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PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2012 4:08 am 
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Hello, I currently take around 15-20 30mg immediate release oxycodone tablets a day and 4-5 80mg oxycontin tablets a day for a total of 900-1000mg of oxycodone a day. Ive been in pain management for about 5 years and im 30 years old Male, 6ft tall and about 150 lbs. Im wondering what dose a doctor may start me at if i decided to go the suboxone route. Im really sick of being a slave to these pills and i cant do anything without them. I cant go on vacation, i cant go anywhere really in fear i may not have pills available. I get a prescription of 240 30mg and 60 80mg a month and it is done in a few days and im forced to spend thousands of dollars obtaining pills until my next doctor visit and i just cant take it anymore. in the past year i have probably spent about 100k on oxy. Its ruining my life and my relationship . Obviously im an addict and i really think i would benefit from suboxone and get my life back. The only thing is i have tried it before and it gives me severe migraines. Is this just my body "lying to itself" because it wants the oxy or is this a normal thing? What do you think is an effective starting dose because i read people starting at 24mg a day and they dont even have a quarter of the habbit that i do im just trying to understand the drug more and the way the dosing typically work. thanks for any and all info.


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2012 4:23 am 
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twelvejewelz wrote:
Hello, I currently take around 15-20 30mg immediate release oxycodone tablets a day and 4-5 80mg oxycontin tablets a day for a total of 900-1000mg of oxycodone a day. Ive been in pain management for about 5 years and im 30 years old Male, 6ft tall and about 150 lbs. Im wondering what dose a doctor may start me at if i decided to go the suboxone route. Im really sick of being a slave to these pills and i cant do anything without them. I cant go on vacation, i cant go anywhere really in fear i may not have pills available. I get a prescription of 240 30mg and 60 80mg a month and it is done in a few days and im forced to spend thousands of dollars obtaining pills until my next doctor visit and i just cant take it anymore. in the past year i have probably spent about 100k on oxy. Its ruining my life and my relationship . Obviously im an addict and i really think i would benefit from suboxone and get my life back. The only thing is i have tried it before and it gives me severe migraines. Is this just my body "lying to itself" because it wants the oxy or is this a normal thing? What do you think is an effective starting dose because i read people starting at 24mg a day and they dont even have a quarter of the habbit that i do im just trying to understand the drug more and the way the dosing typically work. thanks for any and all info.





Hi twelve j, and welcome to the forum.

You are taking quite a bit of narcotics but if you want to get off merry go round...i would suggest suboxone. Perhaps you could get your Dr. to give you subutex (this is what I take) and it does not have the naloxone in it which makes some people have headaches and other side effects. A lot of Dr.'s start you out on 16mg. of sub. I had a 29 year addiction and that is what they started me on. I stayed on 16 for quite some time and now I am taking 8.

If 16mg. does not cover you they will increase your dose to probably 24mg. The sub will stop your withdrawals almost immediately which is a Godsend! You will also have no cravings for your old drug of choice. You will just feel normal and good..no high..just good. Unlike oxy the more bup you take does not do more...so you don't tend to increase your dose and run out before the month is over. Actually with sub less is more...actually works just as well after the initial induction.
My advice is to be completely honest with you sub Dr. and take the med. as directed and you will feel different. Most likely your fear and depression will leave because you will feel good and go to work and not be worried about your job, etc...

I wish you the best of luck...I have been on sub for 2 years and have no plan for getting off anytime soon...

Please let us hear from you to know h ow you are doing...

Slipper

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2012 4:58 am 
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hi and thanks for the info and the welcome! So you are saying most doctors start patients at 16mg a day that would be 2 8mg doses right? So lets say if i woke up tomorrow morning and took an 8mg sub would this work or would i have to take more with the habit i have? I know it is 100% in my best interests to see a doctor but for now i cant and i will be taking them on my own. I planned on waking up tomorrow and starting with 1 8mg strip but i really dont want to feel the withdrawal and im scared that if it dosnt work i obviously wont be able to take the oxys for atleast 24 hours so i will be stuck being sick? Or if it dosnt work should i take a second 8mg? I really want to start in the morning when i wake up as im totally sick of the oxy im over taking them and i am ready to stop NOW. I figure the 8 hours of me sleeping will be enough time because im usually in withdrawal within 2-3 hours of having no pills so 8 hours ill be in full withdrawal. is 8mg enough with the amount of oxy i take?


