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PostPosted: Mon May 29, 2017 9:43 pm 
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Hello everyone,

I am a little over a month off of Subutex. And I was wondering if anyone has insight on PAWS? I am doing great for the most part. I was just curious to how long this may last, and if someone has experience with PAWS I would love to hear what you went through. I know it is different for everyone, and it can last from a month or two, or even years. But, I am asking if anyone has personal experience with PAWS from Bupe.

I just want to know that there is hope, and that I will recover eventually. I feel like a completely different person, and I am having a hard time getting comfortable with the new me. I feel proud, and I do not have drug cravings but I am having PAWS. I feel very numb.. and when I say numb I lack feelings to a great extent.

I am not even slightly satisfied unless I am listening to music. I can not listen to music non stop I have responsibilities. I have knowledge with this process, but not the numbness and PAWS in general. I think only time can heal that. And I wouldn't make a thread about this if it wasn't serious.

I just feel like someone took my soul, and I want it back so bad.. I want to be normal that's all....


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PostPosted: Wed May 31, 2017 1:56 am 
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Been there. And I am here to offer hope. My PAWS period probably lay lasted two months from when I took my last dose. The first month was more physical stuff, fatigue, goosebumpy skin, malaise. I did a lot of exercise, a lot of walking in the sunshine with music blasting in my ears. Once those things subsided it became a dull depression of sorts. I made it a point to continue working out (endorphins), having lots of sex (endorphins), watching funny movies (endorphins), playing with my kids...love. I pulled out of it. I slowly but surely just turned a corner and I was so happy. I was so proud of myself, so eurphoric in no longer being held a prisoner. Other things that helped were vitamins for energy, using a sauna, just felt like I was sweating it out at a faster rate! I never did NA or AA, or programming of any kind. Once I was over the hump, my life skyrocketed towards positivity. 4 years later, I often have to pinch myself.

Hang in there love. Like I told my self over and over again - the only way out was through it. If I wanted OUT, I had to ride through all those feelings, but I trusted there was a light at the end of the tunnel, and there definitely was one.

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**OUT OF ACTIVE ADDICTION SINCE 7/18/13**
**OFF SUBS SINCE 11/1/13**

"the only way out is through"


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PostPosted: Wed May 31, 2017 8:09 am 
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Hey subtapering....

UWBL gives an eloquent and inspiring reply which is hard to follow, especially since I've no direct experience with opiate PAWS. But it most certainly will come to an end as body and mind continue to heal. The timeline as I've read and heard, is variable. But you already know that.

Some 30 years ago I kicked a vicious Xanax habit. Of course Xanax is a benzo not an opiate, but the post withdrawal experience from any addictive drug is about the healing process. It took me a good year to feel
substantially better...but there's also steady improvement along the way. One day you look back and suddenly realize you're feeling much better. Then a few months later you're much better than that. And so it goes until one day you're realizing, Wow, my life is so much better than it was I can't believe it! For me AA played a huge part in my getting through it. Do you have any external support? Of course we're all different, but I don't think I'd have made it without the meetings and especially the friendships. Then again, I was quite sick when I finally got to the halls.

I relate so well to what you say about feeling like you've lost your soul. I had the same experience and in fact
I remember using similar words to describe how I felt to others. I'm a friendly guy despite some shyness, and have a decent sense of humor. It was as if that part of my personality had been somehow amputated. I was really frightened I'd never get those missing parts of myself back. But i did, and you will too.

Try not to be in too much of a hurry. You say you feel pride...and well you should. Try to build on those feelings. UBW gives excellent suggestions to help you feel better, but I'm thinking a certain amount of
acceptance of where you're at and how you're feeling at any given moment is a good idea too. Just remember
that every bad day is an important day in the healing process, and that those bad days are necessary if you're to get well.

Again the good news is this is all temporary. I look back at that first year in sobriety I mentioned above
with gratitude, humility, and a certain amount of pride.. The memory of pain fades. You'll get those parts of yourself back and then some.

One last suggestion, I find that thinking of life's challenges as a kind of contest with myself to be very helpful. It helps me to get me out of the immediate misery and to take a broader view of things. You got through your sub tapering, something to be immensely proud of. You'll get through this too!

Keep posting. We all want to know how your'e doing.

