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PostPosted: Sat Sep 08, 2012 2:15 pm 
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Hey everyone! I am down to .0625 twice a day and even though there have been some sleepless nights, restless legs, back pain, difficulty in regulating my body temperature so i go from freeezing to sweating profusely all day, and sneezing like 100 times per day, I'm here to tell you that you're not doing to die. I was on 24mg of sub for 5 years and I've been tapering steadily for the last 2+ years. I took my time, yes. And sometims I went too fast before my body could stabilize at each level. I basically did 24-16-12-8-6-5-4-3-2-1-.75-.5-.25-.125. Like three months ago I was still on 3mg a day and now I'm down to .125. I can honestly say it has not been easy and my brain and body are struggling to adjust to being on close to no opiates for the first time in about a decade and a half. (I used heroin for 5 years and then got on subs). My ultimate goal is to be off and maybe face the fact that I will experience some PAWS, but i know that the worst of this ride is over. Being a counselor, I feel like its important for me to continue my journey of recovery at my own pace and to not let others influence my tapering, etc. lots of friends have said "oh my gosh you've been tapering FOREVER! Just stop taking it already." I get the fact that one of my good friends tells me that I'm just teasing my body at this point, and prolonging the crappy feelings, but I want to go slow, make sure I'm stable at each dose, and keep going so when I'm done, I'm really done and I don't need to go back on. I have some realistic fears however, as I am having a major surgery in the next year or so, and the surgeon has already told me that phentanyl and dilaudid and Percs are a definite. I guess I'll just cross that bridge when I come to it.
Heres what has helped me with tapering lately: im not an exerciser, but getting a massage, taking 1am hot baths to calm your legs down, and staying busy (try pinterest ladies) and involved in something is a must. Rolling around in your bed or the couch makes you want to take more sub to feel better- dont do it! Dont let anyone interfere with your plan and just go make some damn brownies or cookies or clean your closet out! don't get me wrong, subs saved my life, but I refuse to continue to allow them to run my life.
Just looking for some support and feedback on the debate over whether or not I'm doing well at .0625 twice a day, or am I just putting my body through an unnecessary roller coaster at this dose!? Also, I know I'm not ready to skip days yet, but I have tried both dosing once per day or twice per day- seems about the same at these lower doses...? Also, if anyone has some tips on cutting the 2mg strips any smaller, I'd love to hear that as well! Thanks for reading!


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2012 11:54 pm 
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It sure sounds like you are doing everything right but I am not the one to give advice on this subject yet. Your story sounds a lot like Laddertippers taper. She went through some discomfort at around the same mg per day. When she finally stopped the worst was already over.

Find her name, click on it and look for her tapering posts. She has been off about a year now so that should give you a shot in the arm.

You're doing great!

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2012 4:12 am 
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Great job! As far as I'm concerned, you are doing everything right! I am following in your footsteps as I am tapering as well. I have heard over and over again that I need to go slowly and listen to my body as I taper. I am trying to do just that and it sounds like that's what you've done too. Thank you for your advice, and good luck with the rest of your taper!

Amy

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2012 7:52 am 
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[font=Comic Sans MS]Hello CounselorInRecovery, I would have to say that you sound great! I don't have any experience in this department either, but who is to say that what you are doing is wrong or right? If it's working for you, that is all that matters. You sound like you are in a good mental space too!

Just keep on doing what you are doing. At the rate you are going, you can definitely beat this! Keep up the good work and keep on posting and letting us know how you are!

Best Wishes!!! :) [/font]

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2012 9:50 am 
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Awesome man it's really good to see you doing well. It gives me some hope for myself that a taper like that can be achieved.

I can understand why some people might think it's teasin your body. But taking your taper down really low and slow gets you better adjusted to the feeling of living without opioids before you pull the training wheels off completely.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2012 3:55 pm 
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WOW, you're down to .125mg!! WOO-HOO!!! I remember when you were stuck around 5mg or so and you were having a bear of time getting any lower.....now look at ya.....you're at .125mg!!!

Your story is a lot like laddertippers. I believe she got down to .0625 per day and jumped from there. As far as people telling you that you're just teasing your body or whatever.....I don't agree. I think you're consistently getting your brain used to lower and lower doses of an opiate and all your hard work now will pay off when you jump. When ladder jumped, she avoided Acute wd entirely, if I'm remembering correctly.