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2012 5:22 am 
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does the habit not matter i dont understand the ceiling thing? so someone that takes 120mg oxy a day can take an 8mg sub and someone that takes 1000mg oxy a day can take an 8mg sub and it will work the same stopping the withdrawal?


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2012 2:20 pm 
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Hi Twelve,

I was taking almost exactly the same amount of groovers as you.. Crazy huh? Anyway, I was put on 16 MG (2 strips) to start.. After a week on 16 I guess either my body told me I needed more or my addict ways kicked in and I started needing more.. Weird that it happened a week after I was already taking them, I know, but I ended up taking as many as 4 strips a day for the next 10 days.. Obviously I ran out early.. Thank god my dr was cool.. He called me in some to get me to my next appointment.. For the next 2 months he prescribed me 2 a day..

The first month I stuck to it and took exactly what was prescribed..The 2nd month I was actually able to take less.. That was a miracle for me- never did that before (took less) lol.. Now he prescribes me 1 & a half a day but I only take 1 so I would imagine he'll drop me even lower.. I started the subs at the end of January..

Everyone is different, but our habits were similar and I was prescribed 16 MG per day and outside of that 10 day period that was fine for me.. Good Luck man- I didn't think I'd ever make it out alive but the subs have saved me and now there's not just hope, there's life- actual LIFE...


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2012 4:50 pm 
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My personal opinion if you truly are taking that much oxy a day i truly think u might want to look into methadone first. I was taking 300mgs of oxy ocs and 1200 mig of fentora and subs didnt do anything for my pain. Why methadone has saved my life and gave me a second chance.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2012 5:53 pm 
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There is no set dose, regardless of your habit. Your dose will depend on alot of different factors, not just how much you used. Some do well on 16mg, others need up to 32mg, some even do okay on 8mg a day. Every single person is different and your dose depends on your body. Someone with the same habit you have might do okay on 16mg a day but you might not, you might need 24mg a day. Im not saying you will Im just giving you an example. The best way to do what you are trying to do, I would say anyway is to wait till you're in withdrawal and take 4mg, wait about an hour and if you still feel withdrawal or cravings then take another 2mg, wait an hour and so on. The best dose for you is what takes care of YOUR withdrawal and cravings and it will be different for everyone. You cant go off of what dose someone else takes because your body is different then theirs and chances are you will need a different dose. Start out with 4mg then wait and if you need more take a little more till you feel okay..once you feel okay, you'll know what your dose is. Good Luck and keep us posted.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2012 5:53 pm 
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You need to read up on precipitated withdrawal, you have to wait awhile to take the Sub otherwise you will get really sick from what I hear. You will have to feel some withdrawal before you take the Suboxone. I really think you should do this with a doctor by the way. I cannot answer you dosing question because my tolerance never got that high.


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2012 9:52 pm 
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ok so i woke up this morning of 9 hours of sleep. so 10 hours no oxy and i was in full withdrawal couldnt get out of bed sick. i took an 8mg strip of sub and within 15 minutes i was DEATHLY sick like i was on day 3 of withdrawal with no oxy sorry for gross talk(diareah, vomit diareah, vomit, etc... Shakes dripping sweat but goose bumps cold sweats and all. I couldnt believe it because last time i tried subs they just stopped my withdrawal and i felt normal. Sooo i waited a half hour to see if i felt better and i didnt so i took another 8mg then waited a half hour and was still sick legs kicking throwing up and the works. So i took 2 10mg valium and another 8mg and 5 hours later im feeling alot better right now. still sneezing uncontrolably and legs still cramped is this normal or should i take another one? I dont want to be on subs if my legs and body are going to hurt