Godfrey


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PostPosted: Wed May 31, 2017 11:33 am 
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Uwillbloved wrote:
Been there. And I am here to offer hope. My PAWS period probably lay lasted two months from when I took my last dose. The first month was more physical stuff, fatigue, goosebumpy skin, malaise. I did a lot of exercise, a lot of walking in the sunshine with music blasting in my ears. Once those things subsided it became a dull depression of sorts. I made it a point to continue working out (endorphins), having lots of sex (endorphins), watching funny movies (endorphins), playing with my kids...love. I pulled out of it. I slowly but surely just turned a corner and I was so happy. I was so proud of myself, so eurphoric in no longer being held a prisoner. Other things that helped were vitamins for energy, using a sauna, just felt like I was sweating it out at a faster rate! I never did NA or AA, or programming of any kind. Once I was over the hump, my life skyrocketed towards positivity. 4 years later, I often have to pinch myself.

Hang in there love. Like I told my self over and over again - the only way out was through it. If I wanted OUT, I had to ride through all those feelings, but I trusted there was a light at the end of the tunnel, and there definitely was one.



Thank you very much. You have no idea how much it means to me to hear this from someone. I feel alone with the PAWS, because it doesn't seem to be talked about much. I am doing great compared to what I was like when I went from roxys to bupe. Man, when I think back I was like a zombie I couldn't even smile. Therefore, suboxone PAWS are not nearly as bad as they were from roxys. I have a good memory, but during active addiction things are kind of a blur.

Thanks for the hope it truly means a lot to me. I am trying to do all the things you mention above, I have been working hard on my recovery. You definitely have to put your recovery into action, I realized that if I sat around it was not getting any better. I had to get out and do something, live again. I just found it weird I was doing great, then out of nowhere I was hit with problems mentally, and physically again. I had my guard up, but let it down because I thought I was in the clear, boy I was wrong.

Thanks again you just gave me so much hope. :D


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PostPosted: Wed May 31, 2017 11:55 am 
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godfrey wrote:
Hey subtapering....

UWBL gives an eloquent and inspiring reply which is hard to follow, especially since I've no direct experience with opiate PAWS. But it most certainly will come to an end as body and mind continue to heal. The timeline as I've read and heard, is variable. But you already know that.

Some 30 years ago I kicked a vicious Xanax habit. Of course Xanax is a benzo not an opiate, but the post withdrawal experience from any addictive drug is about the healing process. It took me a good year to feel
substantially better...but there's also steady improvement along the way. One day you look back and suddenly realize you're feeling much better. Then a few months later you're much better than that. And so it goes until one day you're realizing, Wow, my life is so much better than it was I can't believe it! For me AA played a huge part in my getting through it. Do you have any external support? Of course we're all different, but I don't think I'd have made it without the meetings and especially the friendships. Then again, I was quite sick when I finally got to the halls.

I relate so well to what you say about feeling like you've lost your soul. I had the same experience and in fact
I remember using similar words to describe how I felt to others. I'm a friendly guy despite some shyness, and have a decent sense of humor. It was as if that part of my personality had been somehow amputated. I was really frightened I'd never get those missing parts of myself back. But i did, and you will too.

Try not to be in too much of a hurry. You say you feel pride...and well you should. Try to build on those feelings. UBW gives excellent suggestions to help you feel better, but I'm thinking a certain amount of
acceptance of where you're at and how you're feeling at any given moment is a good idea too. Just remember
that every bad day is an important day in the healing process, and that those bad days are necessary if you're to get well.

Again the good news is this is all temporary. I look back at that first year in sobriety I mentioned above
with gratitude, humility, and a certain amount of pride.. The memory of pain fades. You'll get those parts of yourself back and then some.

One last suggestion, I find that thinking of life's challenges as a kind of contest with myself to be very helpful. It helps me to get me out of the immediate misery and to take a broader view of things. You got through your sub tapering, something to be immensely proud of. You'll get through this too!

Keep posting. We all want to know how your'e doing.

Godfrey


Thank you Godfrey,

Honestly any kind of insight helps. I do not have much knowledge with PAWS, and I know I need it to get through this. No one really understands what I am going through, and when I try to explain it to family, and my husband they think I'm crazy. My husband says I should be recovered, and I just wish someone understood me. Thank god for the people on here, we understand each other perfectly. I do not have any kind of external support unfortunately. I went to NA years ago, and it just wasn't for me, the people there were trying to get high and some were already high.. and I just thought to myself what a shit show.. sorry to say that. It was true though it was all a lie, and they just didn't seem to want to be clean. So, I never went back there.

That is what I am worried about that I may not have my fun personality again, but yet that was part of my addiction though wanting to have this energetic high constantly. Your completely right these bad days are part of the healing process, it means my body is healing. I am not in a hurry, but everyone else is I guess you could say. I have the college I went to calling be about jobs, they have high expectations for me. But, no matter how many times I tell people I have a lot going on they don't listen. I also have a certification that is due by the end of the year. But, I know my health is more important right now. Of course, family and others still try to tell me I need to get on with life.. they just don't understand.

