to actually go out and live my life, and experience all of the good, the bad and the ugly things that can happen in this life.

Before suboxone, I never touched my instruments or my music studio. Now I'm putting the finishing touches on an album, and it's full of highly emotional progressive rock, extremely ambitious and most of all: FUN! There's none of that when you're using, at least there wasn't for me.

Before suboxone, I didn't even pay attention to my wife. Oh, sure, I went to work, paid the bills, bought her stuff, watched TV with her, hung out......but I was really very.....separated from her, emotionally. Now, we're closer than ever. And we talk, and the talks are real, meaningful, open and honest.

Before suboxone, I was either a grouch (from withdrawal if I couldn't get anything) or I was on cloud 9 (from pills/smack/whatever). It was up and down and up and down and up and down.....now, life is just good, every day. Sure, there are bad days, but it's OK to face those bad days head on.

So, no, I don't think I've experienced this state of being "emotionless" while on suboxone. Thus far (26 months of treatment) my overall experience with suboxone has been extremely positive.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 01, 2011 2:27 pm 
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junkie781 wrote:
Emotionless? Not even close. In fact, I'm probably MORE emotional now than I was when I was using. Suboxone has given me enough relief from the never-ending chatter of addiction in my brain to allow me to actually go out and live my life, and experience all of the good, the bad and the ugly things that can happen in this life.

Before suboxone, I never touched my instruments or my music studio. Now I'm putting the finishing touches on an album, and it's full of highly emotional progressive rock, extremely ambitious and most of all: FUN! There's none of that when you're using, at least there wasn't for me.

Before suboxone, I didn't even pay attention to my wife. Oh, sure, I went to work, paid the bills, bought her stuff, watched TV with her, hung out......but I was really very.....separated from her, emotionally. Now, we're closer than ever. And we talk, and the talks are real, meaningful, open and honest.

Before suboxone, I was either a grouch (from withdrawal if I couldn't get anything) or I was on cloud 9 (from pills/smack/whatever). It was up and down and up and down and up and down.....now, life is just good, every day. Sure, there are bad days, but it's OK to face those bad days head on.

So, no, I don't think I've experienced this state of being "emotionless" while on suboxone. Thus far (26 months of treatment) my overall experience with suboxone has been extremely positive.


I don't think I understood the thread. I thought people were comparing how they felt on Sub to before they were using. I know this can be hard to do, especially if there was years and years of using. Anyway, that's what I was doing. I was comparing my feelings/emotions/sensitivity/personality while on Sub to before I started (in my case) drinking and to the periods of time after I'd started drinking but was able to put together some good sobriety time. If I compare how I was while taking Sub to when I was in the throws on my drinking addiction, then hands down I felt much more alive, much greater degree of all emotions while on Sub. When I was drinking, I felt little.

laddertipper

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 02, 2011 4:52 am 
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Well. I am one of those people who just feel so damn bleh. Nothing gives me joy anymore. I'm assuming because sub has a numbing effect. There is a theory regarding opiate receptors being messed up. Well, it sounds like that happened to me. Things that used to leave me absolutely elated all I can muster now is a smile, I never EVER get that NATURAL happy warm fizzy blanket feeling. Not in months, and because of that I want to get the heck off this. I don't even take pleasure in eating something awesome like a pomegranate. I feel as if I am going through the rituals of day to day crap. I haven't even told my doc about this, I don't know what she would say. I just want to feel happy again, and the suboxone is blocking my ability to do so by not leaving any opiate receptors open. Our body naturally produces it's own feel good chemicals like dopamine. Well not me. I would like VERY much to find a solution, because even though I haven't used this is a real awful feeling. Like a damn robot. But I feel sadness and anger a LOT because I feel like its the only thing I CAN feel, make sense? =(

I have to wonder, is there a way to help this? Would stupid antidepressants help? But the side effects of THOSE are bad too, I know someone who gained an enormous amount of weight on those. All set on that...

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 02, 2011 8:11 am 
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hopeful_sobriety,

I don't know what dose you are at but you may want to consider talking to your doctor about this. First, that's what they are there for. Second is that it very well could be a lower dose might be helpful in reducing your side effects. I may not understand your post entirely because you say you want to be happy again AND you also say that your brain doesn't make it's own feel good chemicals but I don't know if you are saying you think it isn't NOW or if you didn't think it did before narcotics either. That would make a difference in what you may wish to do about it.