If I were you, I would keep on doing what you're doing because it's gotten you to a very low dose. Let your friends taper and jump off of Suboxone how they want to, and you get off of it how you want to.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2012 7:44 am 
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Thank you all for your positive support and feedback. Romeo: I would now say that I was clueless at 5mg to the reality of tapering. This didn't get really hard until I went under 3mg. Granted, I've sped it up a little now that I can see the 'finish line'. My goal is my birthday - which is in a few weeks, but I know that it may be unrealistic. I have some upcoming drama, however. My sub doctor of 7+ years still thinks, and gives me 24mg/day via 8mg pills. Yes, I have a crap ton of them. I have been trading them for 2mg strips in order to be at my current dose and not have to endure the stress of the liquid taper method, which seems like a pain to me and a bit more complicated. Anyways, I think my urine last month tested negative for Subs, maybe, because they called me the next day and said to come in the following week, free of charge because my doctor wanted to see him. I literally just ignored it. So now I am scheduled for my monthly appointment on the 18th and I'm dreading going in there. Not only because I'm obviously going to have to come clean about everything, but because I'm afraid it will damage our relationship forever. What if I need to get back on in the future for some reason? So do I admit that I've been tapering for like 2 years or just say the last couple months? I am definitely doing ok considering, but will it last? Will the jump off be worse than I can imagine? Who knows... I don't like the uncertainty here. Also, I was reading some other posts about the excessive eating while tapering/jumping and that is me! I quit smoking ciggs last October and I have probably put on like 30+ lbs. I'm tall, so it's not SO bad, but I certainly cannot afford to get any fatter! UGH! Even my fat jeans are tight now! Yuck! But in order to try and do something healthy, I have started on a multi-vitamin, I take B-12 for energy, and I started the L-Tyrosine as well the last few days after reading about it on here. Besides my stomach being livid with these decisions, I think it'll get used to it soon enough. I am struggling to stay hydrated though and drink enough water, which doesn't help the insomnia at night because it adds leg cramps and sore hips and joints to the mix. I just don't want to portray to others that it's unbearable nor impossible. It's very possible if you just stick with it. Just have to make up your mind and don't try to go faster than your body can handle! We have essentially been putting a medication in our bodies daily for so long that it seems silly to think there's some quick fix here. Anyways, enough babbling because I have to get back to work! Thank you all again and please keep posting! Reading the positive things helps as do the tips and tricks!


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2012 12:22 pm 
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Hey CiR,

In your last post, you expressed a lot of fears and I just wanted to let you know that you're certainly not alone in the fears you're having prior to jumping off. You said, "Will the jump off be worse than I can imagine?"....I HIGHLY doubt it will. From all of the stories I've read on here from people who have jumped from where you're at or lower, their wd was really nothing to write home about.

You also said something to the effect of the not knowing is the hardest part. I'm sure many of us can relate to that. Fear of the unknown drives a lot of us batty. Our brains tend to amplify the most unrealistic prospects and then we kinda get locked into that thinking. I believe the reality of your situation will be one where your wd will not be intense at all. I believe you've already put in the hard, hard work during you taper and I also believe your wd will be much less uncomfortable than you're imagining it will be.

Let's say you jumped today....what's the worst that can happen?? Your wd may be more severe than you want, so you get back on a low dose and taper some more. Maybe you try skipping days next? We've had many people on here who after skipping a day here and there realized that their wd was minimal and they just quit altogether. You always have options Bud.

As far as your weight gain, I gained almost 30 pounds during the course of my wd, but I've also lost it all, and then some. I think something you can do for yourself to help you with your wd is exercise. You don't have to go out and buy that crazy P90X program and get all buff and whatnot. Just some simple walking would be a great start. I think you'll be surprised, if you can get into some kind of exercise routine, at how much better you feel. And, once you do some exercise and the wieght starts coming off, you'll feel even better.

If your struggling to stay hydrated, I would suggest Gatorade. Water is great, but adding some Gatorade may help ease some of the symptoms you're feeling at night.

Have you looked into Clonidine (the Blood Pressure medication)? Clonidine is, by FAR, the best thing I took during my wd. It's non-habit forming and it seems to help most everyone who tries it. It basically calms things down and knocks your wd down a peg or two. It also has a sedative effect, which helped me sleep at night.

Bottom line, I think you're doing FANTASTIC and I think you're very, very close to the finish line too!!!

