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 Post subject: Dosing 1x a day or 2?
PostPosted: Wed Mar 06, 2013 9:49 am 
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Hi, I have posted before and frustratingly enough I find myself still stuck at 1mg on Sub.

I started viewing other forums and went back to the first website (different than this one) that helped me taper from 8mg to where I am now - 1mg.

I found someone there giving me assistance (writing in coaching me down) who has been off of Sub some time. The first thing she is having me do is go from dosing twice a day (for me, I was dosing .5 at 4:00am every morning then .5 again around noon (ish) time frame). The reason my first dose was so early is because I would wake up at 4 and have trouble falling asleep. So I would dose then..gives the sub time to kick in..so by 6:00am I get up and ready to go.

I was told that is bad habit. I am training my body to get up on that "juice"..as well as getting through my day looking for those extra doses. I have moved to 1x a day now since last Tuesday and although it has allowed me the ability to face my mornings now completely in withdrawal till I take that first dose it remains hard for me. After I dose I am much better (of course) but then around 9:00pm I feel sweaty/cold again but I can fall asleep later (atleast for now).

Does anyone have any experience dosing twice a day to 1x day? I am still struggling with this 1x a day but I do see positives. I am now stretching the dose from 4:00am to 9:30 (then taking the entire 1mg) at that time. My mornings are not good though. I wake up weak, sweaty/cold, irritable, foggy. I usually do a 4mile hike every morning (when I was on the twice a day) but now, I am faced to do the hike without any sub in my system at since the day before. Since the 1x a day switch, I actually did successfully get my hike (4 mile walk with my dog every morning) without the sub a couple times but noticed I have been circling back more and more early - hense my workout is being sabatoged more and more. Yesterday, I decided to just wait later and walk after I dosed at 9:30. The other gal (helping me on the other forum) says I need to force myself to walk before because it helps break bad habit of only doing certain things on the dose and forces my own endorphins. I agree with what she is saying (dont disagree) but this is increasingly hard for me. Will the mornings get better? If I do walk later (keep dosing at 9:30am - btw, I tried to stretch that even later in day since I am dosing 1x a day but that seems to be the latest I can stretch too each morning)... I find myself now, choosing to wait to hike later.

It has been 6 days on 1x a day..I dread my mornings and walking before I dose I am freezing every morning (hot/sweaty/cold) Doesnt help right now it is dead winter here so makes my mornings more intense. Very cold here where I live.

Anyway, I have read peeps are fine dosing twice a day ..then just reducing down.

Just like to see different opinions/experiences on this?

When I was dosing twice a day, I was able to get myself down to .6 at one time (before I went back to the other site) but then had one night where I decided to take a little more - I felt my dosing wasnt even and felt I may have taken too little..ended up going back to 1mg all over again. So I re stabilized at 1mg to start again. That is where I found that other site helping.

No offense to this site, but not too many people respond.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 08, 2013 1:28 am 
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Hi Karen. You're asking a pretty specific question and one that I don't have experience with. I have always dosed 1X per day. I take my 2 mg around 4pm every day. I have noticed that I start to feel a little edgy and yawny when it's been 24 hours since my last dose. I don't yet have experience at 1 mg, but I hope to be there soon.

I think that your mentor is bringing up great points. Breaking the habit of when you dose is very hard. I think you may just have to power through the next few weeks until your body is used to one dose a day.

BTW, how long have you been at 1 mg? I drop as soon as I've been stable on a new dose for a couple of weeks.

Sorry I don't have more answers for you.

Amy

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 10, 2013 9:51 am 
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Hi Amy, wow, you are the ONLY one that ever answers my questions. THANK YOU. Well, Hopespring was very nice helping me too when I was attempting the liquid.

I actually gave up on the 1x a day. It was not working. I found myself too uncomfortable and craving another dose which would make me dosing over 1mg if I gave in. When I was on twice a day I was able to sustain the 1mg with minimal cravings. So for me, the 1x a day was too much temptation and too much adjustment.