Cherie

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 02, 2011 4:44 pm 
Emotions.....a deep subject indeed! Especially when discussed by a bunch of addicts/alcoholics! I've kept an eye on this thread and that other one that got "locked" a few days ago. Wow.....I wasn't going to touch that with a ten-foot pole!
A lot of what I have to say on the subject has already been said (probably several times) but here it goes:
Emotions are complex. They're so very subjective. In my opinion, it is certainly no one's right to tell another what they do or do not feel, or (outside a professional therapy session) to tell them why or why not they feel the way they feel. It's up to the individual to examine all the personal variables involved and draw their own conclusions. Obviously, a lot of folks are going to need some professional help to do that......but ultimately it's up to the individual.
I think it's human nature to want to 'blame' someone or something when we don't feel our best. It's especially easy to blame a medication, or perhaps the lack of a medication. In some cases, I believe it's entirely possible that a drug can cause emotional side effects. That's the very purpose of some medications, after all.....to affect the mood. It certainly isn't a stretch (at least in my mind) to think that a very strong opiate (full or partial agonist) could potentially effect one's mood.
I'm not a professional. I'm the last person here to presume to have the answers for Bboy or anyone else who feels that Suboxone effects their mood. With the exception of Dr Junig, nobody here should presume to hold those answers (no matter how much personal therapy they've had or how good their grasp of psych terminology may be.) All any of us can do, in my opinion, is offer support and suggestions on things that might help the poster come to some resolution of the problems they're having.
We are all very different....that goes without saying. Our own personal experiences, our very individual ways of life, levels of education, current living situations, etc play into all of this. We can't compare ourselves to one another directly.....it just won't work. What is true for one, may not be true for another. But to negate someone else's thoughts or feelings simply because we see things differently is just not right, at least not in my opinion.
As to my take on the subject of emotions and Suboxone: I was looking at it more like Laddertripper.....If I compare the way I felt before I abused any substances.....I was definitely happier and I definitely felt my emotions and reacted to them more fully than I have since my addiction began. But....I was 40 years old before my addiction started. I tend to think that is not the norm. I suspect that most people's problems with substance abuse go way back into the teens or twenties. And if that's the case....what baseline is there to compare to? To me, that would throw a wrench into the discussion. How would you know what your baseline for emotions is if you never really had any adult life without substances involved? Anyway, those are my thoughts on the issue.
Now, as far as Suboxone and emotions......I'm fine on Sub. I feel things.....I laugh, I feel sad, etc. Not to the degree that I did while completely drug free, but certainly more than when abusing drugs. I tried to stop Sub and I did notice a return of "normal" or more heightened emotion while on very low doses of Sub, but I relapsed. So, obviously, not worth it!
Sometimes, I think we just have to weigh things out. Maybe some people's emotions are blunted on Sub and that's a shame. But it beats the alternative.......if that means going off Sub and relapsing. So we are left to do as Dr J suggested and work at cultivating emotions and working at living our lives fully and working on our recovery so hard that perhaps someday we'll be able to try life without Suboxone and see for sure if there is a difference or not!
To Bboy (if you're still around) and any of the others who are struggling with this.....I hope you find the answers you're looking for. In my experience, sometimes the best we can hope for is not "pure happiness" or "pure emotion" or the like, but just simply "peace." Peace with where we are right now and hope for the future to be brighter. Most of the time, this is a spiritual thing. There are many here who do not believe in a higher power and they may find some fulfillment in spiritual practices that do not involve God and that may be the case for you. For others of us, there is great peace to be found in that relationship with an all-knowing, all-loving, all-forgiving, grace-filled God.
Emotions aside, for me, Suboxone will remain my choice for now, because I know that without it, right now, I'll be flooded with emotions that I do NOT want.......guilt, remorse, shame, etc!
Don't know if I've added anything of value to the conversation or not. But I do care and I hope we all find that peace we need.


