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PostPosted: Tue Apr 19, 2011 7:43 am 
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I'm new around here even though I've been reading for a long time. I noticed alot of defensiveness and anger at anyone who disagrees or offers an explanation. I came to this message board because people usually treat each other good even though they disagree. There are alot of other boards out there for people who don't like sub and want to treat others like shit.

About the subject of this message/board:

I've had two subdocs in the last few years and both have been great - no problems. I didn't feel taken advantage of and don't think/feel that either one of them abused me or the sub program. Both took my insurance. One of them drug tested me and didn't charge me extra for it. Neither of them charged me cash for anything except my copay. I know there are some doctors who only take cash and take advantage of addicts in recovery and that's really sad. I don't think it's with every single suboxone doctor though. Some of them really do care and want to help us. But really, if someone doesn't like their doctor, I would say just keep looking for a new one. I know with other doctors, like specialists, there is a higher cost for the first appointment that for me insurance pays. That higher cost isn't usually charged again. No it's not called induction or initiation, but it higher for that first visit with that doctor.


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 Post subject: first visit fees....
PostPosted: Tue Apr 19, 2011 8:19 am 
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Just wanted to add onto what Chris just posted...you are right, when you see a doctor for the first time they usually book out a longer period of time to see you, having to do either a thorough history and physical or just a thorough history. That is why my Sub dr charges 200$ for the first visit, some charge more...some less...But the difference I think we are seeing is that the dr many times does NOT take the time to do this thorough history. My doctor did...and as I've said most of us have complex histories because addiction is very complex. And when I pay teh $130 to see him monthly, he spends 30 minutes with me. This is my second Sub dr and they both have been psychiatrists and both took TIME to talk to me and really know my history and me.

That said, the stories I hear are much different. Paying $200/month to basically just get a rx. THAT to me is malpractice. I have a friend whose doctor does not take more than 5 min. each visit, even if the patient has a problem...and when he does have a problem the doctor gives outrageous advice!

So, yes, you will sometimes pay more at an initial visit...but you should be getting something for it..and what that something is is a medical history done by the Sub dr. My dr never checks my blood pressure or any of that...and he rarely drug tests me. I'm grateful because I just don't have any more money for it. I know I'm very lucky with the dr I have and he actually helped me out when I couldn't afford to see him last month..he allowed another month of sub. I was very grateful. So, no, not all are bad...

I agree we should dr shop until we find a good fit but it is expensive. I have a client who hates his sub dr and I've tried to convince him to switch dr yet he cannot because the initial fee is cost prohibitive for him. The other issue is access...there are not enough Sub dr. around. I think they need to drop the 100 pt cap. I don't get that...and allow the psychiatrists and addictionologists see patients and do the work they are trained to do. Does this kind of cap happen with other new drugs that come out? No. and Addiction medicine is the MOST highly regulated area of medicine. I also think many dr. are afraid to work in this area of medicine because of that. my opinion but it sometimes feels CIA-ish...like we have no idea what is really going on. Yet we are the ones who are doing the testing for the dr and drug companies..


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 Post subject: hippocratic oath
PostPosted: Tue Apr 19, 2011 8:43 am 
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Painter, with all due respect the Dr. DOES owe us something. Every physician takes a Hippocratic oath before they graduate from medical school. They vow to do no harm.
In a way what you said is paradoxical...you say people will go to another painter if you don't do a good job. People should also go to another dr if they are unhappy. But why should the Dr. kick a patient out of their office for complaining about their care? Wouldn't you rather have a client tell you why they were unhappy so you could do a better job and keep that client? If someone didn't complain to you how could you learn more about your craft? or what people want so you can accomodate their needs?
I think the doctors that we are talking about here, and there are so many more of them than I ever realized, are doing harm. First by being really uneducated about a very complicated and potent medication. Like Ladder said and i've said, would you want to get your anesthesia done by a dermatologist? NO! Addicts need specialists to treat our disease. This is why they've added this speciality practice to medicine. I do think if we had addictionologists and psychiatrists only treat us that our care would be better overall. MY opinion.
I also realize that medicine has changed drastically. Family practice docs make less money then I did when I was a nurse anesthetist. Pediatricians don't make that much...not in the area I lived when I was on the west coast. And the state I was living in was the worst for medical reimbursement. Dentists in my previous state made more money than physicians. Insurance companies are a nightmare to deal with. Even in mental health when I had to deal with insurance companies one insurance company was forcing me to force my client to attend AA, do a 4th step! WHAT???? So I don't deal with insurance companies. But I do not charge an outrageous fee, either and I work on a sliding scale for those who cannot pay. And I've also started a Sub group that is free. I'm not getting rich I can tell you that.
Not every dr is like this. But we are seeing an epidemic here in a sense....these docs needing money jumping on the Sub train but not really knowing what they are doing and not researching either. Ok, I've said enough. But as ladder and others have said if we don't vocalize our concerns NOTHING will change. It is up to us to elicit this change. IMHO.