I have been on 1mg for about a year.

If you dont mind me asking, what is your schedule right now? Are you using the films or tablets?

Just curious.

Thanks again for your support.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 10, 2013 2:18 pm 
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I agree that it's a good idea to break addictive behaviors like setting up dosing times to "feel" something from your Sub dose. I'm not sure that's really what you've been doing though. It sounds more to me like its an issue of keeping yourself out of withdrawal, which in my opinion, is fine. Most people do go to split doses once they get to one milligram or less a day. Even Dr. junig agrees with that practice. So if I were you, I'd quit worrying about that.
It sounds to me like the bigger issue is that you've been at 1mg/day for an entire year and can't seem to get stabilized at that dose. That shouldn't be happening unless you're spiking your dose sometimes or something. By now, your body should be completely adjusted to that dose and you shouldn't be having withdrawal symptoms.
If your goal is to get your dose lower and eventually get off Sub completely, I'd recommend doing whatever you need to do to get stabilized at 1mg before trying to go lower. Even if you have to split it to 3 doses a day, it's better than spiking. If you can't get to the point of no wd at 1mg, you're not going to tolerate going lower or coming off very well.
Just my two cents.


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 Post subject: Stuck
PostPosted: Sun Mar 10, 2013 3:21 pm 
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Hi Karen,

For one, I apologize for the lack of response from this forum. Sometimes a post will get a ton of posts back and other times it sits in cyberspace forever. We try not to let that happen so I hope your experience here again will be a positive one.

Amy asked the same question I was going to ask. Then Whammy, you hit us with being on 1 mg for a year. So you've been okay when you split it, but not when you take it all at once? That's an easy answer because we always say to do what your body tells you. For me it was no problem dosing once a day at 1 mg. Unfortunately, I never got below that so my lack of knowledge is not going to help you.

Maybe start tapering it down very slowly like you said you did before and see where that gets you. I don't want to sabotage your mentors advice so take mine with a grain of salt. It does appear you are stuck and won't get down further w/o some discomfort. That decision is up to you. A part of me is saying to just jump from the 1 mg and get it over with as soon as possible. That's easy for me to say as I am not you. I guess it'll be between you and your mentor on how best to get over the hump. She's saying one thing and we're saying another. I would tend to listen to her mostly because she is off it herself...yes?

So I'm going with BB and saying to keep dosing twice and taper it down very slowly from there. The ultimate decision is up to you.

You sure are trying hard and for that I take my hat off to you.

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 10, 2013 5:10 pm 
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Hello,

There is a point somewhere in tapering when the sub is going to start wearing off noticeably after 6-8 hours. For me, I was fine until i got to about .75mg/day and then found that splitting my dose into 3 parts worked best. I tried 2 per day, but 3 was much better. With 3x per day I feel the same all the time. With 2 per day my dose was starting to wear off by the second dose and I could feel it 'pick me up' and I didn't like dealing with that whole thing.

I learned this from dr. Junigs article here, check it out and good luck!

http://suboxonetalkzone.com/stopping-suboxone/

Quote:
Dr Junig article:

"As the dose is lowered, the effects of buprenorphine become shorter in duration. So the person tapering buprenorphine need to not only take smaller amounts each day, but must also divide that daily amount into two, then three, then maybe even four doses to avoid withdrawal symptoms at the end of the dosing interval."


-glen b


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Mar 10, 2013 6:22 pm 
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Wow...THANK YOU all so very much. Amy, your post triggered a brainstorm of great support! thanks again to you for helping.

Sorry, can't remember everyone's name but to the poster who made the point of avoiding withdrawal to just feeling more during the day..I am definitely just leveling my dose, not trying to dose up. Not on purpose anyway.

Anyway, the tip on even going 3x to 4 x a day I actually believe that to be great advice for me.

