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PostPosted: Wed Oct 20, 2010 3:02 pm 
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It certainly seems like the treatment that you are receiving and the instructions you are getting are significantly different from what many/most of us here have received. Then again, those of us who have gotten different instruction are also planning to stay on Suboxone as a long-term treatment. From all that you have now said, it seems clear that the people that are treating you are not at all using Suboxone as a long-term maintenance medication but rather as a detox medication to simply get you off of opiates in a short amount of time. There are clearly different schools of thought about all of this. Some "professionals" don't want anything to do with Suboxone at all and never prescribe or recommend it - ever. There are others who use it during detox in order to lesson the withdrawal from opiates over a relatively short period of time - often 30 days or less. That seems to be what you are doing. Then there are those "professionals" who prescribe and recommend Suboxone as a long-term and sometimes life-long treatment for opiate addiction. That is what many of us here receive, including myself.

Those of us on the long-term program are told to dose only once per day because multiple doses are said to reinforce addictive behavior. We attempt to never take Suboxone in response to feelings or symptoms. We take it once a day and live our lives no matter what comes - or at least try to. You are being told exactly the opposite of that. You are being told to take the Suboxone directly in response to how you are feeling. You are told to take it multiple times a day and you often focus on how you are feeling and respond with medication. Certainly for the short-term, I can understand that thinking. Your entire purpose for Suboxone is much different than many of the rest of us. They want to get you opiate free and then focus on treating you to stay that way. We are being treated with Suboxone as the treatment - not a precursor to it.

Which is better? Which is right and which is wrong? Hell, I don't know. Likely, both or neither. For me, and many of us here, I/we have chosen Suboxone as the treatment with hopes that I'll be able to come off of it at some point. This is a much different program than you seem to be under. It would seem to me that you have two major hurdles to cross. The first is stopping all opiates - including the Suboxone. The second is staying stopped. Since you are still in that first phase, you may not know what they have planned for you to stay stopped. Unfortunately, just as hard as it is for you these days dealing with the cravings, etc., I'm sorry to have to say that it is likely to be just as harder once you are stopped. Certainly your physical symptoms should and will subside at some point. It is unfortunately the mental cravings that will continue to persist. Why else do people relapse months and often years after their physical withdrawal has ended?

I guess there really is no reason to focus on step two until you have step one completed. I do have to wonder, however, how you will be able to stay drug-free once you are done with Suboxone. Hopefully they have a great plan in place in order to help you do that. Many would say that without a very structured format, it will be very difficult. Either way, now knowing the plan and program you are in, the advice and experience of many of us may not apply as we are on a different road to the same destination. We all are trying to stay out of active addiction. You are just taking a different path in getting there. There is nothing wrong with that. I always look at the destination or the results/outcome, rather than the methods. Whatever works for you, works for you! Unfortunately, much of what we have learned and have been told do not apply to someone using Suboxone as a short-term detox agent. That doesn't mean that we won't be able to help you. Just keep in mind that for many of us, our focus and experience comes from using Suboxone as a long-term or permanent treatment - not as a short-term detox agent. I hope all of that makes sense.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 20, 2010 6:57 pm 
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Oooooh! Wow... Okay... I get it now.

I am in rehab to get off of opiates using Suboxone as an aid, not maintenance. I know that I have a long road ahead of me and that staying OFF opiates will be difficult and I know that I will probably be attending NA meetings the rest of my life. I know all about PAWS (post acute withdrawal syndrome) and that it can hit me even YEARS down the road. I know that relapsing, on average, is very high. However, I do have a TREMENDOUS support system with my friends and family and the people I've met in NA. I'm also in counseling which I will continue until they feel I will be "okay" with just NA. I also know that I will probably have withdrawals even after I taper off the Suboxone.

I know that staying opiate free is going to be difficult. But, I have to believe that I can do it. If I do relapse, I intend to get back ON the wagon ASAP. I do not want to be on opiates anymore, Suboxone or otherwise. I want to be clean and will do whatever is necessary to do so.

