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PostPosted: Wed May 05, 2010 12:27 am 
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Sugarcain: I think that I have been pretty fair with you. I have not said much, even though my head has about exploded many times after reading your dribble over the past weeks. However, I was hopeful that you could become a healthy part of our little community here. But at this point I have to ask, what in the hell planet are you living on? Do you actually even believe the things you are saying? If you do, then perhaps you will have little to no trouble in backing up your latest nutty statements.

"Subutex is the most misused opiate in Europe right now."

Can you please provide your source for backing up this statement? Tell me where you have any ounce of proof to back up that this is in fact a true statement. Certainly there must be some source that you can provide.

In referring to the television show, Celebrity Rehab and/or Sober House, you claim:

"People watch these shows for advice."

Do you really think this is the case? I am certain that if you ask anyone in the media they will confirm that the majority of people watch shows like this for one thing - ENTERTAINMENT. If people want advice, they will go to a physician, councilor, addiction specialist - or quite honestly, pretty much anywhere OTHER THAN a reality television show.

Then there is your latest gem, when referring to someone addicted to Methadone who then starts to take Suboxone:

"A week with Suboxone will only make him DOUBLE addicted."

Double addicted? Never mind the concept, can you even provide a source for such a term? Are you really trying to tell us that someone who is addicted to two different "brands" of opiates is something called "double addicted".

Is this what happens when you undergo rapid detox? Did they just remove the opiates from your brain receptors or perhaps actually remove some of the brain cells themselves? Where in the heck are you coming up with all of this? What experience in your life has lead you to actually believe the outlandish things you seem to believe? Oh, wait a minute. I do seem to remember that you are a bar tender. That has to be it. The experts and sources that provide you with this wealth of information can be found on any bar stool. Now, that is something that I can believe. Your source is someone like "Norm" from "Cheers".

I've never been a fan of Star Trek, but please, Beam me up Scotty! Or are we all just being Punked?

Oh, and by the way:

"I think Tom Sizemore is the only one with any chance for sobriety."

A video clip with Jennifer on the Sober House web site is claiming that Tom has already relapsed.

My God, I have a huge headache! I'm sure it must be my Suboxone causing it.


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PostPosted: Wed May 05, 2010 8:37 am 
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Yep. Probably is the Sub causing the headache. I had HORRIBLE migraines on Sub. :(
Why do I have to back my statements up? Yet you can go on and on about Rapid Detox and how it DOESN'T work.....
Where is your proof to back that up?
People DO look up to Dr. Drew. I wasn't saying I did, but there are many people who think he is the know all of addiction watching his shows.


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PostPosted: Wed May 05, 2010 1:01 pm 
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I have not "gone on and on" or even made comments about rapid detox to you. But since you asked:

"The use of general anesthesia for opiate detoxification offers no benefit when compared to two other methods, and is associated with several potentially life-threatening adverse events, according to an article in the August 24/31 issue of JAMA. Results of the JAMA study found that the procedure can lead to risk of death, psychosis and increased stress. Other studies have found other risks including delirium, attempted suicide, abnormal heart rhythm and acute renal failure. The anesthesia method is also prohibitively expensive, with most centers charging between $5,000 and $15,000 for the procedure."

This is one of several studies on the subject. JAMA is the Journal of the American Medical Association. It is one of the most respected medical journals in the world. The study was completed at Columbia University. You can read the study for yourself here:

http://jama.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/full/294/8/903

A second study, this one from the Journal of Substance Abuse, had this to say:

"The second study retrospectively compared 139 anesthesia patients with 87 inpatients detoxified with methadone over a month. The methadone taper group reported nearly twice the rate of sustained opioid abstinence (42% vs 22%) in telephone follow-up after 12 to 18 months."

In other words, 22% of those who did rapid detox were still free of opiates after one year while 42% that used methadone to detox were free of opiates after one year. Bup was not a part of the study. However, this study shows that you would have had twice the chance at success had you not done rapid detox.

So I have provided my proof. Can I assume your's will be forthcoming?


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PostPosted: Fri May 07, 2010 3:12 pm 
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I just wanted to post a quick note that my responses in the first part of this tread came as a result of claims made by sugancain. Unfortunately, most of those comments have been deleted. Hopefully what I wrote still makes sense but I wanted to let everyone know that I didn't just make up the claims I was responding to, or pull them out of thin air. They actually did exist at one point, prior to their removal.

Confused? Yeah, me too. No big deal. In any event, I did find the research studies on rapid detox to be very interesting. I hope others do as well. Perhaps it's my background, but I put much more stock and faith in well done research studies like this than I do in the feelings born out of individual experiences.