That gal on the other thread (my online mentor) only knew 1x a day and for some reason has disappeared from my thread. I was posting daily my dosing but havent heard from her in over a week? Anyway, Im just going to pray, read through success stories (they help) and allow God to help me do what is best (it is true we all have our own program, some more similar but what ever works is what works)?. Dr. Jung's blurb that Glenn posted is so true for me. I know I am at the same dose as the 1x a day now...but feel so much better. To me..this can only help as I get lower and lower as it will be less shock to my system if I keep the drug level in my bloodstream as I drop. Less shock to any one time of day ..almost like tricking my body to not miss it so much.

Thank you

I'll keep everyone posted how I do (if interested). I wont post for awhile till I have something to show for it..but will when I get to .5 (ish) as that is my goal right now. Thanks for listening and sharing.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 10, 2013 7:28 pm 
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Karen2013 wrote:
To me..this can only help as I get lower and lower as it will be less shock to my system if I keep the drug level in my bloodstream as I drop. Less shock to any one time of day ..almost like tricking my body to not miss it so much.


That is exactly my plan, and it works as long as you stay on a dose long enough, are able to sleep easily etc..


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 10, 2013 7:57 pm 
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THANK YOU Glen so much!!!


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 10, 2013 8:00 pm 
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Glen Bee, quick question..do you mind sharing your actual dosing schedule on the .75 (you say splitting 3 x a day helped you much more). Just curious how much you took each dose and when? did you evenly split 3 ways..? were you about 8 hours a part or less?


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 10, 2013 9:51 pm 
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Karen, thanks for clarifying that you are just trying to level off/avoid withdrawal. That being the case just reinforces my thought that there's absolutely no reason to suffer with once a day dosing!
You mentioned prayer and God, so I'm going to recommend a book for you which I believe will help you. Joyce Meyer's "The Battlefield of the Mind."
While it is not about addiction/recovery, I've still found it to be very practical and useful in helping with the aspects of what we're going through.
Don't ever give up! I've slipped and fallen many times along the way. Despite that, I refuse to give up on becoming completely drug free!


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 10, 2013 10:46 pm 
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Karen2013 wrote:
Glen Bee, quick question..do you mind sharing your actual dosing schedule on the .75 (you say splitting 3 x a day helped you much more). Just curious how much you took each dose and when? did you evenly split 3 ways..? were you about 8 hours a part or less?


Yes, I divide the given dose into 3 equal parts mostly. I always take every 8 hours. So .75mg was .25mg 3x per day

i think its best to do equal parts. i did .125/.25/.125 for a while at .5mg per day. i looked forward to the .25mg. you know what i mean? you have to be honest with yourself and also not too hard on yourself either. it's easy for me to even take an extra .125 now and it really effects me so i have to really try and only take as much bupe as i need to just "feel normal". thats good practice for living totally sub free as well.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 11, 2013 8:08 am 
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BB, thank you for your support and recommendation of book. I know Joyce Meyer (have listened to her on TV a few times). I definitely will get that book. I love books that speak truth. Im not much a fiction person. So thank you.

Glen, thanks for your reply. I didnt think I would have so many questions, sorry. If you dont mind one more. One of my toughest challenges has been getting my doses more even as I go below 1mg. Y

Do you mind sharing how you get your doses accurate sizing and which method you use to do so? In other words, pills vs. film, do you use box cutter/sewing memory mat to size down or do you use the crushing or liquid method to size?

If you use film, how do you get those small sizes of .2, etc? I am horrid at match. The best I can do when I start to drop is I take a little sliver off the ends of my 4 quarter pieces of a 2mg film. 4 pieces (to me) equate to .5, then I take what I consider a reasonable .1 or .2 sliver using an exacto knife. I keep doing alittle more every 5 days or so (atleast this is my plan). My issue last time is I switched mid way to the hole punch thinking I was about ready for those tiny pieces (they are exact each time) but I dont think those are anything close to.3 like the original poster said. I can punch 6 of those in a 2mg film but there is way too much left over (around the holes and inbetween) to equate to .3. What happened is about 2 days in I felt real withdrawal..like huge difference. I felt I didnt take the right dose (took too much off). Then I got frustrated on what the right dose was and ended up dosing back up then leveled again at 1mg. I would like to keep my doses consistent but because that film is not an exact inch (and I can't figure out centimeters) ..and my eyes are so bad..it really sucks trying to get those more even each cut.