Oh Yeah, keeping your mind busy during wd is very important.....you could always watch those dang horror shows (Romeo *shivers*!! lol) that you're so fond of. Anything to help keep your mind occupied will help a lot too.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2012 1:18 pm 
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Romeo - you make me LOL at work! I assure you that I will never buy P90X nor will I ever be buff. If I'm running, call the cops 'cause something is WRONG! I have NEVER been a physically active person. I tried the walk thing at like 10pm about a week ago. I ended up pulling an all-nighter and going to work like delirious. I literally crawled to my couch, where I still couldn't sleep. I have this 'perfect sit up' contraption hanging in my closet too - bleh! Anyways, I would LOVE me some Clonodine, as I heard it can help with the regulating of the body temperature and stomach situations. How can I go in there next week and 1. tell my doctor I'm on .0625mg twice a day when he is prescribing me 24mg a day and 2. oh, by the way, can I get some Clonodine and maybe some benzos too while you're at it!? LOL! He will have me committed. And not sure if you remember, but this can and may impact my job too! UGHHH! Part of me wants to call and cancel the appointment and just tell them I'm broke, can't afford it, and quit the program. Part of me says "are you nuts!? he's your primary care doctor too" (and technically my boss at an alternate agency)... The tangled webs we weave! So I tried skipping yesterday as a matter of fact. I had CRAZY ENERGY and all my senses were heightened. I get up at 5:30am so by 11:00pm I was kicking the crap out of my couch and decided to take the .0625 mini square. That did nothing. So then I took another one, while telling myself it will get me to where I would have been anyways - NOT THE CASE. I guess letting the level in my blood of subs drop so low was a bad move and I'm paying for it today. Horrible joint pain and sneezing and just uncomfortable in my own skin feeling. Don't get me wrong, I'm at work and functioning and just half-assing all my work. As much as I want to call out sick everyday, I just tell myself that I'm better off around people and that sitting home all day kicking on the couch will just lead to not being able to sleep at night even less than I already to. Strange thing is, when I got home from work yesterday, I actually slept like a baby - deep REM sleep with vivid dreams and all. I haven't had anything but that weird surface sleep in months. I wonder if my brain and body are just screaming for me to PUT DOWN THE SUBS!? Prolonging the inevitable is still a question.. obviously jumping off less and less and less is ultimately easier, but am I just stunting the much needed production of some neuro transmitters!? I wish there was more REAL RESEARCH that we could ACCESS that is DOCUMENTED by REAL and RELIABLE researchers. I should be in a glass tank getting bloodwork for christ's sake! I swear, someone really should be studying me! Some days thinks are all sunshine and rainbows, and some days it's like near suicidal thinking... probably some transference from the work I do, or maybe just some neurotransmitters trying to reconnect.. I guess we will never know! Ok, I babbled on long enough! Hope to hear back from ya'll soon!! :D


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2012 5:17 pm 
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Nice job, Counselorin. I was in the same boat as you a few months ago. I had been at the tail end of a long, slow taper just like you are. I continued my way all the way down to a few micrograms per day, all the while wondering if I was still going to get hit hard with W/D (and PAWS) after the jump. The answer to your question, in my experience, is that if you continue doing what you are doing and go all the way down to where I went to, you will not endure any W/Ds after jumping. I know it's difficult to believe and even though a couple of people told me the same thing prior to my jump, I still braced myself for some seriously rough days. They never came. I'm now on day 52 and I consider myself home free. Opiates are a thing of the past for me. I know that it's not wise to bet on a recovering addict staying clean, but I can say it with all of the confidence in the world. I don't know how I know it, I just know it. I quit smoking in '98 and said I would never touch another cigarette again the rest of my life (and I haven't). Just like I knew that back then, I know today that I will never (recreationally) touch another opiate.

BTW, like you I would dose twice per day. 2 weeks prior to my jump, I believe I was taking about .03 or .04mg per day (i.e. 30 or 40 micrograms per day, split evenly into 2 doses per day). My first dose would be when I woke up and my 2nd dose would be approx 12 hours later. I began to notice that I wasn't waking up feeling like I needed a Sub as bad as usual, so I decided to hold off on taking my morning dose for a couple of hours, just to see how I felt. Well, that couple of hours ended up turning into me skipping my morning dose all together. So all of a sudden & seemingly out of nowhere, I dropped my daily dose in 1/2 and more importantly, became a once per day Sub-doser for the first time ever (after over 4.5 years of using Sub). That was a huge milestone and moved the proverbial finish line to within striking distance. I knew I would be jumping soon after and I was ready for whatever was coming my way. Exactly 2 weeks later (July 25th) I took my last dose of Sub a few hours before going to bed.

