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 Post subject: This is my experience
PostPosted: Fri Jan 14, 2011 5:38 pm 
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I have taken Sub for 5 years now and I have been consistently certain that Suboxone was not making me 'numb'. Didn't I cry at times? Yes! Didn't I laugh? Yes! Didn't I feel all the other things I was supposed to feel? Yes!! That is what I believed....

(I'm reluctant to post this because I think people will get defensive. Please understand I do not want to bash Sub and I believe many people should stay on it indefinitely. This is MY experience)

Since weaning down on Suboxone, specifically in the last couple months and a half when I got down around 4 mg and then below it, I've had a gigantic shocker. Slowly, feelings ARE amplified and it's a difference that it pretty dramatic. Yet I believed I was feeling everything normally. The best way I can describe it is that it's as if I've rediscovered something/someone whom I valued tremendously but didn't even know I lost contact with. Previous to this happening, I absolutely did not notice that my feelings had changed in any way, or if I did, I didn't attribute it to Suboxone. Maybe it's because I started as such a tiny dose and worked my way up? It was obviously a gradual enough change over time that I didn't recognize it. I just don't know, and this has been one of the weirdest experiences of my life. It's tough to even explain. I keep coming across little activities and suddenly they are interesting, but I haven't found then interesting in a long time and didn't even remember that I'd stopped finding them interesting. I keep having these "Oh YEAH! moments. This goes both ways, though. For instance, that time of the month for the last 2 months has been really hard on me emotionally. At first this baffled me. What was happening? Also, some months after I'd started taking Sub, I handed over my foster kids to the family that would adopt them. It was a tough choice, even though it was the right choice, and I thought I'd mourned it. However, part of me felt like all of a sudden I was back to where I left off or something and I went through these feelings of loss and sadness and then acceptance over it all over again. WEIRD!!!

When I began tapering, my main reason was that I just didn't need Sub anymore. My pain is under control and I do not want to have to see a doc every month, especially since it's such a long drive. However, this sensation of life being more...colorful/vivid/amplified/whatever....well, that has now replaced my initial reason as the main thing driving me to continue my taper. I LIKE this feeling A LOT. I even like the sad part. It's pretty fantastic, even when I am in w/d! I remember when I tapered very low before (when I was pregnant) that I felt this wonderful thing, especially after I stabilized, but I attributed that to the happy chemicals you get when you are pregnant. Now, this has happened twice to me, and I didn't believe it was something that really happened to anyone. I thought it was 'in people's minds'. And no one told me I seemed like a robot, anyway. I couldn't tell anything was different.

This is a hard thing to talk about without using words that will offend other people. I don't want to say 'numb' or 'flat' or even 'emotionless', but I can't think of many words that are okay, and I'm excited to feel like this. I'm also really, really shocked. Once again, I am not someone who wants to be seen as bashing Sub. I'm as surprised as anyone else that this is what's happening, but I want to be truthful on this forum. Nothing else in life has changed that can explain what's happening, but something is happening and I have zero doubt that it has to do with getting to a significantly lower Sub dose.

laddertipper

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 14, 2011 7:56 pm 
Its funny when you said "i realy like this alot, even the sad part" about when you are feeling your feelings even in withdrawal. I hate that!!! the feeling sad part about withdrawal, anything can make me just start blubbering like a giant baby when in withdrawaling, like said music in a tv commercial or something like that lol, it makes me feel like Im a pussy haha but its just part of getting your feelings back.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 14, 2011 9:09 pm 
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laddertripper-
That is awesome! I would embrace such feelings as you have... that sounds like an amazing thing that you are going through. I have found that my feelings on suboxone are based around my everyday life. I have been out of work for over 6 months, lost my house, car lost everything. I am still not working and I feel worthless!!! I thought that getting back on the Sub would not only make me feel so much better physically, but also motivate me to really get my life back in order. It has helped the WD, but really that is it. I was really surprised when I didnt get back that euphoria that I had gotten in the past with it. I really attribute it to my situation. I think if I were happier with my life, I would have different feelings about the suboxone. Not thinking it would alter my mood chemical any, but I know I am different on it depending on my life.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 14, 2011 10:58 pm 
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A lot great post guys thanks for all your input.