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 Post subject: hippocratic oath
PostPosted: Tue Apr 19, 2011 8:46 am 
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sorry double post


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 Post subject: Hippocratic Oath
PostPosted: Tue Apr 19, 2011 8:58 am 
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I check a bunch of sites about the Hippocratic oath to make sure what I thought was true that it isn't required and doesn't include "first do no harm" before I said anything and this is what I found.

Quote:
A widely used modern version of the traditional oath was penned in 1964 by Dr. Louis Lasagna, former Principal of the Sackler School of Graduate Biomedical Sciences and Academic Dean of the School of Medicine at Tufts University:

“I swear to fulfill, to the best of my ability and judgment, this covenant:

I will respect the hard-won scientific gains of those physicians in whose steps I walk, and gladly share such knowledge as is mine with those who are to follow.

I will apply, for the benefit of the sick, all measures [that] are required, avoiding those twin traps of overtreatment and therapeutic nihilism.

I will remember that there is art to medicine as well as science, and that warmth, sympathy, and understanding may outweigh the surgeon's knife or the chemist's drug.

I will not be ashamed to say "I know not," nor will I fail to call in my colleagues when the skills of another are needed for a patient's recovery.

I will respect the privacy of my patients, for their problems are not disclosed to me that the world may know. Most especially must I tread with care in matters of life and death. If it is given to me to save a life, all thanks. But it may also be within my power to take a life; this awesome responsibility must be faced with great humbleness and awareness of my own frailty. Above all, I must not play at God.

I will remember that I do not treat a fever chart, a cancerous growth, but a sick human being, whose illness may affect the person's family and economic stability. My responsibility includes these related problems, if I am to care adequately for the sick.

I will prevent disease whenever I can, for prevention is preferable to cure.

I will remember that I remain a member of society, with special obligations to all my fellow human beings, those sound of mind and body as well as the infirm.

If I do not violate this oath, may I enjoy life and art, respected while I live and remembered with affection thereafter. May I always act so as to preserve the finest traditions of my calling and may I long experience the joy of healing those who seek my help.


The words, "First do no harm" are not a part of it and the Hippocratic Oath is no longer required/mandatory. This sentence is from: http://www.nlm.nih.gov/hmd/greek/greek_oath.html: "It also does not explicitly contain the phrase, "First, do no harm," which is commonly attributed to it."

I don't mean to be rude, especially since I haven't been around here very long, but I just wanted to add this for clarifications sake.


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 Post subject: wow
PostPosted: Tue Apr 19, 2011 9:38 am 
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Wow Romeo. Reading this story makes me grateful to have the doctor I have, and that's freakin' sad.

So I ask this: Why is there so much regulation on what we do and how we have to change to be on Suboxone (rightly so) but there's no regulation on how these doctors operate? None. Go take a $100 one day course and you're in.

Doesn't a doctor run this site? Is he doing anything about this or does he think it is OK?