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2012 11:59 pm 
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Oh Lord, you did it all wrong and exactly what doctors stress NOT to do. Bupe is much stronger than oxi, morphine, etc. it has a super high affinity for the mu receptor in your brain. When you took the Suboxone this morning, the subs basically kicked all of the oxi off the the receptors at one time..sending you into the worst withdrawal ever..which is called "precipitated withdrawal". The manufacture, doctors, users, etc all say NEVEr take suboxone until you are in full hardcore withdraw from other opioids (which is 12-24 hours minimum,). Had you takes the subs at the correct time, you would have felt almost instant relief from the oxi withdraws and started feeling normal! Please do no judge suboxone based on your horrible reaction. See a doctor, so some research (not just listen to a couple people on a forum) and do it right..it will change your life...safe your life and about $95,000 per year! God bless


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2012 12:49 am 
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Tndb is right. This is why people advise others to do this with the guidance of a medical doctor. You did not wait the appropriate amount of time to be in withdrawals and you went into precipitated withdrawals, as has already been said. As you're doing now, just keep pushing through it and taking the sub though, you'll eventually get past it and feel better. It'll take a few days, but you'll stabilize. Then you'll have to ascertain what dose you'll need. But because of this little fiasco, you probably won't stabilize for a while. I could be a week or two before you feel completely fine again, but I'm no doctor, remember that. I'm just saying that based on hearing others' experiences on here for 3 years.

I wish I had gotten to your post sooner, I would have told you to wait longer and given you to link to the COWS sheet to help you to wait long enough before inducing on suboxone. Oh well, too late now.

This will hopefully help others who are reading this to not make the same mistake you have, unfortunately. I hope you get to feeling better very soon.

Once you're dosing at least 8 mg a day, you shouldn't need to take it more than once daily, as the half-life on average is 37 hours. Just FYI.

Feel free to ask more questions and we'll do our best to answer them for you. And read up on as much of the forum threads as you can, you'll learn a heck of a lot about suboxone on your own just doing that.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2012 11:29 am 
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twelvejewelz wrote:
Hello, I currently take around 15-20 30mg immediate release oxycodone tablets a day and 4-5 80mg oxycontin tablets a day for a total of 900-1000mg of oxycodone a day. Ive been in pain management for about 5 years and im 30 years old Male, 6ft tall and about 150 lbs. Im wondering what dose a doctor may start me at if i decided to go the suboxone route. Im really sick of being a slave to these pills and i cant do anything without them. I cant go on vacation, i cant go anywhere really in fear i may not have pills available. I get a prescription of 240 30mg and 60 80mg a month and it is done in a few days and im forced to spend thousands of dollars obtaining pills until my next doctor visit and i just cant take it anymore. in the past year i have probably spent about 100k on oxy. Its ruining my life and my relationship . Obviously im an addict and i really think i would benefit from suboxone and get my life back. The only thing is i have tried it before and it gives me severe migraines. Is this just my body "lying to itself" because it wants the oxy or is this a normal thing? What do you think is an effective starting dose because i read people starting at 24mg a day and they dont even have a quarter of the habbit that i do im just trying to understand the drug more and the way the dosing typically work. thanks for any and all info.







Just wondering how you are feeling now....I should have warned you about the precipitated withdrawal and needing to wait about 24 hrs before beginning suboxone. I hope you are better now and the sub is working for you. I would suggest, that when you can, you should get a sub Dr. and it will save you money and take the risk away from getting it on the street,
..that is your business, however, just a suggestion. Getting sober includes getting honest, and doing away with the way we did things in the past....thus the Dr. would be a better solution.