The reason I started this thread is like the title said I truly fell numb to life no ups or downs just level. I will state that I am on other medications but they have never affected my emotions in any way what so ever. I read a few of you say how once you started SUBOXONE it was the complete opposite and all your emotions came back to you. AND LET ME STATE THAT WAS THE SAMETHING FOR MYSELF, once I started SUB everyone close to me said the true Brent is back and mostly my girlfriend noticed the biggest difference I’ve been with her from the start of active addiction to now and she is the one person that knows me better than anyone and when I first started SUB she felt like I was the kid she meet in 9th grade who was full of life and was sensitive, happy, sad and all the emotions we as people fell. But after I talked about this with her the other night she said right around the 3rd year of SUBOXONE is when I started to act like this as in emotionless. I don’t laugh like I use too when it’s just me and her my favorite thing to do is just be with her and enjoy life but now that’s just another thing I fell numb while doing. Or when we get in a serious argument I will not raise my voice I won’t tear up I won’t do anything to show her I’m upset with her if she didn’t know me she would say I was like one of her boring college lecture teachers who must be a thousand years old with their teaching style. But luckily she knows me well enough to notice this change and like I stated above my mom and dad have also notice this along with a psychologist who has seen me for 5 years even notice this and when a person who works with people emotions all days says this too you some part of it must be true. I guess you can say I’m not jumping to conclusions but I’m at the end of my rope with what it can be other than SUBOXONE. The funny thing once I really started thinking about this everyone close to me says in the morning I’m the good old Brent they all remember 2 hours late when I take my first dose I’m this dual numb person so it has to be suboxone. I’m really wondering if I switched to methadone if this would change!!!!!!!!

Thank you so much laddertipper your post/story touched me in a great way and I thank you so much for that. Coming from someone who has been on SUBOXONE as long as me, really help me relate to you in a special way, not because you are agreeing or disagreeing with me but because you told me the TRUTH of your life story with SUB even knowing some might think you are basing SUB but really you didn’t 1 and 2 you are being real and that’s all any of us could ask for on this site or from any human period. Thank you so much for being truthful with all of us.

And that goes too all you guys ive been going through a really hard time this past couple days after reinjuring my knee. And you have all showed me so much support it has made me fell like you are all my family and will help and support me any way possible and that’s hard to find!


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 15, 2011 12:53 am 
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I talk to people about their emotions pretty much from the start of the day to the end of the day. A couple thoughts...

Once a person starts looking inward at 'how he feels', there is so much bias that it is virtually impossible to determine trends, causation, etc. People rate how they feel completely different than OTHERS rate how the same person feels; I will have patients talk about how great they are feeling when their spouses are saying they have been utterly miserable, and vice versa.

With antidepressants, people never respond as one would expect; many times people report feeling better right away from a medication-- far before the effects of the med, which require neuronal growth and new dendrite connections, could possibly have an effect. And then two months later whey the med clearly IS working-- when I see the patient with a much brighter smile, and the person is getting more involved in life, the patient will say that he feels 'worse.'

I have heard patients talk about feeling more emotional on buprenorphine, and others describe feeling less emotional. I have heard the same comments, on both sides, about pretty much every other psych med that I prescribe.

I mentioned 'bias'-- if a person wants to believe that a medication makes them less emotional, then every time the person feels bored or dull, the person remembers that as evidence to support his case. And every time the person is emotional, he dismisses those emotions as not counting for some reason.

People also tend to go through periods of life when they are more emotional, and periods when they are less emotional. sometimes things have a cumulative effect; three deaths in the family over a year or two can make a person very emotional, whereas periods of fewer losses and less change can be associated with less emotional feelings.

I suppose that there may be some effects on emotion from buprenorphine, but I certainly see people on buprenorphine tear up, cry, laugh, get angry, sob uncontrollably, giggle, shout, etc all while taking buprenorphine. If a person misses their emotions, I think that the best thing to do is to cultivate emotions, rather than assuming that buprenorphine is preventing them. It MAY be that the person is becoming closed off to emotions, and that buprenorphine has nothing to do with it. Or it may be that buprenorphine is contributing... and the person has to work harder to keep the emotions available to others.