Any tips or advice? Thanks so much. Also, how long did you tend to stay at each drop? Thanks.


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 Post subject: Cutting film
PostPosted: Mon Mar 11, 2013 6:05 pm 
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Hi Karen,

Yes I use the film too.  I use a graphic design cutting mat, a see thru grid ruler and a regular sharp razor blade to help me gauge the cuts.  I cut the film in half, then again, then again etc...  It's a pain but here is this kicker: I only have 8mg films!  a .125mg is 1/64th of an 8mg film.  That same size on a 2mg film would be .06mg.  It's tiny, I am using a magnifying glass now.  

To get a .125 piece on a 2mg film you only need to cut the film 4 times.  

If we keep cutting the 2mg film in half we get: 2mg, 1mg, .5mg, .25mg, .125mg, .075mg, .038mg, .019mg and so on 

Its easier for me to think about it as micrograms.   2mg is 2000 micrograms so .125 is 125 micrograms,  .075 is 75 micrograms and so on...   

Sorry if that is too simple, I'm not great at math either I just use the calculator on my phone.  

As far as how much I drop, I just kind of flirt with my next dose gradually after a few weeks (up to a month or more) on a dose.  Say I want to go from .5mg to .375mg- I will usually take .375 twice a week, then move in on it more and more. 3x a week and then every other day and then make the switch.  I might try to go faster if I feel up to it and often do but that's what works for me.  Being very patient with it is what has also been working for me so far... 


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 11, 2013 7:46 pm 
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Hi Glen Bee you were not too simple at all. I NEED simple. That is great.

I will save this and I also like your idea of not dropping all at once..but "flirting" with the drop maybe twice a week then doing it more consistently - never thought of that? For me it may work best to just do it and if it doesnt feel right after a day or so, then maybe go back to normal..try again (try it that way)?

Do you tend to drop 50% with every drop? You mention .5, .25, .125...that is easy math wise but I thought once I go below 1mg I may try only dropping .05 every drop to ease me into it. I used to drop 25% each time but now I feel even if just a tiny difference..better for me once you start getting into the doses that last less and less a 24hr period.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 15, 2013 2:09 am 
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Hi Karen,

No I do not drop 50%, no way! i like to cut the film in half over and over to roughly have a bunch of equal parts that i know how much they are. .125, .25, .5 etc...

I try to use all my meds and not have any wasted...

When I go every other day like 1mg/.75mg/1mg/.75mg etc.. , my dose averages out to somewhere in between (like .88mg i think) in this example. this way i dont have to get crazy cutting these things any more than I already do!

if i alternate for 2 weeks then i have been on .88mg for 2 weeks.

Hows it going?

gb


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 15, 2013 8:59 am 
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Hi Glen, thanks for replying. I am dosing down from 1mg today to .8. I thought I would start there.
Since I dose twice a day, I take .4 in morning and .4 at night. Ill keep you posted as I get more into my drops.

Anyway, would you mind sharing with me your recommendation to dropping schedule based on how you do it? I really am interested in the way you "stagger" your doses but still confused to how to actually put that in action as a "system" ? Starting Saturday as an example - Sat (Satur .3, .3, .3, then Sunday, take XXXX, etc.)?


I want to keep my dosing even. So if I am splitting twice a day, I would prefer my two doses being the same. If I dose 3 times a day same thing. I heard (and I actually agree) that this is best as opposed to taking .25 in am and .5 in afternoon. I think it best to keep everything even, do you agree?


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 15, 2013 7:26 pm 
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I only dose once daily, for the reason tha split dosing tends to extend the half-life, thus makes syomtoms last longer, this verified by my doctor and the several people who tried split and dosing once.