I honestly thought that this forum was for people like me who intended to stop using Suboxone, whether it be in a year or two or a month or two.....


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 20, 2010 7:25 pm 
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This forum is for people in recovery - whether it be with the help of suboxone, methadone, or total abstinence. This is not a stopping suboxone forum. Just to clarify.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 20, 2010 8:36 pm 
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Libra, you are most certainly welcome here and much of the info will still apply. It's just that if some of us were telling you things that seemed 180 degrees opposite of what your clinic was telling you, that is the reason why. As for what this place is all about, designed for, and what you will find here:

This forum is a place for addicts and for those who love them to discuss addiction, particularly addiction to opiates (pain pills). It is here to discuss symptoms, patterns, consequences, and treatment of opiate dependence. Recognizing that opiate dependence is a potentially fatal disease, we respect all effective treatments for opiate dependence, whether or not the treatment includes buprenorphine or Suboxone. This forum is for people who have made their choice whether it be for Suboxone, for Methadone, or for meetings and no medication.

So as you can see, you certainly fit into this. And, no, I didn't come up with that paragraph on my own. I took it from the main page of the web site. LOL When all else fails, read the directions, or in this case the main page. And I thought it was just us guys who refused to read the instructions. LOL

So, glad we got that all cleared up. Please don't think in any way that this place doesn't apply to you. It most certainly does and you are most certainly welcome here. You are not different than the rest of us. You are just using a different method than SOME of us. We still all have the same main goal.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 20, 2010 9:16 pm 
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Hello Libra,

I just want you to that WE support you know matter what choice you make. Hey if you can stop suboxone in a month and just do NA thats great!!! If I could do that successfully right now I would do it. We are all different in many way but there is one HUGE thing thats the same. We all lost controll with using pills and other opiates and our lives became completly unmanageable and we needed help!!

I have been on suboxone for over 7months now, I have had 2 relapses with oxys, I have tried stopping everything including suboxone, and failed. I go to NA meeting daily, I love NA and with out it I would not be where I am today. Suboxone is a huge tool in my recovery! NA is a huge tool in my recovery! I believe I need many tools :lol: There will come a day when I am ready to stop suboxone completly, I don't know when that will be, but I know my higher power has guided me to suboxone and will guide me through stopping suboxone but for right now I need it in my tool box :lol: As do many people here on this site and all over the world, I think what we were just trying to do is make sure that you new all your options. This site is great and the people here will support you in any choice you make :D

As for you and your Dr.'s method of how to use your suboxone i've never really heard anybody use it that way successfully and that was all I was trying to tell you. I know a lot about suboxone and how it works, but am always willing to learn more, so please keep us posted. I wish you the best of luck, you sound like a great person, hope to here from you soon :!: :!: :D :D


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 21, 2010 11:12 am 
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hatmaker says "This forum is for people in recovery - whether it be with the help of suboxone, methadone, or total abstinence. This is not a stopping suboxone forum."

How does he think one would go about making the journey from Suboxone or Methadone to abstinence? You have to stop taking Sub or Methadone to achieve total abstinence, so my question is, why are Dr. Junig and all the moderators so afraid of someone posting about their experience while stopping suboxone. Do they think that we opiate addicts don't know that stopping ANY opiate is going to suck hard? Then, for the people who aren't aware of the wd, do we just not say anything and hope they never find out?? Thats just not right.

It is lack of information or disinformation about Suboxone that is causing all the 'anger' that is witnessed on many other posts. The TRUTH is what needs to be released and talked about with Suboxone because covering up any aspect of its use or disuse is a huge disservice to anyone contemplating taking it to get better. It seems we're all afraid to tell addicts that Suboxone causes withdrawal because we're afraid we'll scare them away, well straight up lying to them is far worse in my book. They need to have every ounce of information available to them up front so as to make a well informed decision.