How to cultivate emotions? Try to stop avoiding your feelings. If something is sad, develop empathy by thinking about why it is sad from the various perspectives, and try to put yourselves in the shoes of others. Try to slow down, and if you catch yourself laughing something off that is actually sad, stop yourself and get grounded, and experience the emotions that others are having.

Just a few thoughts....

I don't buy into the idea that buprenorphine has much of an effect, other than to provide relief from the crazy roller coaster ride of emotions we all had while using. The effects at the receptor are subject to tolerance, and over time, complete tolerance develops. There are, of course, some effects at other classes of opioid receptor--- for example I think it is a kappa antagonist. Perhaps those actions have effects in some people. The antidepressant effects have been suggested to be from those actions, so who knows. But I think that even the discussion in this thread alone shows that effects are variable enough to make it difficult to come to any clear conclusions.


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 15, 2011 10:40 am 
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Interesting thread! I've heard many hard-core 12-step types try to justify their attitudes by using the "no mood-altering drugs" line in reference to ORT. My experience was that neither methadone or suboxone (once stabilized) affected my mood at all. Now that I am off of ORT, I still notice no unexplained mood changes. The only thing I seemed to notice was a heightened sense of smell!


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 15, 2011 1:12 pm 
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moman, those nutty people who bully others in meetings irritate the hell out of me!! Seriously, I've heard bi-polar people told to stop taking their mood stabilizers, suicidally depressed people told to quit their antidepressants, and of course, people on Sub told they aren't really 'sober' until they stop Suboxone. I went to meetings for years and I made it a point of pulling people aside after meetings, especially after they'd been read the riot act on their meds, and I'd tell them I was on Sub and not ashamed and taking my chips and I was SOBER!!! I was NOT getting high!! And I was the secretary of at least two meetings. It makes me endlessly mad that there are these few people who know everything and just categorically write-off other people's medical diagnoses as hogwash. I do not go to meetings anymore because of this attitude. It's so irresponsible and IMO, the recovering opiate addicts clinging to sobriety with their bloody fingernails have a nasty, green little monster inside them that makes them so irritated at other recovering opiate addicts who are taking Suoxone. That monster's name is J.E.L.O.U.S.Y. I've heard the rants about how 'it's not fair' that so-and-so is on Suboxone because they don't really have to deal with their addiction, blah, blah, blah. Obviously, that is jealously. (Someone is going to be offended at this; I just know it. I'm not saying EVERYONE not of Sub is jealous of other people on Sub.) It's horrible because the people weaned rapidly off of Sub and then discharged with no Sub typically showed up to one more meeting max and then fell off the planet, phone disconnected, etc. I'm serious. The meetings I frequented were all at the hospital where I did my alcohol detox (5 times). After years at those meetings, I can think of exactly ONE person who did the rapid taper (onto Sub and then right off of it) and who continued coming to meetings. Only one. He became a great friend to me and he was doing fantastic, or so he told me. He stuck around for a year and a half. But he is D.E.A.D. He committed suicide out of no where. I hate to think about that. He had relapsed and I guess he felt really bad about it. I always wonder what would have happened if he stayed on his medication or if I was a better friend and payed more attention to how he was doing. His name was Daniel. :cry:

Thanks BBoy for what you said. You are right. It's just MY experience and it doesn't apply to everyone and it's not going to be true for everyone. I'm just sharing my own experience.