Romeo wrote:
eagleslanding, check this out. My Suboxone doctor charged me $175 CASH per visit AND charged my insurance!! She was hitting my insurance up for another $200, of which, my insurance only covered $25!! Yeah, my doctor was smarter than the average bear apparently....getting cash payments and hitting my insurance. My wife is a Human Resource manager and I immediately had her look at the EOB (Explanation of Benefits) and my wife said that the way my doctor was doing it was bullet proof and ingenious. I almost shit all over myself when I realized I had to pay $350 every month for a 1 hour wait in her lobby and a 30 second visit with her!!

Infuriating didn't even come close to describing how I felt. I felt violated. That afternoon I started calling around to other Suboxone doctors in my area (within 50 miles) and none of them were currently accepting patients. Yep, I was screwed. Because my Suboxone doctor knew she was working with a captive audience, she knew she could charge us whatever she deemed appropriate....and she did.

BTW, when I first started seeing her, the monthly visit's were $100. Over the three years I was on Suboxone, she kept raising the fee and raising the fee. No explanations whatsoever, the receptionist just told me what the new amount was and that I'd have to pay it if I were to be seen. The doctor didn't start hitting my insurance until my final year with her.

To me, that's more crooked than a barrel of snakes.


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 Post subject: Re: Ok....
PostPosted: Tue Apr 19, 2011 9:48 am 
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Ding Ding Ding, we have another winning response from Painter. Wow, that was enlightening.

Fact of the matter is, I wish there were as many sub doctors as there are painters. What a world it would be.

I'd love, LOVE to see you try to throw me out on my ass. Once again, another mindless response from the peanut gallery. Can you at least think a few minutes before you post on this forum topic? It's obvious there is a serious problem and I would argue that there are some ethical boundaries being broken and even possible laws. I do not think it is legal to bring doctors back 100 years to when they showed up at carnivals with a bottle of liquid cocaine for $10.




Painter wrote:
I'm a painter, if I go out and bid a job and price it to high, the customer GOES somewhere else... Its that simple, so may people around here want to fight city hall over moral or immoral shit, The Dr in the 1st post has broken NO laws, hes just expensive and probably tired of druggies... he owes no one nothing, including any fucking ( I Think this the 1st time I've ever printed a bad word ) excuses to anyone, Maybe you would like some cheese with your wine !!!!!! Whats with all the ass kissing around here lately, I get really tired of trying to be nice to people who WANT to be un-happy... If I were the DR I'd throw your ass out of my office !!!!!!


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 19, 2011 9:52 am 
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Ok everyone, let's keep this civil and stop with the insults. You can disagree with each other without resorting to personal attacks. I don't want to have to make another reminder about this. Thanks for your cooperation.

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 Post subject: one more high cost place
PostPosted: Tue Apr 19, 2011 9:56 am 
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I was thinking about all the times I went to the doctor to get vicodin....thinking through all the doctor visits I've had in the past 6 years if anyone had any kind of induction fee or anything out of the ordinary....I don't want to just talk out of my ass here not really knowing....and it reminded me of the huge fees when you go into an urgent care. I understand "emergency-ish" medicine has a high cost...but really, to pay 180$ for, again, 10min with the dr....for say even a migraine...some urgent care doctors actually do a whole neuro exam...( not mri or anything but physical exam) while others just say "what do you need?" Of course back then I loved those guys! "Oh what usually works for me is norco" but still the fee to get in is exorbitantly high.

I'm not at all saying physicians don't deserve good pay for the work they do. I made really good money as an anesthetist. But I'm talking about even just giving us basic care. ok I think I said i'd stop talking...