I feel the same way.. honestly I don't feel satisfied in life unless I am challenged in some way or another. Thank you very much I greatly appreciate the support, and help. :D


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PostPosted: Wed May 31, 2017 2:43 pm 
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Oh boy, I had some major paws coming off roxy's too! During and after rehab I was miserable. I didn't even have the motivation to shower, I had to force myself. It was definitely a feeling of my soul being taken out of my body. Plus I was having cravings with the paws and I counted.... out of around 5 months, I woke up 4 mornings NOT consumed with cravings and depression. 4 mornings! I remember being afraid to go to sleep at night because I knew when I'd open my eyes again I'd be miserable. I don't know what that was. I don't know if it was paws mixed with cravings or just cravings or what. I will say though, those 4 mornings were great and it gave me a glimpse of what life could be like without oxycodone. I relapsed though and the next shot at recovery was buprenorphine and thank God for that!

I don't know a lot about paws because that's really the only real clean time I had before suboxone. I completely understand ur family not understanding. Think about it, how would they know exactly what it's like? My suggestion would be to have ur husband research paws. If he at least knows ur not the only person feeling this way then he's more likely to not assume it's just something ur going through. If he knows paws is a real thing then that can help support u tremendously. I know my family didn't understand it at all when I was going through what I was.

There's a lot of stuff on this forum about paws, u should use the search function and read through them. Sometimes it helps just knowing others have been through what ur going through :)

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 01, 2017 1:13 am 
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Jenn,

I know right roxys are hell disguised as heaven. I noticed that almost every person on here was addicted to oxys. I know nothing made me feel the way oxys did.. nothing. Perks, vics those were nothing to me.. like candy. And I believe oxys should be banned, especially with the addiction epidemic here in the united states. Something should be done but of course it wont be, because pharmaceutical companies are making too much money off of it.

I wish I could somehow erase my memory of how they made me feel. I remember no matter what was going on there was always a party in my head lol. I would get so excited over nothing. But, knowing opiates turn on you at some point once tolerance builds makes it pointless. You get to a point where you need just as much to keep you normal.. definitely not worth it at all. Of course though most of us don't think that far ahead, once our mind is set nothing will stop us.

Anyways, I actually did ask my husband to look up PAWS that way he could understand. I am doing a lot better now, hopefully it stays that way. I also did my garden today, it is a lot of hard work but well worth it. We have a big garden, and it took me all day to do it. I love watching plants grow, and putting hard work into them.

Thanks Jenn for the support once again, you are truly a great person. I am gonna get to sleep, it is past my bed time. I try to keep myself at a strict sleep schedule.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 01, 2017 2:48 am 
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Recovery from PAWS is such a gradual process it's almost hard to recognise the progress you make. I've found it's quite normal to have periods of flat affect, also periods of mood mood lability / cycling that gradually get both less severe and less common over time. Opioid PAWS is really strange in that the acute withdrawal is marked with extremely intense emotions, tears / sadness / joy, then once you get over the detox it can feel really emotionless, apart from the moods which seem to have a mind of their own.

It does get better, slowly. Give your brain time for the more intricate parts to adjust to having no opioids in the body.

Another thing that can affect how you "feel" are psych medications. If you've been put on an antidepressant recently you may find yourself less able to cry and grieve.

Also re PAWS, it's impossible to say with any certainty when a person is "better" because the recovery is so gradual and subtle. Best thing to do is to look back in a couple of months time and see how far you've come since you first finished detoxing. Every couple of months look back at how you were, and you'll notice a big difference. But there's a bit of a consensus among people in the AOD field that sub-clinical symptoms of PAWS can take 18-24 months to abate.

I've had over 18 months clean twice. But I also have bipolar so it's really difficult for me to provide much insight beyond the above. Because of my condition my mental health can deteriorate for no reason no matter how long I've been off opioids.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 01, 2017 11:00 am 
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I love gardening! The growing corn and tomatoes type of gardening isn't what I do but it's still planting and nurturing and seeing it grow, gosh it has become a huge passion of mine last yr or two.

I have inside plants and outside plants that I spend a lot of time on. My fiancé isn't home very often through the week but he loves it also. He actually tries to be 'garden boss' but I let it go in one ear and out the other. We just got elephant plant bulbs and I'm so excited to see what they do. My favorite is my spider plant and bromeliad because they just produce babies like crazy and I'm able to give them to all my family.