You know when something in life happens and it's crystal clear to you and other people try to tell you that it's probably not likely or not happening but you are 100% positive that it's really what's happening so you just have to internally roll your eyes? That's what's happening in this situation for me. I am the only one inside this body with myself. I keep getting these weird flashes of my old me, the one who was known for being very stubborn and opinionated, sometimes impossible, and the one who had insane drive when she saw something that she really wanted. The one who wanted to try lots of new stuff and was a big kid forever. I'm so thrilled because I have been covering all my bases, but it hasn't been fulfilling to ME. I haven't wanted anything as badly as I used to want it and haven't been having as much fun either. I lost a lot of my fire too, which maybe was a good thing but it bugged ME. This is why I do not like antidepressants. I've tried them during really tough periods of life, and they made stuff easier, but I wasn't myself. Everything was just.....'alright'. This is why I have attention deficit to the max but will not take the meds for it. I lose my fire when I do and I'd rather learn to live with my busy brain. I know I'm more sensitive to lots of meds than other people. Maybe that's what's going on. IDK, really. I just know this is truly my experience and not only my experience, as other people go through this same thing, so I wish that at least it could be recognized as something that can and does happen to many people. My new Sub doc told me it "not tapering off the Sub' that is causing you to have these feelings. I was SO excited to tell him about it and then he shut me down. I believe he should be more open-minded. Truthfully, until I saw this thread, I had thought about it and I was not going to post about this because I was too afraid to make anyone mad.

I've been kind of just 'alright' with many things and so my husband has made the decisions, and boy oh boy, I'm getting a lot more opinions on how I want stuff! We are moving across the street to a house on the river and I'm so friggin' excited. I'm going to made a zip line from one side to the other and a tire swing and a deck going down to the river, etc. I'm very excited and fired up about it. You have to understand that not much has been getting me fired up like that for a while. I'm learning to snowboard, which I just didn't feel like doing. I'm getting my sex drive back! Seriously, that's a big one, cause I thought that was dead and buried. The morning air has actually started giving me that ZING feeling in my stomach like it used to a long time ago. Does anyone have any clue what I'm talking about, lol? I realized I want to learn to sew and so I got a machine and my little girl and I are learning. The adrenaline rushes I get from something spooking me are so much more extreme. There's lots of stuff like this. It's making it worth it to feel yucky for periods of time as I taper.

Still, IMO, if Suboxone levels emotions out for some people, maybe that is a very good thing. Maybe that is part of how it works. Sometimes, emotions are so extreme they make us want to go and stick our head in the sand or a bottle or vodka or a handful of Oxy. I never want to be a Sub-Basher, because I truly believe it saved my best friend from dieing of Oxy addiction. I think it probably saved my life because I think I would have become an Oxy addict and maybe died myself. I could have lost my family. It's impossible to know just how much I could have lost if I never chose to start Suboxone. I do not regret being on it one bit. I used to regret it, but I wasn't giving it true credit for the mayhem it warded off.

Thanks for listening everybody. And thanks for throwing in your two cents, Dr. J. because I TRULY respect your opinion and your book and vids have helped me more than I can ever put into words; and understanding Suboxone has given me a lot of peace. I need to brush up on all my alpha, beta, magna, gamma, summa cum laude, kapa receptors so I can give you a more meaningful response. :lol:

Happy Saturday!
laddertipper

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 15, 2011 4:09 pm 
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Great posts Dr.J and Lddetipper!

I took alot of what you both said to hart thankyou!


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 15, 2011 9:31 pm 
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I believe there is a subset of NA people who call themselves "NA purists" that really put down any sort of medication. There definition of "drug free" changes frequently....I've heard crap like: any drug that you have to taper off of is taboo, etc., etc. Many are those who were unsuccessful with methadone, others have simply "heard" bad things and accept that as fact. Of course, these same folks would call you crazy for questioning their smoking addiction, etc. These are the folks who get their jollies trying to define another persons "clean time", argue that NA's steps are different, yada, yada. Its unfortunate, because it turns off many folks who could benefit from that fellowship.


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 Post subject: That's for sure!
PostPosted: Sat Jan 15, 2011 9:44 pm 
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I remember being told at NA that I hadn't started my recovery because I was taking antibuse. BTW, antibuse isn't anything you even have to wean off. It just will make you sick if you drink and I took it for a little while after I stopped drinking to help deter me when the idea of drinking crossed my mind while I got my life together. In some way, it's like Sub is for opiate addiction. Dual Recovery Anonymous (DRA) meetings are much more lenient but they are hard to find. It is actually quite sad that there's this narrow mindedness. It does drive people away and makes people feel ashamed and like they cannot be honest. I don't think that's the best way to help people at all!!

laddertipper

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 15, 2011 10:20 pm 
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I just want to add to the original topic that when I got off suboxone, I do remember feeling things in a different way. Of course I went through withdrawal. Then I went through 2 surgeries. I was definitely struggling having jumped from 12mg per day.