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 19, 2011 10:51 am 
Seriously....hatmaker is right. Some of the replies on this thread are way more hateful than they need to be. Just because you disagree with what someone else has said does not mean that they have no credibility. Come on. As in most everything else that gets 'heated' around here, the truth lies somewhere in the middle.
I would caution everyone that it is seldom accurate to draw broad conclusions from one's personal experiences. Just because you or your mother or your friend gets treated for their disease with no out of pocket costs, does not mean that it is true for the next patient who goes in for the very same treatment by the very same doctor. The healthcare system, especially when it comes to insurance, etc is so complex and so variable that you just can't paint it with a broad brush like that.
I believe that there are some 'bad' Sub doctors out there. They're charging ridiculously high prices for treatment and they're not providing very good care in exchange for what they're charging. I get that and it pisses me off too! Hey, I'm paying out of pocket for every dime of my treatment.....if anyone hates the costs, it's me!
You know what, though? I also have to pay almost all out of pocket for my child's health care and prescriptions for asthma and severe allergies, and she IS insured. Another family member (also insured) has a 'cap' on what her insurance will cover for prescriptions and anything over that is an out of pocket expense. It goes on and on and on. There is hardly anyone out there anymore who has the fantastic insurance of old which covers almost anything and everything with a small copay. If you're one of those lucky ones.....count your blessings!
Like donh, I worked in healthcare for a very long time also. His head is not buried in the sand and neither is mine. He knows what he's talking about and so do I. Moreover, so does everyone else who has replied here! You know what you know! You know what you know based on your own experience and your knowledge of what others have said on a particular subject. But none of us knows it ALL! And there is no need to insult one another about it. The fact is that this stuff is highly variable. But I can assure you.....NOT everyone who goes to the doctor with a complaint or disease unrelated to alcohol or drug abuse, gets treated without a significant financial responsibility for that treatment. Some do....those with excellent insurance and those with life-threatening diseases who are uninsured and have no ability to pay will get by with minimal out of pocket expense perhaps. But many, many others (myself included) fall into a different category. There are many in the boat with my family. Small business owners with high deductible, catastrophic insurance policies with pre existing riders and so forth. And there are so many other situations out there regarding insurance and healthcare costs, etc that I know little to nothing about, admittedly. In any case, to say that the only people who are having to pay inordinate costs for care are addicts or alcoholics is just plain not true.
I agree that there is a problem with a lot of the doctors out there prescribing Suboxone. I tend to agree with Chinagirl's thoughts that it might be best if only addiction specialists could prescribe. But that would be so restrictive that a lot of folks would never have access to treatment. And I'd hate to see that happen.
We all are free to search for a better doctor if we're unhappy with the one we have. Should we have to? Well, no. But that's the way it is....whether it's for Suboxone or diabetes or cancer treatment or whatever....sometimes we have to change doctors to get the best care for us.
Again, I understand the anger. I just think we have to be careful where we direct it. We need to keep taking that energy and use it to educate others about this stuff so that they might have a better chance at getting the care they need. Certainly, if your particular doctor is practicing unethically.....report him! If you feel you're being charged too much, ask around and see if there are any other doctors in your area who charge less or who don't require drug tests or something like that. There is no easy answer. But to conclude that all, or even most, Subox doctors are only in this for the money, is not right, in my humble opinion. And I do NOT say that because I have doctor friends or any other silly reason like that. It's just that to vilify all doctors is not going to help anything. When it comes to the insurance industry, however, I tend to feel differently! I think that's where the biggest scams are happening! But, there again, it's too complicated to draw any quick conclusions there either. The problems with healthcare access and cost, and insurance issues go way beyond just a perceived (and sometimes very real) discrimmination against addicts. It's just way bigger than that. In any case, let's not throw around insults to each other just because we don't see everything exactly the same!


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 19, 2011 11:21 am 
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I thought I better reread what I wrote to be sure...Did i say do no harm was an actual quote from the h. oath? No. It is implied, however, that we (anyone in medicine) do no harm. What was the point of that "correction" exactly? I'm on the side of anyone who has been mistreated. and doctors, nurses, etc have an obligation to not knowingly harm patients. We are not talking about human error that will always occur. We are talking about blatant mistreatment. We are talking about a specific issue: Doctors and Sub and the fact that addicts NEED sub and it is def. a part of why some dr are jumping on this and it is doing harm to many.


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 Post subject: Re: hippocratic oath
PostPosted: Tue Apr 19, 2011 3:51 pm 
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chinagirl wrote:
What was the point of that "correction" exactly?


chinagirl wrote:
Every physician takes a Hippocratic oath before they graduate from medical school. They vow to do no harm.