To sum the rest of it up... No diarrhea, no chills, no sweats, no RLS, etc... I still had mild insomnia, but I had been dealing with that for a while already because (as you know), tapering very low brings on the insomnia well before jumping. So it won't be anything you're not used to. I did have some anxiety of course, but that was mostly caused by my nervousness of the certain hell I was about to be facing after my jump. Once days 3, 4, etc... rolled around & I was feeling normal still, I began to realize that the taper worked and that I might actually escape with no other difficulties. Though I was ecstatic, I was still cautious because PAWS might end up hitting hard regardless of the fact that there were no W/Ds. Since then, I've noticed no increase in PAWS or depression than I was feeling throughout the last month or two of my taper. As you probably know by now, when tapering that low, it's common to feel sad, down, slightly depressed, a sad song seems sadder than usual, etc... That's your brain already dealing with the PAWS. So instead of hitting you like a Mack truck after jumping, it hits you like a go-kart a month or two before jumping and lasts for a while, but it's mild throughout. I still notice an occasional day like that here & there, but it's honestly not depression. I attribute it to my brain still adjusting and getting back to normal, which I feel is very close at this point (maybe 95% there).

Anyway, I hope my words of encouragement help you out. I know exactly where you are right now & how you're feeling. Trust me when I tell you that you've already put in the hardest of the workload and you don't have much more to go. Just continue dropping to the levels I got down to (or as close as you can get), jump when you're ready, and you won't look back.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2012 9:36 pm 
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Hi CounselorinRecovery, I really like reading your posts. You have a great attitude, a positive outlook, a good personality, and a lot of self-discipline and I really look up to you for all of those things. You are right, it would be really nice if they are doing research on subs. There is a database of free subs somewhere if you participate in the studies, so I know there are at least some on getting of subs - the studies are usually having someone already on subs taper and quit. But not enough research is there for us to look up information yet.

It's really great to hear that your energy and senses are functioning high. How are you doing now? I will say that for RLS what has helped me in the past is a heating pad. You will have to move it around to different parts of your leg every few minutes since it won't cover your whole legs but I find that after 30 minutes or so it can take care of it.

I think it's great you are slowly tapering. You mentioned that you have good days and bad, but I think it is better that you are slowly getting used to the no-sub feeling gradually rather than all at once. I hope that everything goes smooth from here on out.

Also, about your urine sample: Do you give samples every month? If so, maybe your doctor already knows that you have been tapering. If so, it is OK. If it were a problem, he would have said something. I know it would not make much sense, because why would the doctor keep prescribing you the same high dose knowing you are not taking them all? But I will tell you this: I know someone that would bring in someone else's urine for every single appointment. He would drop a tiny piece of sub into the pee to make it positive for buprenorphine. His pee kept coming back with weird things in it like morphine. I told him that maybe the subs have to be metabolized in the body for it to be positive for bupe and that maybe they would show up as other things. Last month, his doctor finally told him that he knew what he was doing for 9 months straight and the DEA is finally cracking down on him and he has one more chance to have clean pee with the correct amount of suboxone in it. Because this happened 9 months in a row and the doctor kept prescribing him 80 mg of suboxone a day, it makes me worry that your doctor could be doing the same thing: knowing that the bupe is very low in your urine, but not saying anything, and continueing with the same large dose. If this were the case, I would not worry about telling him, because he already knows and does not seem to feel the need to make a big deal about it. Of course, I realize that my story about my friend's doc could be extremely rare and he may be some sort of crook-doctor (i mean, i have NEVER heard of anyone else being prescribed 80 mg of sub a day! thats 10 subs!).