Ok I'll hush now, u mentioned gardening and off I went lol. The other mods know how I go on and on about gardening. Honestly, it can be a really awesome and healthy way for u to feel a little better on those days u aren't doing so well.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 01, 2017 12:42 pm 
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We need a Recovery Hobbie thread Jenn..
I believe strougly how important to recovery it is to have new positve interests.

Gardening? Ha..dont even get me started!!!!

Jenn, I think you and I are like two peas in a pod.. Tis the season...

Razor


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 01, 2017 2:01 pm 
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Yes! Razor we need a hobby thread. I knew u are like me in the gardening department. I'm ready for the season just not the humid southern heat! It's already hot as heck here, I bet it is in ur neck of the woods too. I think u and I could talk gardening all day long Razor :)

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 01, 2017 7:13 pm 
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TeeJay wrote:
Recovery from PAWS is such a gradual process it's almost hard to recognise the progress you make. I've found it's quite normal to have periods of flat affect, also periods of mood mood lability / cycling that gradually get both less severe and less common over time. Opioid PAWS is really strange in that the acute withdrawal is marked with extremely intense emotions, tears / sadness / joy, then once you get over the detox it can feel really emotionless, apart from the moods which seem to have a mind of their own.

It does get better, slowly. Give your brain time for the more intricate parts to adjust to having no opioids in the body.

Another thing that can affect how you "feel" are psych medications. If you've been put on an antidepressant recently you may find yourself less able to cry and grieve.

Also re PAWS, it's impossible to say with any certainty when a person is "better" because the recovery is so gradual and subtle. Best thing to do is to look back in a couple of months time and see how far you've come since you first finished detoxing. Every couple of months look back at how you were, and you'll notice a big difference. But there's a bit of a consensus among people in the AOD field that sub-clinical symptoms of PAWS can take 18-24 months to abate.

I've had over 18 months clean twice. But I also have bipolar so it's really difficult for me to provide much insight beyond the above. Because of my condition my mental health can deteriorate for no reason no matter how long I've been off opioids.


Hi Teejay,

Thank you for the informative response. It definitely helps me, the mental problems were pretty intense. I had no feelings at all, and wow that is such a horrible feeling. Emotionless towards everyone and everything. I am doing a little better now, but I will have to keep my guard up. That was the problem I was doing so great that I let my guard down.. and that is when I got hit hard. And no I am not on any kind of medication. So it is definitely PAWS.

18 months that is amazing some people never even try to get off of their doc, therefore as long as you keep trying that is all that matters.. I wasn't on anything other than Bupe for years. Before, the most I went without any kind of opiate was a few weeks, and that numb feeling was horrible. Now is 5 weeks, this is the longest I have been without any medication at all in 8 years. It is rather difficult though staying clean I will say that. Not knowing when the PAWS will end sucks.

I remember someone telling me that the real war starts after the acute withdrawals, and I was thinking yea right this is the worst part. I was wrong, the acute withdrawals were terrible, but right now I am battling my own brain. So, I would say that yes the acute withdrawals were horrible, but the PAWS are really bad because you don't know when it will end.

Thanks again for the information, any knowledge with PAWS will help me get through this.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 01, 2017 7:23 pm 
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jennjenn wrote:
I love gardening! The growing corn and tomatoes type of gardening isn't what I do but it's still planting and nurturing and seeing it grow, gosh it has become a huge passion of mine last yr or two.

I have inside plants and outside plants that I spend a lot of time on. My fiancé isn't home very often through the week but he loves it also. He actually tries to be 'garden boss' but I let it go in one ear and out the other. We just got elephant plant bulbs and I'm so excited to see what they do. My favorite is my spider plant and bromeliad because they just produce babies like crazy and I'm able to give them to all my family.

Ok I'll hush now, u mentioned gardening and off I went lol. The other mods know how I go on and on about gardening. Honestly, it can be a really awesome and healthy way for u to feel a little better on those days u aren't doing so well.


Same here I just started it about 2 years ago. Before that if I had flowers they would die pretty quickly.. lol. Now, I am so good at it that my flowers get huge, and my garden will look like its on steroids. I worked so hard on it yesterday that my arms hurt bad today, from hammering the tomato stakes in. We grow fruits, and vegetables.. almost everything you can think of.

It is crazy hard work though to make plants look great, it takes consistency and if you fail to take care of them they die rather quickly haha.. I am sure you understand since you have a love for plants as well. I just think it is beautiful to watch them grow, and look at your hard work paying off. :D


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 01, 2017 7:24 pm 
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Sorry it posted twice.. I only hit the submit once though, oh well.


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