Suboxone worked great for me. I was able to end a 13 year severe pain pill addiction that I would never have been able to do 'on my own'. The wds were a little longer than I had hoped for, but today I am free of narcotics. I was on Sub for 3 years and quit June 4, 2010. I stepped off at too high a dose and paid the price because I could not find any credible information on the best taper plan and I did not want to suffer wd for months and months on end while I tapered down. All the while my Sub Dr. told me the wd are very mild and last 3 days!!

It is all the misinformation and lack of understanding regarding Suboxone that makes me and others angry, we should not be banning any subject matter from this site that refers to Suboxone because it all goes towards making each and every one us more informed and better educated regarding Suboxone. Isn't that what we should be striving towards to best help anyone who wants end the nightmare of addiction, by providing them with the truth, the whole truth?


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 21, 2010 3:47 pm 
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All Hatmaker was saying is that this forum is not specifically for "stopping suboxone." She was not saying or implying that people can't share their stopping suboxone stories here. All are welcome here - whether you want to stop suboxone, stay on it for life, or anything in between.

In fact, there is an entire section of the forum dedicated to Stopping Suboxone. In that section of the forum you will find many people's taper stories, including mine, which is a 10 page sticky thread right at the top of the index.

I'm sorry that you had a bad experience stopping sub because you couldn't find credible info online about how to stop. We have had several people have good tapering and withdrawal experiences using the liquid taper method, and there are other positive stories from people who have used other taper methods. We also have stories of people who have stopped from higher doses, and another member recently posted her experience stopping by using fentanyl patches and LDN. We also have stories from people who are tapering methadone - either to quit or to switch over to suboxone to finish their taper, or for maintenance.

Dr. Junig, the forum owner, was the one who suggested the liquid taper plan that quite a few of us have had success with, and he has been an advocate both here and on his blog for the need for smaller doses of Suboxone to help people taper successfully.

No one here is trying to supress the truth about what it is like to stop suboxone. If you need help finding any of the taper stories posted here - both positive and negative - please let me know.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 21, 2010 4:35 pm 
Romeo -did you read anything else on this forum besides this thread before you made your condemnation? In additon to the many methods of stopping Sub that DOQ pointed out can be found in the "stopping Suboxone" section, recent topics have also included using temgesic patches to taper off as well as using the 2mg films cut into smaller and smaller sections.
Making the statement that "Dr. Junig and all the moderators are SO afraid of people posting about their experience stopping Suboxone" is as judgemental as it is inaccurate.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 21, 2010 5:51 pm 
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Condemnation is a bit strong, they were intended to be more of observations after reading many posts from various topics. I would guess that I have spent between 12 and 15 hours reading various posts over the past couple of weeks. Certainly not every post, but enough to get the gist of things. Maybe I somehow tuned into all the ones where the person talking about Suboxone wd was getting berated in one fashion or another and I missed all the other posts where they were receiving terrific support, but I kind of doubt it. I understand it is impossible to pick up attitude, inflection, tone of voice from a post, but it sure seemd to me that several people who were talking about wd were pretty much taking it on the chin and I couldn't understand why...except where the reply said 'are you trying to scare people away from Suboxone' (that is paraphrased by the way). Then, today I see where hatmaker types "this is not a stopping suboxone forum" and it seemed strange to me. Why would a moderator say this is not a stopping suboxone forum?? Actually, this forum seems to be much more dedicated to people staying on Suboxone long term to life and that is fine in my book, but there are also many who wish at some point to quit...some sooner rather than later. They could use the respect and tolerance given to those who wish to stay on Sub long term.

You can say what you wish, but there is definitely some bad joo-joo going on around here as far as discussions of Suboxone wd. I would just like to see all topics regarding Suboxone given their due respect by allowing them to be discussed freely.