I was making a clarification because according to the National Institutes of Health, National Library of Medicine, History of Medicine Division, "Contrary to popular belief, the Hippocratic Oath is not required by most modern medical schools, although some have adopted modern versions that suit many in the profession in the 21st century. It also does not explicitly contain the phrase, "First, do no harm," which is commonly attributed to it."

In other words, you said, as you can see above, "every physician takes the Hippocratic oath..." and then, as you said, you implied that they also vow to do no harm. I just wanted to clarify that it's not necessarily true in all cases, or at least it's not mandatory or required in all cases.

I thought this site liked to provide accurate information? It's one of the reasons I decided to finally register and participate on here. That's all I was trying to do. It's nothing personal-I don't even know you, yet you sound upset and I don't understand why. It's a common mistake and I just wanted to clarify it. Was I not supposed to provide accurate information that I am aware of?


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 Post subject: Okay
PostPosted: Tue Apr 19, 2011 8:12 pm 
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So, I'm glad to have that cleared up, actually. I falsely have been thinking that doctors were expected to "do no harm". I see now that's not true, but it somehow doesn't make me feel any better at all.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 20, 2011 12:00 am 
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Chris1212,

I believe the intention of chinagirls post was to illustrate that doctors should have their patients well being and overall health as their guiding principles.

I'm sorry, but I just don't see how your correction has added any value to this thread? Arguing over whether or not a doctor takes an oath or not and whether that oath contains the phrase 'do no harm' or not was unnecessary in my opinion.

I would sure hope the fact that whether a doctor has taken an oath or not isn't his or her main motivation for providing proper care. I would sure like to think that just being a human being would be reason enough for a doctor to provide proper care, but if you read my replies in this thread I think it's pretty obvious that my sub doctor was taking advantage of her patients. It's pretty evident in several threads on this forum that some sub prescribers are in it for the money and their patients health and well being are a distant second.

I believe your attempt to provide accuracy was noble, but misguided and it bordered on being petty.

I've typed this response and erased it for a 3rd time now in an attempt to leave my attitude at the door and make my point only. I hope the third time was the charm.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 20, 2011 9:05 am 
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Chris1212- I see you are relatively new here and I wanted to belatedly welcome you to the forum, and I'm sorry I haven't done so already.



As for ensuring this forum provides accurate information, yes, that's important to us here. And I don't believe it's at all appropriate to tell a fairly new member that her/his contributions to the site are misguided and petty. Plenty of people have provided information or corrections for the sake of accuracy over the past two years and I don't recall any of their attempts ever being called misguided or petty.

If anyone has any questions on the subject feel free to send me a PM and we can let the topic of this thread get back on track.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 20, 2011 10:03 am 
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Sorry, stopped reading your post once you started defending the industry's abuse of the Suboxone program while saying your head is not in the sand.

I'm just not going to settle for excuses anymore. I am not going to settle for the "Find another doctor" when I've scoured the listings and word of mouth for another doctor and I cannot find one who doesn't want at least $700 upfront before I walk in their office.

I repeat: NO ONE pays an initiation fee for treatment! NO ONE. An initiation fee is a charge the doctor makes a patient pay before he or she will be see by the doctor. That is an initiation fee. It has nothing to do with insurance. It has nothing to do with true out-of-pocket expenses. It's a unethical fee the doctors are charging because they know a desperate addict will almost always pay the fee.

Why are some of you trying to muddy the water on this topic? It's pretty damn clear what I am talking about and since you two are so smart and in the medical field or were in medical fields, I am really confused as to why this is so complicated for you two smarty pants to understand?

Sorry to sound so sarcastic and flippant, but I'm sick and tired of this crap. I will not let this topic get muddied by defenders of unethical practices.

I know that a MAJORITY of these doctors are doing this, not a minority. A MAJORITY.

Not all doctors do it. Some doctors, as represented on this forum, do great work with patients. But a MAJORITY do not, don't care and took the one-day course so they could make more money.

How about I give you the listing for the area in which I live, and a 40 mile radius so that you can call them to see for yourself that most want a huge fee before they will even let you in the door or they do not have any more patients available.