If split dosing helps the issues of sleep, symptoms etc then it must be that the half life is extending, anything that helps symptoms will always give some side-affects/WDs too, so for this very reason am sticking to once dosing.

If there was no difference then surely people wont have issues/sympstoms, butif the do and split dosing works then the long term affects (half life extension/wds) will be the result, and the last thing I want is long WDs just becase I extended the half life by split dosing..Don't forget sub is potent at low doses...So far I cant see any difference between a withdrawal of a dose nor a taper. Seems most people who jump albeit high or low dose or taper seem to have same symtpoms and the same duration too.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 19, 2013 10:39 am 
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Hey, I have actually done both methods and can tell you from experience that it is not making it harder but actually (for me) easier to taper. The most important goal for all of us is to get off and get used to being off (helping our bodies adjust to taking less and less and also helping our bodies get used to the less and less). People sometimes dont realize the lower you get the affect of the drug in "duration" lessons. For me at 1mg..I can actually feel the drop more around 13 hours. At 1x a day...13 hours later..I start to feel the drug leaving my system and basically if I dose 1x a day.. the longer the day passes from that 1x a day dose..your body is adjusting from that point (so 15hours after 1mg...my body is starting to feel that EXTREME difference from 1mg to that point in day). If the drug wears off typically at 12 hours..dosing 1x a day..your body had more drug to adjust from. Dosing twice a day (splitting the dose) your body is recovering from less an extreme adjustment (ie. .5 instead of 1mg) AND your are allowing your body to also adjust to less drug more of the day..

I dont get to 0 if I havent already adjusted my dose down (1x a day or 5 times a day). As long as I dont dose up..when you taper, you taper (ie. when I get to 0..I will have tapered all my dosing times to that point). My evening dose will be 0 too. How is that harder then? The key is to dose evenly and follow your body to when the half lifes seem to wear off on any given point. I taper evenly. For 1mg..I dose .5/.5 For .8 I dose .4/.4. As Glen said, the duration of half life changes as I dose down Im just using the half life to my advantage. When I start to feel an 8hr duration..I will probably split up my dose again to accomodate "less" adjustment for my body to handle. Eventually it will equate out to 24 hour period on nothing..just like you at 1x a dose when I get down to the wee dose amounts. But, my goal is to ensure I make that goal of getting off. And at 1x a day...I was craving more Sub because I was experiencing more withdrawal since even at 1mg I was feeling it 14 hours later. Splitting...that little .5 lasted me throughout the day and night. I dont feel the cold/sweats now at 7p but I did when my last dose was 9:30am. When I get down to .2 in goth doses..I will adjust both doses

I will adjust as need be. As long as I keep it even dosing (for me) that works great. As long as I get to 0 that is all I care about.

If start to feel withdrawal after 0 in mornings and evernings.. i will deal with it. I think evernings are always hard with sleep and mornings always have their special place for me since I tend to do so much in mornings. But I will deal with it.

The last thing I want now is to make those two times of days harder. I may be stronger for it at 1x a day as I dose down, DEALING with more extreme drops the longer I go from that 1x dose..and the more I drop...but all Im doing is just making it harder.

I am may be closer to that 0 two times a day vs 1 when we get past 0, but because it was softer on the way down, I am more apt to handle the post 0 days. I will be able to maintain a level of 'well being" more to prepare me for those post sub days. If that makes sense.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 08, 2015 6:40 am 
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Thank you so much to the last poster. You've made more sense to me than anything else on here. I was so worried about getting to 1x dosing a day, i forgot what this is all about:getting to 0. I've done further research, and don't see how spreading it out to 2x or 3x a day could hurt; 0 is the goal. Thank you so much! You have no idea how much better i feel now about my progress! 1mg a day, and dropping every week or two. Wish me luck! I'm done with this whooooole mess, and cannot wait to be sub free! (Don't worry, I'm also patient enough to do it right, and for good ;) )


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