As far as my wd being harsh, it was probably the best thing for me...4.5 months out and I still can't stand the thought of another opiate entering my body because I know I'll have to do the wd all over again...not an option.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 21, 2010 6:01 pm 
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Quote:
This forum is a place for addicts and for those who love them to discuss addiction, particularly addiction to opiates (pain pills). It is here to discuss symptoms, patterns, consequences, and treatment of opiate dependence. Recognizing that opiate dependence is a potentially fatal disease, we respect all effective treatments for opiate dependence, whether or not the treatment includes buprenorphine or Suboxone. This forum is for people who have made their choice whether it be for Suboxone, for Methadone, or for meetings and no medication.


Like DOQ said, the point I was making is that this is not ONLY a stopping suboxone forum. I'm posting the above paragraph from the index/main page to illustrate what this forum IS for: Opiate addiction and recovery.

It's a shame that haven't witnessed the support that abounds on this forum. No one is ever put down, everyone is respected, and there is no "joo-joo" going on here. Many if not most people here do go off suboxone eventually. If you'll notice the stopping suboxone thread is the busiest and fullest topic here.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 21, 2010 6:40 pm 
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Thank you hatmaker for the courteous reply. I appreciate you taking the time to clear up your prior comments that I mis-understood.

This is one of the better web sites that I have found regarding Suboxone and I would like to see it be the best it can be. Obviously, that can only happen if all serious comments/posts are treated respectfully and I certainly came across more than a few replies that were not, but not the majority.

It seems to be part of my recovery to surf addiciton or suboxone web sites, I don't know if it's the comfort in knowing that I'm not the only one who went or is going through this. I don't know if it's just that I am so familiar with the topic that I enjoy reading about it, maybe it's the kick I get when I hear another person has stopped slamming H or abusing pain pills. Whatever the reason I surf these sites, it seems to help.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 21, 2010 7:38 pm 
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I just created this thread because after coming off Roxicets and going on Suboxone, I've noticed this shit called DUST that I, apparently, have to DUST to remove it. (Why is that, anyway? Why do we "dust" to get rid of dust, exactly? It's STUPID! It should be UNdusting.)


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 21, 2010 10:01 pm 
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LIBRA YOUR AWSOME :!: :!: THANKS FOR BEING PART OF MY RECOVERY PROCESS, YOU ALWAYS MAKE ME LAUGH AND TRUST ME I NEED MORE LAUGHTER IN MY LIFE :!: :!: :lol: :lol:


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 23, 2010 9:20 am 
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Libra wrote:
Oooooh! Wow... Okay... I get it now.

I am in rehab to get off of opiates using Suboxone as an aid, not maintenance. I know that I have a long road ahead of me and that staying OFF opiates will be difficult and I know that I will probably be attending NA meetings the rest of my life. I know all about PAWS (post acute withdrawal syndrome) and that it can hit me even YEARS down the road. I know that relapsing, on average, is very high. However, I do have a TREMENDOUS support system with my friends and family and the people I've met in NA. I'm also in counseling which I will continue until they feel I will be "okay" with just NA. I also know that I will probably have withdrawals even after I taper off the Suboxone.

I know that staying opiate free is going to be difficult. But, I have to believe that I can do it. If I do relapse, I intend to get back ON the wagon ASAP. I do not want to be on opiates anymore, Suboxone or otherwise. I want to be clean and will do whatever is necessary to do so.

I honestly thought that this forum was for people like me who intended to stop using Suboxone, whether it be in a year or two or a month or two.....


Just to be clear, yes, this forum IS, most definitely "FOR YOU" and we are absolutely thrilled to have you here. Your treatment plan doesn't need to be set up in any specific way for you to post here, not at all. It's just that many of us, perhaps even the majority of us, are all opting for long-term and/or indefinite suboxone maintenance. That's what I am doing. It might be an age thing too....I am almost 47 years old. I have advanced HepC, I've been abusing drugs since I was about 15 years old, so I've got over 30 years of hard core drug abuse behind me. Even when I went away to prison, I found ways to get and use drugs. I was heading back down the road of IV Heroin use, had I not found suboxone, so I would not be a very good candidate for a quick detox with suboxone.