However, even on the good days, I do remember just looking at the trees and having a different feeling. I remember feeling the air on my face and enjoying it. I remember going to the lake and feeling very alone. These are all things I don't stop to take in very often on a regular basis because I am so busy going here and there, etc. But like Dr. J said, emotions vary depending on many circumstances. I think getting off suboxone is one of those life changing circumstances. I don't want to deny anyone's experience because I had mine too. At the same time, I would caution taking too seriously those who have gotten off suboxone or even people tapering who say they are having more emotions than while on suboxone and concluding it must be the suboxone that was causing lack of emotion. Getting off suboxone and tapering even are both major life changing events. They are emotional in and of themselves. It is kind of like when my cousin died last year. It was an emotional event. When I saw a beautiful sunset, it would give me emotion because it would make me think of him. The beach would give me more emotion because we used to go there. Watching a mother with her child was more emotional. I think even a year later I have more emotion around certain things because of that event. I imagine in another year or two, the sunset and the beach won't generate as much emotion because I will have gotten used to it by then.

Again, everyone's experiences are totally valid. I just think if anyone is considering going on, off, or changing ORT's, they should give this a whole lot of thought from many different aspects.

Thanks BBoy for bringing up another excellent topic of conversation. I always get something out of it.

Cherie

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 16, 2011 1:26 am 
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I went through a phase of heightened emotions when I first stopped Suboxone. Sometimes it was nice and I felt really connected and like things were a little brighter...and sometimes it sucked and I was downright touchy and weepy for no real reason. After about 2 months, I was pretty much back to "normal" (whatever that means).

Now, at 16 months post-Suboxone, I find that my emotions fluctuate depending on what is going on in my life. If I am taking good care of myself and meditating on the regular and spending time with friends, I feel good and connected and things seem a little brighter and I tend to have many moments where I just notice how beautiful the world can be and feel really greatful for what is good in my life. If I have a lot of stress and I'm super busy and I'm not taking good care of myself I get pissy and down and feel negative OR I feel flat and cut off from my emotions (because hey, why do I want to feel my crappy negative emotions, they suck!) And, of course, there's always hormones in play just to throw a monkey wrench into the whole situation. When I find myself strangely getting teary-eyed over some cheesy tv show, sure as shit it's that time of the month. Then there are days or even weeks when I'm just doing the grind and I'm not really emoting a lot.

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 16, 2011 1:00 pm 
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laddertripper - your posts really struck a chord with me. They brought me back to a time when I was trying to taper off painkillers on my own, just before I decided to get on Sub. While it was overall a very painfull time, of being sick and withdrawing, as I strung days and sometimes weeks together without opiates I felt my emotions coming back. While often this meant crying at the drop of a hat, there were also times when I cracked up laughing with my kids like I couldn't remember doing in a long time.
Now that I am much more stable an healthy on Sub, I do truly feel that my emotions are "opiated" to some extent, like they were when I was using. I think you said it best when you said it's that "fire" or I would call it passion that's missing. Someone else said that doing things is too much of a "chore". I feel that way too. Even my posts reflect it. I might have a lot to say, but I'll only write 2 or 3 sentences, if I reply at all.
I have a lot of life left, and I was always an ambitious person who had a lot of goals and dreams. I kind of feel like all of that is sort of IDK...subdued I guess.
This is only MY experience and I know that it is either not true, or even the opposite for others, so I'm in no way trying to sway how anyone else feels about this. I can only say to Brent, if you feel this way I doubt methadone is going to change it, althoug if you need to go on 'done of pain or other reasons, that's a different issue.

Suboxowned - 4mg/day is pretty much the minimum ceiling dose. If you're getting RLS between doses sometimes, you might feel much better if you could increase, even to 6mg. I know money is an issue.