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 Post subject: So well put
PostPosted: Wed Feb 02, 2011 4:50 pm 
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setmefree wrote:
Emotions.....a deep subject indeed! Especially when discussed by a bunch of addicts/alcoholics! I've kept an eye on this thread and that other one that got "locked" a few days ago. Wow.....I wasn't going to touch that with a ten-foot pole!
A lot of what I have to say on the subject has already been said (probably several times) but here it goes:
Emotions are complex. They're so very subjective. In my opinion, it is certainly no one's right to tell another what they do or do not feel, or (outside a professional therapy session) to tell them why or why not they feel the way they feel. It's up to the individual to examine all the personal variables involved and draw their own conclusions. Obviously, a lot of folks are going to need some professional help to do that......but ultimately it's up to the individual.
I think it's human nature to want to 'blame' someone or something when we don't feel our best. It's especially easy to blame a medication, or perhaps the lack of a medication. In some cases, I believe it's entirely possible that a drug can cause emotional side effects. That's the very purpose of some medications, after all.....to affect the mood. It certainly isn't a stretch (at least in my mind) to think that a very strong opiate (full or partial agonist) could potentially effect one's mood.
I'm not a professional. I'm the last person here to presume to have the answers for Bboy or anyone else who feels that Suboxone effects their mood. With the exception of Dr Junig, nobody here should presume to hold those answers (no matter how much personal therapy they've had or how good their grasp of psych terminology may be.) All any of us can do, in my opinion, is offer support and suggestions on things that might help the poster come to some resolution of the problems they're having.
We are all very different....that goes without saying. Our own personal experiences, our very individual ways of life, levels of education, current living situations, etc play into all of this. We can't compare ourselves to one another directly.....it just won't work. What is true for one, may not be true for another. But to negate someone else's thoughts or feelings simply because we see things differently is just not right, at least not in my opinion.
As to my take on the subject of emotions and Suboxone: I was looking at it more like Laddertripper.....If I compare the way I felt before I abused any substances.....I was definitely happier and I definitely felt my emotions and reacted to them more fully than I have since my addiction began. But....I was 40 years old before my addiction started. I tend to think that is not the norm. I suspect that most people's problems with substance abuse go way back into the teens or twenties. And if that's the case....what baseline is there to compare to? To me, that would throw a wrench into the discussion. How would you know what your baseline for emotions is if you never really had any adult life without substances involved? Anyway, those are my thoughts on the issue.
Now, as far as Suboxone and emotions......I'm fine on Sub. I feel things.....I laugh, I feel sad, etc. Not to the degree that I did while completely drug free, but certainly more than when abusing drugs. I tried to stop Sub and I did notice a return of "normal" or more heightened emotion while on very low doses of Sub, but I relapsed. So, obviously, not worth it!
Sometimes, I think we just have to weigh things out. Maybe some people's emotions are blunted on Sub and that's a shame. But it beats the alternative.......if that means going off Sub and relapsing. So we are left to do as Dr J suggested and work at cultivating emotions and working at living our lives fully and working on our recovery so hard that perhaps someday we'll be able to try life without Suboxone and see for sure if there is a difference or not!
To Bboy (if you're still around) and any of the others who are struggling with this.....I hope you find the answers you're looking for. In my experience, sometimes the best we can hope for is not "pure happiness" or "pure emotion" or the like, but just simply "peace." Peace with where we are right now and hope for the future to be brighter. Most of the time, this is a spiritual thing. There are many here who do not believe in a higher power and they may find some fulfillment in spiritual practices that do not involve God and that may be the case for you. For others of us, there is great peace to be found in that relationship with an all-knowing, all-loving, all-forgiving, grace-filled God.
Emotions aside, for me, Suboxone will remain my choice for now, because I know that without it, right now, I'll be flooded with emotions that I do NOT want.......guilt, remorse, shame, etc!
Don't know if I've added anything of value to the conversation or not. But I do care and I hope we all find that peace we need.


I really do not think that anyone could have said that any better. Wow, I am very impressed. That was such a rational and reasonable way to explain a complicated issue and I agree wholeheartedly with everything you wrote....I wish I could have said it that well!!!

laddertipper

_________________
First you take a drink, then the drink takes a drink, then the drink takes you. ~F. Scott Fitzgerald


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 Post subject: Re: (Emotionless)
PostPosted: Wed Feb 09, 2011 8:29 am 
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Bboy42287 wrote:
Well guys this is directed towards us who are taking SUBOXONE!

The other day while speaking with my psychologist he asked me why am I so emotionless or so level, no ups and downs. I don’t smile I don’t laugh but I don’t frown or cry either while talking about very serious issues in my life. And so I talked with my mom and girlfriend about this as well last night and they also said the same thing! I’m sitting here asking myself was has happen from year 1 of Suboxone too year 4. Is anyone else notice these types of changes in yourself since starting SUBOXONE????????????


I can relate to this man. It's a weird one, the ol inability to cry, grieve for feel pangs of sadness. I've had it come and go throughout my life.

It could be many reasons. My doc reckons it's likely from a blockage I've put up to protect myself from showing weakness - ie I've got this damn wall holding back a heap of painful memories from my 10 years of addiction, and I don't want it to crack for fear of well... cracking...

Apparently it's really common for people who've detoxed off opiates, even without pharmacotherapy, to be able to cry until they're clean a coupla years. At least, that's what a rehab worker told me a while back.

Or it could just be brain chemicals, suboxone, sunny days, gloomy days, brain damage.

I will guarantee you though that when you (if you choose to) detox off subox, those tears will come really easy for at least a little while :)


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Fond Du Lac Psychiatry
Dr. Jeffrey Junig, M.D., Ph.D.

  • Board Certified Psychiatrist
  • Asst Clinical Professor, Medical College of Wisconsin

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