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PostPosted: Sat May 08, 2010 8:59 am 
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sugarcain wrote:
Why do I have to back my statements up?


donh, you realize you're just wasting your time trying to convince sugarcain of anything, right?

(edited for clarity - j)


Last edited by junkie781 on Sat May 08, 2010 10:11 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sat May 08, 2010 9:47 am 
I'm pretty sure most of us realized that trying to convince Sugarcain of anything is indeed "a waste of time." However, some of us continued to respond to her nonsense in order to provide the proper 'balance' to the threads she posted on.....not for her benefit, but for all the other readers. Especially those who are weighing opiate addiction treatment options.
Donh did not waste his time providing all that information. It's good, solid and reliable. Unlike the ramblings of an addicted bartender reaching for a quick fix to all her problems. Frankly I believe we've gotten all we need out of Sugarcain's experience. We all reached out, including Dr. Junig, and tried to offer help and support. In return, we got unreliable and sometimes downright false information. It remained obvious throughout that she has been and still is in a tremendous amount of denial and needs more help than Rapid Detox can possibly offer. I hope she gets it.
Thanks, donh, for taking the time and effort to post that great information!


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PostPosted: Sat May 08, 2010 10:10 am 
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setmefree wrote:
I'm pretty sure most of us realized that trying to convince Sugarcain of anything is indeed "a waste of time." However, some of us continued to respond to her nonsense in order to provide the proper 'balance' to the threads she posted on.....not for her benefit, but for all the other readers. Especially those who are weighing opiate addiction treatment options.
Donh did not waste his time providing all that information. It's good, solid and reliable. Unlike the ramblings of an addicted bartender reaching for a quick fix to all her problems. Frankly I believe we've gotten all we need out of Sugarcain's experience. We all reached out, including Dr. Junig, and tried to offer help and support. In return, we got unreliable and sometimes downright false information. It remained obvious throughout that she has been and still is in a tremendous amount of denial and needs more help than Rapid Detox can possibly offer. I hope she gets it.
Thanks, donh, for taking the time and effort to post that great information!


I appreciate his information as well, just to be clear, and I am sorry for not expanding on my comment to make it clear that what I meant was, if donh is trying to convince sugarcain of anything, THAT is a waste of time. Posting valid, factual, empirical evidence on this site is absolutely NOT a waste of time, and I for one, very much appreciate donh's efforts.

I also know that the definition of insanity is repeating the same behavior over and over again and expecting a different result.


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PostPosted: Sat May 08, 2010 10:32 am 
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sugarcain wrote:

"In some countries, such as Finland," the board's 2005 report said, "buprenorphine has become the most important illicitly used substance for opiate addicts; in some illicit markets, it has almost totally replaced heroin."
The fact that buprenorphine costs less than heroin and is more accessible has hastened the development of illegal markets in various countries. Buprenorphine manufactured in India, for example, is smuggled into Nepal and Sri Lanka, as well as Bangladesh, where it is used by 90 percent of the country's intravenous drug users, according to a UN Drug and Crime report last year.

A 2004 report from the U.S. National Drug Intelligence Center lists "lucrative" black markets for Subutex in Britain, Germany and New Zealand."

[b]This article aslo backs up something else I have said on this board that Dr. Junig said was NOT TRUE. That it comes from India!!


Do you know how to read for context? Or did that rapid detox kill more brain cells than it kept? You claimed in the other thread that Bupe was manufactured in India. It is NOT manufactured in India LEGALLY.

Why don't you go find someplace else to troll?


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PostPosted: Sat May 08, 2010 10:36 am 
Sugarcain's most recent post has been taken down. The "source" link she cited is in fact an advertisement for a drug rehab facility. I do not have time to properly research all the claims made right now. Furthermore, I don't think the claims are worth my time to follow up further. What a bunch of BS!

Junkie....thanks for clarifying your earlier comments. I had a feeling that's what you meant.

Sugarcain....You've done it again.


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PostPosted: Sat May 08, 2010 5:39 pm 
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I really appreciate Donh and the others who took the time to post factual evidence to counter Sugar's anti-sub propoganda. It simply blows my mind that some people have so little going on in their lives that they take the time to troll forums just to start problems. Don't get me wrong debate is often times worthy of the time invested but when only one of those involved in the debate is supporting their claims with factual data found in respectable peer reviewed sources the outcome is usually less productive and debate quickly devolves into simple, opinion based argument with no meaningful conclusion ever being arrived at. I really appreciate those who like Donh refused to let themselves be pulled down to the level of "argument" as the individual who initiated the incident intended. Thanks all who took the time and exercised the restraint to stick with factual evidence :)

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Fond Du Lac Psychiatry
Dr. Jeffrey Junig, M.D., Ph.D.

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