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PostPosted: Thu Jan 23, 2014 10:05 am 
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About 6 days ago I found my self on the internet looking for the best way to kill my self. Fortunately I found a web site that said that 1 in 40 attempts are successful and that to be 100% successful you need to use a shotgun to the head. Well I don't have a shot gun and I doubt that anyone would give me one so I decided to make a different choice. I quit my Suboxone, just quit. Now here is the issue. I have had 0 PAWS, NADA, Nothing. I am either the luckiest girl in the world or I am about to start shitting my pants at any moment. Now in the past I was taking 10 to 15 Oxys a day the 10's (Green ones). After about 24 to 48 hours I was pretty sick if I stopped. Then I get on Suboxone. I started at 16. Now I recall a time that I forgot to take it for 3 days in a row and the sickness hit fast and it hit hard. I have tapered down to 12 and the last time I took a strip was 6 days ago. What the hell is going on?
The reason that I decided to do this is simple. Since I have been off the pills and on the strips I have been majorly depressed. I fear that I have taken so many opiates that I have killed my brain and I can no longer make any dopamine (i think that's what makes you happy) on my own and my life is void of any joy. I decided that if I can stop taking the stuff that is messing with that that MAYBE, JUST maybe I will be happy again. I have tried about all the anti-depressants under the sun and NONE of them had ANY effect on me. This is the last thing that I can think of to do. But now I have a different feeling than depression. I have fear. Fear that any moment I am going to get sick and this dream of being off Suboxone will come crashing down and I will have to succumb to the strip in my pocket that I have been carrying around for 6 days now.

Thoughts?


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 23, 2014 12:00 pm 
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First of all, if you are having thoughts of harming yourself, get to a hospital. Call 911 if you can't get there yourself.

I've had patients stop buprenorphine without experiencing withdrawal-- but they are rare. More likely, you have been taking far more buprenorphine than necessary to be above the ceiling threshold, and you are waiting for your blood level to drop below that threshold. When it does-- probably soon-- you will get the withdrawal.

Opioids are ONE factor in mood. I do not like what you are planning, because EVERYONE is at significant risk for depression during opioid withdrawal. If you are already depressed, you will likely get worse. Again-- get help.

You will come across my counter-arguments to the people who blame buprenorphine for how they feel. From a neurochemical standpoint, it is difficult to imagine how buprenorphine would make mood worse. The drug is under trials as an antidepressant, through actions at the opioid receptors other than mu receptors-- the one that is associated with tolerance and withdrawal.

My experience after treating hundreds of people over a number of years is having the occasional person who blames taking buprenorphine for various symptoms. 'I've never felt normal on it', or 'I've gained weight', or 'I want to exercise and it keeps me from doing that'. In all cases, I do my best to hear them out, and also remain objective. For example I will ask, if a person is blaming buprenorphine for being overweight, what did they weight before opioids? What does his/her sister weigh?

Over and over, I see the same thing... people stop buprenorphine and feel better after 2-3 months. But the exercise that buprenorphine 'prevented' never starts. The weight loss never happens. The motivation to get a job-- something 'buprenorphine blocked'-- is not there any more than it was ON buprenorphine. And people who felt tired or depressed ON buprenorphine feel just as tired and depressed OFF buprenorphine. Of course, that is what the science would predict-- given the tolerance that develops to actions at the mu receptor.

In your case, 'timbom'-- realize that I see many people who suffer from depression, who never took opioids or buprenorphine. You may be one of those people. The sad thing is that people who DO have histories of depression have a higher rate of relapse to opioids-- although the rate in everyone is about 95% within one year, so it is hard to imagine how much worse it could be!

You have your perceptions, and your reasons-- and of course you can do whatever you want to do. I started this forum years ago to present what I SEE in people taking buprenorphine.

I do see a related problem in younger people on buprenorphine-- which I 'blame' on the fact that the person never gained practice or experience with life before getting addicted in the first place. I'm NOT saying this is you, as I've NEVER MET YOU. But what I see are people who get on buprenorphine, and the worst of their problems gets better, i.e. the constant up and down, the chase for drugs, the constant threat of withdrawal.. But the person still lacks self esteem, doesn't know about the need to push one's self toward personal growth, doesn't know the basics when it comes to meeting and making new friends, doesn't realize the importance of hard work and exercise, etc.