Now, based on what you've told us about yourself here, it is possible that this quick detox and off method could work for someone like you, but what you have to be ready to understand and deal with is the fact that once you're off the subs, if you are not plugged in firmly to a 12-step recovery program and/or therapy with a good substance abuse therapist, then you may be putting yourself on a very, very slippery slope......the one that leads to relapse.

Relapse, is, unfortunately, a common occurrence with addicts. I suggest that you explore the life situations that are "triggers" for you with a therapist and work on finding ways to combat those triggers in a healthy way when they happen, and guess what? They are going to happen. Nothing around you is going to change because you got off drugs, what has to change is how you deal with what is around you......even on suboxone, that is a lesson I am working through right now with my therapist. One of my big triggers is work-related stress. I have a very, very stressful job. I run an I.T. department for a $40 million company. I have 6 direct reports, and there are about 37 techs I am responsible for in my department. It can be extremely stressful and demanding, most weeks I put in anywhere from 60 to 70 hours, sometimes more. Before suboxone, my job used to drive me to use. And it even got to a point where I didn't feel like I could even do my job without the drugs.......but suboxone has helped me recognize that I do not need to be high in order to do good work. In fact, the last two years (almost) since getting on suboxone have been my most productive years at work EVER. And I've been with the same company for 11 years now.

So, Libra, YOU (yes, YOU, Libra) have become an important piece in the gigantic puzzle that is my recovery. Your posts are often humorous, but they also very cleverly deliver a valuable message, and one that has resonated with me from the minute you got here. Please keep coming back and sharing your experience with us. Not everyone who posts here is doing "Long term maintenance" on suboxone, so your perspective is very, very valuable to this community and besides, I'm sure I speak for everyone else when I say that we all think you're a very nice person.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 24, 2010 12:39 pm 
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Awww! Thanks Junkie! The whole funny/nice thing is an act, though. I'm actually a raving bitch! LOL! Just ask my co-workers... (I work for a Judge and the clerk's at the courthouse HATE me because I am constantly pointing out their incompetency..... Jesus H. CHRIST! I've never in my life seen so much incompetence in one building in my life! Their collective IQ's wouldn't add up to that of a retarded flea - no offense to the mentally challenged. Or fleas.....)


Seriously... I have a therapist. She's friggin' bonkers. I think she's a good candidate for mental health treatment herself. I'm not EVEN kidding. But, I like her. And she does help me. And I'll probably see her once a week for a very long time. I reckon I like her because we are equally nuts. She called me once at 3:00 in the morning and frantically asked me if I was okay. I answered, "I WAS... until you called and woke me up from like, the best dream ever, you stupid bitch!" She had called the wrong patient. Someone had left her a message and she assumed it was me. Apparently, she has two patients with thick southern drawls. I'm just glad she didn't send the cops and/or emergency services to my house to Baker Act me. That would suck.....

Anyhoo... I had to qualify for the detox/rehab facility that I go to. It's an outpatient program designed for people who can't just take a month off from life to get "better". Besides, who can afford that? I'm not Lindsey Lohan over here. Although if I were, I think I would just continue to take drugs..... (ok, so that was really not funny). Anyhoo, I qualified because my addiction was relatively short... I've only been using opiates in pill form for about 5-6 years. And it didn't get bad until I found an unethical doctor willing to prescribe me hundreds of Roxicets a month. That asshole ain't working anymore, thank God, but the clinic is still there and I'm sure they found an equally unethical doctor to replace Doctor Prescribealot. These clinics are a dime a dozen down here in Oxycodoneville, USA. The DEA has recently cracked down and now it's getting harder and harder to get oxycodone these days. I had a guy calling me that was willing to pay $10 for a Percocet. TEN DOLLARS! For ONE pill! I honestly contemplated becoming a drug cartel, but quickly dismissed the idea because although I have nothing against the gay and lesbian community, I'm not interested in spending my life in six foot by six foot cell with a girlfriend named Bubbie. Solly (as my husband would say... he's Chinese... He says "solly" LOL!)