I hope you are on the sub now and off your doc. You will feel so much better..be able to go places and take trips without worrying about running out of pills...If we ever took a vacation I always had to scramble to get enough drugs for the trip and would still always run out and be sick and ruin every vacation we ever took. I can remember we went to Hawaii..for us, a trip of a lifetime and I ran out of my drugs...I was in a foul mood from then on not enjoying anything..just wanting my drugs...My husband later said it was the worst trip of his life....I felt so guilty for destroying that trip for him because of my stupid addiction...it always ruined everything we did...it is a wonder he has stayed with me through all of this 29 year addiction shit...he is a good man and he must love me because i am no glamour queen. I do feel bad because I have hurt him so...(long long story)....now that I am on bup...he is so happy to have his wife back...things are so much better here...
I hope it can work out for you like it did for me...I am so much happier...no having to chase drugs every single day.

Please let us hear how you are doing

Slipper

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2012 11:44 am 
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wrong topic


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2012 3:02 pm 
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i am feeling ok now. i did take a 30mg oxy lastnight hoping it would stop my body from hurting but it didnt. I also took a few aleve and it is useless. Im not sure if i should take the sub now today because i took that 30 lastnight? i cant go to a sub doctor right now so i have to do this on my own for the time being(personal reasons).My girlfriend of 5 years and my family dont know i am on painkillers either and they have not known for years. I did wait about 9 hours before i took the first sub i figured that would be long enough because with the amount of oxy i take i am withdrawing 3 hours with no pills so 9 hours im already sick i figured it would be long enough i guess i was wrong. If i waited 24 hours i would have been so sick and that is the reason i have not stopped the pills to begin with is because i cant deal with the sickness. About 6 years ago i kicked the pills cold turkey and it was the worst experience of my life. i was clean for 6 months and then slowly went back to them because of my injuries and all the pain im constantly in. The withdrawal yesterday from taking the sub was worse than when i kicked cold turkey i have never felt anything like that in my life and i was contemplating calling an ambulance. Should i take the sub right now or is it going to do that to me again?Im not sick at all right now my body is alittle cramped thats about it.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2012 3:45 pm 
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twelvejewelz wrote:
i am feeling ok now. i did take a 30mg oxy lastnight hoping it would stop my body from hurting but it didnt. I also took a few aleve and it is useless. Im not sure if i should take the sub now today because i took that 30 lastnight? i cant go to a sub doctor right now so i have to do this on my own for the time being(personal reasons).My girlfriend of 5 years and my family dont know i am on painkillers either and they have not known for years. I did wait about 9 hours before i took the first sub i figured that would be long enough because with the amount of oxy i take i am withdrawing 3 hours with no pills so 9 hours im already sick i figured it would be long enough i guess i was wrong. If i waited 24 hours i would have been so sick and that is the reason i have not stopped the pills to begin with is because i cant deal with the sickness. About 6 years ago i kicked the pills cold turkey and it was the worst experience of my life. i was clean for 6 months and then slowly went back to them because of my injuries and all the pain im constantly in. The withdrawal yesterday from taking the sub was worse than when i kicked cold turkey i have never felt anything like that in my life and i was contemplating calling an ambulance. Should i take the sub right now or is it going to do that to me again?Im not sick at all right now my body is alittle cramped thats about it.


Again, read about Suboxone Induced Precipitated Withdrawal. Not trying to be a jerk, but we are not medical doctors here, just people on sub and former users. You very likely have to wait much longer to take the Suboxone. None of us can tell you when it is appropriate and this is why we say to go see a doctor.

IMO, if you want to really get clean you are going to have to talk to your loved ones. Very few people can do it without support. If you really want to quit and are using Suboxone to help then they hopefully would understand.

Best of luck to you.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2012 5:22 pm 
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stephent wrote:

IMO, if you want to really get clean you are going to have to talk to your loved ones. Very few people can do it without support. If you really want to quit and are using Suboxone to help then they hopefully would understand.

Best of luck to you.


I understand what Stephent is saying, but I'll respectfully disagree.. I promise you there isn't a person on this earth that wants to stay clean MORE than me and I haven't told my family either- and probably won't anytime soon.. If you're saying the chances of success are higher for those who can tell their loved ones I'll buy that, but sometimes that just isn't the hand we've been dealt.. Not being able to tell anyone at the moment is sometimes the reality.. You get the support where you can- for many people it's here.. But I do understand your point about having a better shot at success Stephen, and it's a fair one..