Well, tell us how the appointment goes. If anything, I think it will be OK. Your doctor wants you to be healthy (if he is a moral doctor). He would be proud of you for quitting because he would know that he did his job right. You can always say that you would fill the script each month just in case anything went wrong. Even if this would look like you were hoarding (or selling), I don't think you can get into legal trouble. Even though he is your semi-boss, it is OK, because you never had dirty pee, and you won't be in any kind of risk of going to jail or anything.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 01, 2012 10:35 pm 
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Just stopping by to update you guys. So I went in to see my doctor, sweating like you couldn't believe in the waiting room of course. So he FINALLY comes in and says "so you want to be done here huh?" And I can see over his arm into my chart where the urine results are circled and it has "Negative for Suboxone!" circled on the page. I could barely stammer out that yes, I want to be done, and that the cutoff for his test must be fairly high as I'm still on "some" subs. He asked what I was taking and I said "crumbs" which is sort of the truth.. Still on .0625 twice a day, totaling .125 per day. To my surprise he didn't slam me, but instead started this huge explanation of wanting to "keep me as a patient" due to the "numbers" and his license, the Feds, etc. he set me up another appointment for a month, and said that if I change my mind I can come back on without getting bumped off the list. It sounded to me that he was more interested in keeping his numbers in order. Since I also tested negative for all other illicit substances, I thought he would have been happy. Not the case. Then he says something that blew my mind... "To taper properly, the research is showing that at the end the patient is still on 2mg every 5-10 days."
WHAAAAATTT!?
I couldn't believe I was hearing this right... Let me just say that I think that's a BAD idea... And that tapering how most of us are seems a bit more reasonable than a big fat 2mg TEASE every 5-10 days! Insanity- if you ask me...
But, I digress... I am still in the midst of this taper, which I initially planned on ending next week... But I know I may very well will string it out longer in order to avoid any back peddling. At the same time, this week is really stirring up a lot for me. Physically, the sneezing is just normal, the inability to regulate my body temperature and gross sweating is becoming normal, insomnia- also the norm. Some chills and SEVERE headaches combined with some emotional crap has that little devil on my shoulder screaming! I haven't though about using heroin in over 7 years, until the last couple days. I told my coworker today that I would do dope to stop the headache. That's a red flag for me. Part of me is confident, yet part of me thinks maybe I should just stay on like 2mg of Sub just to be out of physical pain and avoid anymore crazy cravings. I can't even watch intervention on TV tonight, which I'm usually ok with- its making me experience some weird cravings. Anyways, in order to combat this, I'm returning to therapy this week to get some additional support. I know it's all the sub getting ripped off my neurotransmitters and I know they are just screaming for the comfort of some type of opiates, but this is getting crazy. Then, at the same time I think, I will NEVER go back on 24mg of sub a day, not even 8mg! I have come WAY too far in this whole thing. It's taken YEARS to get to where I'm at today.
Anyways, thanks for reading you guys and I do truly appreciate your posts. Subitlongtime- I have been meaning to message you about your post, but been very lazy and depressed the last couple weeks. But THANK YOU - sincerely, reading your post a few times has really helped me when I'm getting down about the whole situation. Can't wait to hear from you guys!


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2012 9:09 am 
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Hey CIR, I can totally identify with what you're saying. When I went off Sub I was so focused on getting through the WD that I was unprepared for the desire to use to come back so strongly. And it's really tough when you're feeling shitty from WD to resist that. I ended up using, and now I'm back on Sub. I would seriously consider going back up on your Sub dose if it comes down to either that or using.
Also, maybe the doc is trying to keep you in one of his Sub slots, rather than write you as being off Sub, in case you have any further need for it (which you may). So I think that is a GOOD thing. Also, I doubt he meant take 2mg Sub evert 5-10 days. He must have meant spread out over 5-10 days, which would be 0.2-0.4mg/day. I'm guessing you DID do that as you tapered and you're just past that point now. Please keep updating us on how it's going.
I wish you all the best,
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2012 7:41 pm 
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Counselor well done so far! It's great to hear others tapering and sublitlongtime's post is a great one-thank you!! I'm working my way down as well and at .5mg/day at this point. I think the mental part is every bit as challenging as the physical part of tapering...you don't need me to tell you this, but if you're still thinking about using H then that is discerning.

You mentioned possibly quitting next week, but that you are still suffering from physical discomfort and mental cravings( is it worse than you've experienced in earlier tapers?). How long have you been at .125mg/day? Wondering if you're still stabilizing at that dose or possibly feeling some outside issues. I know you don't want to go backwards, so I'm curious as to why you would consider possibly taking 2mg/day? I now know that 2mg/day is a relatively high dose and seems like much more than you need given the low dose you are on...is some of your physical pain related to a prior injury?

Anyways, please keep it up! I really appreciate the info and am happy to support whatever you decided to do. Wish you the best and keep us updated...


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