I like this forum. This is the ONLY forum to which I can say what I want, the way I want. I was actually banned from the last forum I joined. THREE TIMES! LMFAO! Safe to say they didn't like my brand of humor over there. Assholes. Image


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 24, 2010 12:48 pm 
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Sorry to double post, but I also wanted to say.....

Junkie? I'm glad you found Suboxone. It sounds as if it saved your life. I don't give a shit what people say about Suboxone.... I think it's a miracle drug.

I also wanted to thank you for your kind words and welcoming post. Image


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 24, 2010 10:59 pm 
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DOQ what do you mean when you say Dr J the former owner of this website? I have been suppressing alot of comments and concerns lately about suboxone and the choice I made....it has been 17 months now and I don't even want to do the math on what I spent for treatment and medicine with one of the best insurance plans out there but can't use it because the 28 doctors in my area only two take insurance and they have a waiting list.....It will be interesting to see if Dr J is not the owner who is because when I did express certain sentiments in my last post it mysteriously disappeared.......I have recently been dating a RN and went to a barbecue with several ER doctors were present this past weekend. I brought up suboxone with two of them and I will wait to tell you what they had to say but I was shocked and it really made me question what I am doing taking this medand how it is viewed by the medical community. So what gives.....? I talked to my DR who met with RB and they have an opinion about DR J that surpirises me since he is a supporter of this drug. I saw a man flip his car this weekend and was injected throughthe windshield. I stayed with him until police and fire arrived.......he was barely breathing and all I could think was what if that was me.......what kind of pain relief would I get....I was 7 hrs from home......Anyway saw that post and wondered what it meant.....

Jim


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 Post subject: Read the "fine print"
PostPosted: Sun Oct 24, 2010 11:16 pm 
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Actually this is pretty funny ReRaise...

"Dr. Junig, the forum owner"

FORUM owner - not the FORMER owner but the FORUM owner as in the owner of this forum. LOL Well, at least they both start with FOR.

I really would be interested to hear what the ED docs thought - although I can probably guess and it likely won't surprise me - disappoint me yes, but surprise me, no. I still would love to hear it. As for the comments about the current owner of this forum (web site), I can only imagine what a company who has been publicly called on the carpet multiple times by Dr J. would have to say about him. No surprises there either, I'm sure.

Dating an RN huh? I was married to one of those. I'm just sayin.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 24, 2010 11:46 pm 
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guess I did read that wrong..........thought I missed something while away for a little while........good to see that is the same......

At least you are consisitent as I am catching up on post and see you correcting everyone who says something that is not as true or accurate as you would like...........Glad to see you have 1 year on suboxone....thought you would be a little more humble though. But that is just an opinion........we are allowed to have those.

Jim


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 24, 2010 11:53 pm 
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Hey, don't get pissed at me if you can't read! LOL

You of all people should know I'm quite the smart-ass. Being rather sarcastic and comical yourself, I also thought you'd understand. Still, it does suck we one of these things sneaks up and bites us in the ass. :) Don't ya just hate it? But I'm fine with being "one of those". It would not be the first time.

It's all in good fun. Never am I mean spirited in what I write. Hope it doesn't come across that way, because that's not my intention. What fun is life if you can't laugh - including laughing at yourself? I do it all the time. Hell, if you can't laugh at yourself, others will do it for you. Trust me, I make my share of goofs.

Glad to see you are back though. I've actually missed seeing your posts. So... tell us about this new girlfriend - and about your conversation with the docs!


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Fond Du Lac Psychiatry
Dr. Jeffrey Junig, M.D., Ph.D.

  • Board Certified Psychiatrist
  • Asst Clinical Professor, Medical College of Wisconsin

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