As far as your withdrawals go twelve, you're gonna have to wait it out and suffer.. Everyone's different so the people that are telling you we can't give you answers are correct.. I experienced PWD, twice actually, and it didn't last days or anything.. I understand you took that 30 and now you're wondering if you have to start over.. That's tough to say- only you know.. Try taking your last DOC in the afternoon and then waiting till morning to see how you feel.. That's what worked for me- but everyone is different.. Wait it out as long as you can and then try


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2012 5:43 pm 
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Trust me i really want to get clean but i cant tell my family and i cant tell my girl its just not an option. Ive been in and out of rehab since i was 12 years old and its really just not an option. I was always self medicating myself from underlying anxiety issues that i have and then when i got in 3 car accidents, got hit by a car crossing the street, got assaulted with permanent injuries , i have arthritis and degenerative bone disease i got addicted to the pain killers. My body has taken a BEATING beyond peoples wildest dreams and the pain killers worked 2 fold, 1 they stopped all the pain im in and 2 they stopped my anxiety(go figure). But i want to get clean more than anything but i cant tell my family and my girl will leave me if she thinks i got back on them.

Now what im thinking is that since the sub have such a strong half life i should be fine to take them today because the 30mg didnt even really make it to my receptors since i took 3 8mg yesterday. Any thoughts on that?

and thanks everyone for the help, just because i dont comment back to each post dosnt mean im not reading them all and taking them all in and appreciating them it would just take forever to quote each one :)


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2012 6:30 pm 
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In my non-medical opinion, I think that 30 mg you took probably didn't get past the suboxone you took.

I suggest you go to Dr. Junig's blog, Suboxone TalkZone (like at the top of the page), and read his entries on precipitated withdrawals. Because what you'll get from us is each of our take on what we've read from him and elsewhere, because in reality, you could do one of two things: continue with the sub and you might be sick a bit longer before you stabilize (or you might be fine); or you could wait, go back into full withdrawals, and try to induce again, waiting long enough this time.

Read up on it and then you'll be better informed to make the decision on your own. Good luck to you.

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 21, 2012 12:01 am 
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twelvejewelz wrote:
Trust me i really want to get clean but i cant tell my family and i cant tell my girl its just not an option. Ive been in and out of rehab since i was 12 years old and its really just not an option. I was always self medicating myself from underlying anxiety issues that i have and then when i got in 3 car accidents, got hit by a car crossing the street, got assaulted with permanent injuries , i have arthritis and degenerative bone disease i got addicted to the pain killers. My body has taken a BEATING beyond peoples wildest dreams and the pain killers worked 2 fold, 1 they stopped all the pain im in and 2 they stopped my anxiety(go figure). But i want to get clean more than anything but i cant tell my family and my girl will leave me if she thinks i got back on them.

Now what im thinking is that since the sub have such a strong half life i should be fine to take them today because the 30mg didnt even really make it to my receptors since i took 3 8mg yesterday. Any thoughts on that?

and thanks everyone for the help, just because i dont comment back to each post dosnt mean im not reading them all and taking them all in and appreciating them it would just take forever to quote each one :)


I'd suggest maybe doing some research on what buprenorphine is, and how it works. Dr J's Suboxone Talkzone is a good place to start.

Here is a good image that sums up what's going on in your brain when you take agonists like Oxy, and a partial-agonist like Sub:

Image

The main thing to remember is Sub has a HIGHER affinity to receptors than the agonists. When you take Sub when there's already Oxy in your system, all the Oxy gets booted off the receptors and replaced with the Sub. But because Sub is only a partial-agonist (ie it has significantly less opioid effect than oxy), you go into intense "precipitated withdrawal".

Also do a search and read up about the ceiling effect. It seems like you are taking more and more Sub to try and alleviate your cravings, when in reality you've no doubt already exceeded your ceiling effect. ie there is little point in taking more Sub over 16mg's.


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 21, 2012 5:41 am 
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EEEK - I can't see it, TJ - Make it bigger!! HA HA HA.

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