I've stated on here that I have tried to find a new doctor, so why do you keep telling me to find another one?

Something is very, very, very wrong with this program and I fear Suboxone has messed with the common sense of some of the people on this forum. Not trying to be cruel...not at all. Just wondering if none of you really care.













setmefree wrote:
Seriously....hatmaker is right. Some of the replies on this thread are way more hateful than they need to be. Just because you disagree with what someone else has said does not mean that they have no credibility. Come on. As in most everything else that gets 'heated' around here, the truth lies somewhere in the middle.
I would caution everyone that it is seldom accurate to draw broad conclusions from one's personal experiences. Just because you or your mother or your friend gets treated for their disease with no out of pocket costs, does not mean that it is true for the next patient who goes in for the very same treatment by the very same doctor. The healthcare system, especially when it comes to insurance, etc is so complex and so variable that you just can't paint it with a broad brush like that.
I believe that there are some 'bad' Sub doctors out there. They're charging ridiculously high prices for treatment and they're not providing very good care in exchange for what they're charging. I get that and it pisses me off too! Hey, I'm paying out of pocket for every dime of my treatment.....if anyone hates the costs, it's me!
You know what, though? I also have to pay almost all out of pocket for my child's health care and prescriptions for asthma and severe allergies, and she IS insured. Another family member (also insured) has a 'cap' on what her insurance will cover for prescriptions and anything over that is an out of pocket expense. It goes on and on and on. There is hardly anyone out there anymore who has the fantastic insurance of old which covers almost anything and everything with a small copay. If you're one of those lucky ones.....count your blessings!
Like donh, I worked in healthcare for a very long time also. His head is not buried in the sand and neither is mine. He knows what he's talking about and so do I. Moreover, so does everyone else who has replied here! You know what you know! You know what you know based on your own experience and your knowledge of what others have said on a particular subject. But none of us knows it ALL! And there is no need to insult one another about it. The fact is that this stuff is highly variable. But I can assure you.....NOT everyone who goes to the doctor with a complaint or disease unrelated to alcohol or drug abuse, gets treated without a significant financial responsibility for that treatment. Some do....those with excellent insurance and those with life-threatening diseases who are uninsured and have no ability to pay will get by with minimal out of pocket expense perhaps. But many, many others (myself included) fall into a different category. There are many in the boat with my family. Small business owners with high deductible, catastrophic insurance policies with pre existing riders and so forth. And there are so many other situations out there regarding insurance and healthcare costs, etc that I know little to nothing about, admittedly. In any case, to say that the only people who are having to pay inordinate costs for care are addicts or alcoholics is just plain not true.
I agree that there is a problem with a lot of the doctors out there prescribing Suboxone. I tend to agree with Chinagirl's thoughts that it might be best if only addiction specialists could prescribe. But that would be so restrictive that a lot of folks would never have access to treatment. And I'd hate to see that happen.
We all are free to search for a better doctor if we're unhappy with the one we have. Should we have to? Well, no. But that's the way it is....whether it's for Suboxone or diabetes or cancer treatment or whatever....sometimes we have to change doctors to get the best care for us.
Again, I understand the anger. I just think we have to be careful where we direct it. We need to keep taking that energy and use it to educate others about this stuff so that they might have a better chance at getting the care they need. Certainly, if your particular doctor is practicing unethically.....report him! If you feel you're being charged too much, ask around and see if there are any other doctors in your area who charge less or who don't require drug tests or something like that. There is no easy answer. But to conclude that all, or even most, Subox doctors are only in this for the money, is not right, in my humble opinion. And I do NOT say that because I have doctor friends or any other silly reason like that. It's just that to vilify all doctors is not going to help anything. When it comes to the insurance industry, however, I tend to feel differently! I think that's where the biggest scams are happening! But, there again, it's too complicated to draw any quick conclusions there either. The problems with healthcare access and cost, and insurance issues go way beyond just a perceived (and sometimes very real) discrimmination against addicts. It's just way bigger than that. In any case, let's not throw around insults to each other just because we don't see everything exactly the same!