I appreciate the insights and the fellowship here. Thanks everyone for making this such a great forum.
Lilly


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 16, 2011 1:29 pm 
Lillyval:

I also know what your talking about. I sometimes feel like i dont have the same go getter attitude i used to have. I use to have a lot of drive but i have almost turned into an old man. Im 25 years old, i go to sleep at 8 to 9 at night. I wake up at 5 every morning. I literally live like im old or something. I use to not go to sleep until late if at all. Yea a lot of that was due to partying but 2 nights ago i went to my sisters boyfriends house to just hang out for awhile and i had to come home early because i couldnt stay awake any longer. I just didnt feel any kinda joy or happiness to actually be out of the house with something to do. I use to be the life of the party with or without drugs. I just cant find that in myself anymore. It has come to my benefit because it keeps me around the house which makes things a lot easier. However, i like the night life but i cant have one anymore because i have a "bedtime" now lol. I guess we have make sacrifices to achieve the ultimate goal, which is ok. I just dont get how this never happened when i was taking methadone off the street(my DOC). I was full of life an ready for whatever. Its an opiate so it just doesnt make sense how suboxone does anything different than other opiates. Suboxone may be a partial opiate, but its still an opiate so i cant understand how it doesnt act as all the other opaites do. Im just having a bad day today so forgive me if i've said something out of the way. peace


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 Post subject: Lilyval and DOAQ
PostPosted: Sun Jan 16, 2011 1:56 pm 
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Lillyval wrote:
laddertripper - your posts really struck a chord with me. They brought me back to a time when I was trying to taper off painkillers on my own, just before I decided to get on Sub. While it was overall a very painfull time, of being sick and withdrawing, as I strung days and sometimes weeks together without opiates I felt my emotions coming back. While often this meant crying at the drop of a hat, there were also times when I cracked up laughing with my kids like I couldn't remember doing in a long time.
Now that I am much more stable an healthy on Sub, I do truly feel that my emotions are "opiated" to some extent, like they were when I was using. I think you said it best when you said it's that "fire" or I would call it passion that's missing. Someone else said that doing things is too much of a "chore". I feel that way too. Even my posts reflect it. I might have a lot to say, but I'll only write 2 or 3 sentences, if I reply at all.
I have a lot of life left, and I was always an ambitious person who had a lot of goals and dreams. I kind of feel like all of that is sort of IDK...subdued I guess.
This is only MY experience and I know that it is either not true, or even the opposite for others, so I'm in no way trying to sway how anyone else feels about this. I can only say to Brent, if you feel this way I doubt methadone is going to change it, althoug if you need to go on 'done of pain or other reasons, that's a different issue.

Suboxowned - 4mg/day is pretty much the minimum ceiling dose. If you're getting RLS between doses sometimes, you might feel much better if you could increase, even to 6mg. I know money is an issue.

I appreciate the insights and the fellowship here. Thanks everyone for making this such a great forum.
Lilly


I appreciate that, especially as it comes from someone who is currently on Sub and not tapering. I think even if there are effects to a degree of being on Suboxone, they are worth it and then some in many, many situations. Like Dr. J said, emotions can be cultivated, and I think that's a great idea if someone feels like their emotions are dulled at all. In no way would I ever recommend that someone who has suffered from long-term and dangerous opiate addiction should quit taking Suboxone, even if they think their emotions are blunted to a point. There are benefits and drawbacks to every medication. The benefits of staying on Suboxone certainly out way the drawbacks for lots of people!! The main reason I wanted to talk about this when I saw the thread was that I was afraid to because I thought it might offend people, yet I love this forum because people ARE so open, which is what makes this place as helpful as it is. And this HAS been such a weird thing to have happen because I wasn't anticipating it or expecting it. I sincerely was very much altered over the years on Suboxone. I cannot really even explain the change, but let's just say, I LOST my drive and direction to a large extent. Suddenly, I'm wondering why I've been okay with what I'm accomplishing in my life. I think if I'd been focusing on cultivating my emotions, I would have had a bit better experience. Tapering off Sub is really tough, IMO, so if little things are surprising me with how much interest they now hold, then thank God because it's helping me keep plodding along. To be honest, I struggled with admitting this to even MYSELF. Once I did, I went through this period of thinking, "Holy cow, I spent five years on Sub and did I miss a lot of feeling life entirely during that time?" Well, I personally think I obviously did but still, I don't regret it whatsoever. I ended up being physically healthy and now ready to wean off of Suboxone today. And I healed from a physical injury that I was told I'd never heal from, and I didn't have to start taking regular opiates to tolerate the pain of my injury. What more could I ask for, really?