When people are depressed, they feel driven to do all of the things that only make the depression worse. They start to get better, at some point, when they understand the importance of their own role in getting better. They realize that it is necessary, at some point, to forgive themselves and move on. They realize that they need a goal(s) in life to better themselves---- work toward a degree, work toward a raise, work toward advancement, or work toward making his/her kids's lives more rewarding or important.

I am going to write a post about psychiatry one of my blogs, patienttimes.com.... to describe how there is a proper way to go about using antidepressants to treat depression. Many docs just throw meds in different combinations, without a plan for what they are doing. If you google 'Texas depression treatment algorithm' you will find one such approach. Were you my patient, I would want to get you out of your depression BEFORE considering going through opioid withdrawal.

I wish you luck, sincerely.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 23, 2014 4:30 pm 
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Hi Timebom,

I'm not exactly sure what to make of this post. I can't recall ever seeing someone join the forum and having the first post they write be about how they have been contemplating suicide. I hope you will read and then re-read Dr. J's response to you above. Quitting suboxone is NOT going to help your depression...one of the main symptoms we see over and over again reported with discontinuing ANY opiate is severe depression. I am fairly certain that you will get more depressed after the suboxone has time to leave your system.

I would also agree with Dr. J that you are probably in a holding pattern on your WD. Taking a dose of 16mgs per day will leave alot of sub stacked in your system. Jumping from that kind of dose is not easy, I would be SHOCKED if you walked away from it with no WD. It's coming, you need to be prepared for it.

If you honestly believe that suboxone is to blame for you depression, why don't you try reducing your dose first? It's not out of the ordinary for people to have some side effects from suboxone which are a bit bothersome that are alleviated from lowering their dose. Have you discussed any of this with your doctor? I would bet that they would be incredibly concerned with what you are experiencing. I just don't believe stopping the subs is the right decision for you right now. It certainly sounds like you are in a very fragile place, and I'm terribly afraid that once the WD sets in it is going to become drastically worse. Please call your doctor ASAP!

Q

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No one can make you feel inferior without your consent. ~ Eleanor Roosevelt


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 24, 2014 9:58 am 
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Well here I am at day number 7. And the only thing that I am feeling is mild chills and sweats. Still in disbelief that this is really happening. 7 days is too far to turn back now.
I saw my therapist last night and I told him everything that I had written above. His responses were..well I don't know, but here is what he said.

1. I am a bull headed girl.
2. I might want to go to the ER for some fluids.
3. This is not the way he wanted to do this.
4. He was not too sure who was in my head.
5. He wanted to support me.

I explained to him that once you are standing on the edge and you don't jump off that it changes you. I told him that I am not scared, I am not depressed, I am not anything...I am just waiting for the sickness moment by moment that never seems to come. I assured him that I was really FINE.

After that he called my Doc who prescribes my anti depressants and Subs and told him what I had done. The Dr told me that if I get really sick I can cut a corner of a strip and take that. Go as long as I can and then do it again. He said a few weeks of that and I should be out of the woods.
I agreed that I would. However I have not felt ill enough to do so.

I told my therapist that one day he is going to tell his future clients about the girl that jumped off at 12.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 24, 2014 2:53 pm 
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TimeBom,
Wow, just read your thread. I am glad you are posting, it shows you care enough about yourself to seek help/solutions before you do anything drastic. The last sentence you wrote " I told my therapist that one day he is going to tell his future clients about the girl that jumped off of 12". To me, I take that you are determined to do this. That can be a very powerful and positive thing. I hope you are saying this because you are wanting to see how you feel without sub in your system over time, I think you would like to see if you can feel "happy" without sub, because you were not feeling "happy" with sub. Please look at doing life choice changes while off of sub. Exercise, exercise, exercise, drink lots of water, good diet, some vitamin supplements, etc. Why not? Give it a shot, I have read many people who have added this while tapering and then stopping sub. helped their bodies and brain with the"re-set" it goes through. Not only will it help you feel better, it occupies yourself, gives you goals( make small goals on your exercise routine daily), this will help take your mind off of the negative. Also find support groups besides your therapist to go to as much as possible. Keep going to different meetings until you find ones that you like. Try hard to be "part of something greater than yourself", that can be a powerful tool when you feel down. Take care, always take care of you, you are worth it.


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