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 20, 2011 12:49 pm 
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I actually do see the doc that runs this site and he is a great doctor who i believe genuinely cares about mine and other peoples addiction issues and getting them to be able to maintane a normal life. He does charge more for your initial visit, but he also spends alot of time with you getting to know your addiction issues and about your life in general. It makes sense that an evaluation will cost more than a check up visit! However i do disagree with them charging 700-1000 dollars that is ridiculous. Those docs are giving good ones a bad rap. They are not all like that! I have been with this doc through a couple surgeries and he has helped me through it all and i believe without him i would possibly be in the ground right now by accidental overdose. Dont get me wrong they are not all like him and there should be some way that they monitor things better in certain states etc. I have had alot of medical issues and my heart doc did the same thing my initial visit was outrageous to me, but the thing is my insurance pays 80% unlike with mental health/ADDICTION i have to pay 500 and then they only pay60% of what they think it is worth. which is not right either. I do believe there are docs out there taking advantage due to when your an addict and need and want help you will do anything to get it! I would not be here today if it wasnt for my Doctor or in the least wouldnt be doing as well as i am. I hope you can find someone whom you can trust like i trust Dr.JJ

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SUB PATIENT FOR ALMOST FIVE YEARS WITH A COUPLE SURGERYS IN BETWEEN, SO ALOT OF GOING OFF AND GETTING BACK ON SUBOXONE AND FIGURING OUT MY QUALITY OF LIFE IS MUCH BETTER ON SUBOXONE ESPECIALLY WHEN YOU HAVE CHRONIC PAIN AND ADDICTION ISSUES!


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 20, 2011 2:57 pm 
Eagle.....Exactly where was it that I "started defending the industry's abuse of the Suboxone program?" Excuse me....but I'm afraid that you've allowed your anger and defensiveness to cloud what you're reading here. Just because every single reply on the thread you started doesn't come in with complete agreement with every single thing you've said doesn't give you the right to turn this into a big argument or a personal attack to anyone who dares to disagree with you. The fact is that I don't think any of us have completely disagreed with you at all. I certainly haven't. In fact I was careful to tell you that I do understand your anger and frustration and I do agree that there are some bad doctors out there and there are many who are charging ridiculous fees for treatment. How does that equate to my having my head buried in the sand?
What I'm trying to get you to see is that just because this is how you see it, just because this is the way you've been treated, or even many of the people you know have been treated, doesn't mean that's the way it always is.
If you want me to accept what you have to say as fact.....that the "majority" of doctors are practicing unethically, and that NO other doctors charge higher fees for initial visits for any other illness or treatment other than for Suboxone....you're going to need to show me more than just your opinion. If you can show me some data on this, I'll be more than happy to have a look at it and if it's true, it's true and I'll accept it. But until then, I will not agree that the majority of doctors prescribing Suboxone are in this only for the money. And I do not agree that it is never common practice for doctors to charge a higher initial fee on the patient's first visit.
Again, I'm saying that it's not a good idea to make blanket statments and present them as true and accurate without anything to back it up other than your own experiences and opinions. That's all.
The only reason I have bothered to reply again on this thread is that I would not like to see an addict come to this site looking for information and considering beginning a treatment that could change or save their life, and be led away from seeking that treatment because they have read that almost every doctor they may see for treatment is unethical and in this only for the money and that the whole thing is basically a rip off. That is not right, in my opinion.

As a sidenote.....I agree with Romeo that correcting inaccurate information can be petty and misguided at times and adds nothing of value to a thread. I remember clearly that some time ago, I corrected someone about the difference between a Registered Nurse and a Medical Assistant. Although the correction I made was accurate, it was petty and misguided and I ultimately apologized for it. In the meantime, I was certainly called to task on the matter. Sometimes pointing out inaccuracies is just not necessary. Just sayin'.


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 21, 2011 8:23 am 
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I'm sorry, then.

I just don't understand why all of us cannot figure out a way to do something about this, since we all have basically admitted to knowing that this stuff is happening to Suboxone patients and drug addicts who need this treatment but cannot afford it.