DOAQ, I literally just started meditating in the late evening when the kids are in bed and I've only done it a few days so far. On a couple days I was getting sick of the physical w/d, it helped me SO MUCH!! I've been amazed at the power there is in meditation! I concentrate on nothing but my breathing and it steadied my anxiety (thus letting me fall asleep easier when I got in bed). Then, I imagined the blood going into my hands and warning them up. This is the part that truly blew my mind, because I always have freezing hands during tapering. My hands actually got warm and this is while I'm sitting so still!!! I was so excited about this. It made me feel like a mentally crazy strong Tibetan monk or something. Then, of course, when I stopped meditating they got cold again, lol, but still, meditating is something I am excited to be learning about and giving a shot. And like you, I want to include it in my life even after I'm off Sub completely.

laddertipper a.k.a laddertripper :D

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 16, 2011 2:34 pm 
Here is something that i've picked up on as the thread has carried on. Even with people saying their emotions have been numbed etc. etc., i've heard many say that they came back full force once they stopped sub or while tapering. This in itself means that no permanent damage is being done even if your emotions are being numbed. I myself believe i can deal with this for the greater good.


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 16, 2011 3:03 pm 
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I absolutely DO NOT think there is any permanent damage done in taking Suboxone. No way! I've never read anything that would make me worry about that at all, and if I had read something, I certainly WOULD have remembered it and worried about it. i mean, our brains, believe it or not, are more resilient than we give them credit for. I smashed my brain so hard and it bled and swelled and all that and I had no short-term memory or knew who I was, etc. Yet here I am, five years later, with almost NO lasting side effects from that trauma. If my brain can come back from that, well then I'm pretty sure taking Suboxone for 5 years won't damage it. How could it damage it anyway? I think there's nothing to worry about in that regard.

laddertipper

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 16, 2011 3:11 pm 
I guess it depends how you define damage, sure it will probably repair itself over time but once we all stop sub we are most likely going to suffer miserable PAWS for a long period of time. This is not just true with sub tho its true with almost any opiate so I dont wanna single out suboxone. I for one am very afraid of stopping suboxone because Im a huge baby when it comes to withdrawal and the depression,lethargy from post acute withdrawal. I hope a steady taper plan will help ease the blow a bit but tapering never seemed to do that much for me other than prolong the misery.


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 16, 2011 4:12 pm 
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Try not to convince yourself that you will have to suffer miserable PAWS when you stop Suboxone. I really think that if you take care of your business while you are in Suboxone treatment and if you stop when you are really ready, you won't go through months of being miserable with PAWS.

And by taking care of business, I don't just mean taking your Sub and not taking other opiates. I mean doing the mental and physical housekeeping that's necessary to a healthy life. I don't think these things are exactly the same for everyone...but everyone needs to figure out what works best for them. For some of us it is 12 step meetings, for others it is therapy, or meditation or some combination of these things. Add to that the cultivation of positive life-habits like eating right, exercising, having some kind of sustaining interest in life whether it is hobby, family, school or work, maintaining a supportive social network, getting enough sleep and addressing any other mental health issues that might be present (many people with addiction also suffer from some other disorder like anxiety or depression).

This is a lot of work, but you only get one life you know? Recovery has to mean more than just taking Suboxone to stay off of opiates and then eventually quitting Suboxone. That's not a plan.

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 Post subject: DOAQ
PostPosted: Sun Jan 16, 2011 4:21 pm 
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DOAQ, since you've already gone through stopping Sub (and I know I can look up your thread and maybe find the answer to this) but what was your experience with PAWS? I love everything that you said above and agree totally. I'm weaning very slowly and taking good care of myself. I've worked on my marriage tons, worked through tons of personal issues, etc. I'm hoping that if I wean below 200 micrograms, using the liquid taper or cutting the films very small, then I won't have to suffer months of horrible PAWS. Maybe I'm expecting too much? I'm not mentally preparing to have a lot bout with PAWS. That's why I am weaning this slowly in the first place.

laddertipper

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