Staying an addict doesn't mean you're using like Kurt Cobain. My habit never cost as much as it is costing me now to be on Suboxone. Am I glad I am not using? Yes. Am I regretting going to suboxone? Sort of.

It really bothered me Monday when I watched right in front of me a man obviously in need of Suboxone at age 45 having to use his mother's credit card to get in the door only to be told that the doctor needs another $350, which nearly brought the man to his knees. It was incredibly unprofessional to have this conversation in the waiting room, but the doctor refused to see the family. So, he's basically pleading and begging with his family as we all watched, and the administrator behind the window is just saying, "We need the money."

I remember when I was doing my call arounds for a doctor that had room I came across one who wanted $1000 up front and then $100 each month plus the medicine and he did not take any insurance (I would have to file, and he was out of network). He told me that he refuses to take any insurance because he doesn't appreciate an insurance company directing what he should charge his patients. As I was talking to him, I sensed this guy was off his rocker. He was weird and it scared me that he is a registered shrink and that he is a sub doctor, too. He sounded clueless.

Everyone in my area is either booked or wants big money before I can step into the office. I really cannot stand my current sub doctor and I know it is affecting my recovery. He always forgets how many miligrams I am taking, he's accused me of not taking my subs and kicked me off the program until I forced myself into his office and he realized he had bad math, continues to drug test me not for opiates but for every drug under the sun so that the test is $600 and continues to test me for suboxone as if I want a bunch of unused subs laying around/ What the hell else am I going to do with them? And if I weren't taking them, I think he'd notice I wasn't feeling or looking good? WDing maybe? Idiot.


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 21, 2011 10:41 am 
Eagle....Please know this....I get it! I really do! Everything you have been through and witnessed with your Sub doctor is deplorable! He/she sounds like a real piece of work, a real black eye to the practice of medicine! It sounds pretty obvious that there is little to no care for the patients he is treating and what he's doing is sooooo unethical! To bounce around what fees he's charging from patient to patient and to treat people the way he is, is unspeakable! I don't blame you one bit for being furious about it.
I've been lucky....My Sub doctor is an opiate addict and was on Sub himself, so he gets it at least more than most. However, he does NOT take insurance. He charges a $400 initial fee and requires a $200 cash or credit card only fee for monthly visits for the entire time you're in treatment with him. It's ridiculous and I don't like it, but I've seen worse. He also is very cavalier about tapering. He was able to just start skipping days and come off Sub easily, so he thinks everyone should be the same way. On the other hand, he doesn't require drug testing and he doesn't require 12-step meetings and he is a real nice guy (although a little scatter-brained at times!)
I guess I'm just reiterating that doctors, like all human beings, are different. There are good ones and bad ones. It shouldn't be this way.....They should all be looking out for us, taking good care of us, charging appropriate and reasonable fees. I wish it were that way, but it isn't. I think most of us agree that our healthcare system is broken....even moreso when it comes to mental health issues such as addiction.
I would like to add again, that in my opinion, so much of this has to do with problems with the insurance industry. For the most part, insurance reimbursements for services rendered by the physician are absolutely pathetic! This is why, if they can get away with it, a lot of docs will refuse to file insurance and want cash up-front. Another thing is...a lot of health insurance policies do not even cover mental health issues. Again why would the doctor agree to see the patient with no guarantee of payment? In a perfect world, he'd do it because it's the right thing to do, because he's a doctor and he's supposed to help people! Sadly, that's not the case a lot of the time.
I realize none of that matters when it's us paying the price for all that is wrong in healthcare. None of that matters when we are treated like crap by a doctor who has just pulled up in a brand new Mercedes! Like I said, I'm feeling it too. It makes me angry too. I just think it's a little more complex than we think it is sometimes.
Thanks for being willing to try again to hear what I was trying to say, Eagle. I really do hear you, too and I agree with you...It is wrong the way a lot of us are being treated to be on Suboxone.


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Fond Du Lac Psychiatry
Dr. Jeffrey Junig, M.D., Ph.D.

  • Board Certified Psychiatrist
  • Asst Clinical Professor, Medical College of Wisconsin

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