It is currently Thu Aug 17, 2017 11:56 am



All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]


Our Sponsors





Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 16 posts ] 
Author Message
PostPosted: Wed Sep 11, 2013 10:13 pm 
Offline
Average Poster
Average Poster
User avatar

Joined: Wed Sep 11, 2013 9:34 pm
Posts: 7
I was so greatful when I learned of Suboxone. My case is unusual, as I had someone keeping me in the foothills of New Hampshire and keeping me on huge doses of Fentanyl, Morphine, Clonopin, Soma and I do not know what else.

Once I was freed from the situation, I thought I could just stop taking everything. Withdrawal almost killed me. So I turned from a victim to a drug seeker because I escaped to Texas and that is another whole story for the pharmaceutical industry. After 3 months of monthly begging and trips to the ER, a psyche doc was called in and I was mercifully put on Suboxone. It was a seamless move and I was astounded at the miracle properties of the medication.

I am also a chronic pain patient, I broke my neck, both shoulders and both arms during the time I was in NH.

I never craved the drugs from the day I was on Suboxone. I have been on it 2 and half years. I am on 8 mg a day. My doctor keeps trying to talk me into raising it, doubling it. I have refused every month.

One of the primary reasons is his responses to my questions.

Time and again, I have asked him what would happen if I had an accident, needed surgery, what would happen?
His response;" I don't know",

My jaw drops every time I ask him another question. How can a dr. prescribe a drug that they cannot reverse, or that could cause me serious tramatic pain? He keeps telling me not to worry so much, instead of giving me fruitfull answers. I have gotten more information off this forum than anywhere else, including the Suboxone page that, by the way, also does not have information regarding reversal. This drug is a miracle, but how did the FDA allow them to pass this without that important criteria?

What do you folks do, wear a bracelet? Carry info on you?

Is it true that Fentanyl and Versed work? And how does one explain this to medical personell without looking suspicious. Is there a link that I can print out to keep on my person?

If I were to be diagnosed with some catastophic illness, like cancer, what do I do?

I have gone up to 6 days without my suboxone,. (an experiment to see how long it takes to clean my system) and I barely notice a change. I get absolutely no high from the medication.

If the worse were to happen, what is the thing to do?

This is the plan I have should the worse happen since no doctor can answer these questions. To immediately take the drugs the dr. may give me, and stop taking the suboxone immediately. It would seem that initially they would not work. But would that cause me to go into withdrawals? (some of the answers here have confused me).

Would the medications eventually start working after being off the suboxone for 7 days and is my plan for immediately taking prescribed pain medication and stopping the suboxone work? And after two weeks would narcotics start working on me?


I feel as a group, we should start working toward doctor responsibility. This should be unacceptable to us. Just because of the nature of our maladies, does not mean we can be treated like second hand citizens. Are we afraid if we squeek our wheels the medication may be discontinued?

Thanks to all for the attention you have given to my questions.

_________________
You do not pay me money, so you cannot rent space in my head.


Last edited by dlschuch on Thu Sep 12, 2013 8:09 am, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Sep 12, 2013 7:27 am 
Offline
Long Time Member
Long Time Member
User avatar

Joined: Wed Dec 28, 2011 8:47 am
Posts: 937
Location: Southeastern US (Alabama)
I'm not 100% on your exact question, but the part about narcotic meds working and doctors being responsible...

I, for one, don't really mind. If I needed surgery, I would have my sub doc and anesth doc work together to have a plan, but since Suboxone is a partial opiate agonist, that means it can have some pain relieving tendencies. So, chances are I would simply take Sub in place of narcotic meds, and let the Sub do what it's supposed to do.

In the 5 years I've been on Suboxone, I've never worried about this stuff, because the questions you asked are more geared toward the addict mindset. It's sort of like saying "I don't want suboxone to do this to me just in case I wanna take some lortabs on the side"...
And it doesn't work that way. It's either all or nothing, in my view, and I want nothing. I don't want any narcotic meds to work, I don't want to have the option, even if it's through ill-gotten means, to have opiates do anything to me, because that's what got me where I was 5 years ago and I never want that life again.

_________________
Adam Wayne P.
DOB: July 1, 1985
October 8, 2013

RIP little brother. Gone, but not forgotten.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Sep 12, 2013 7:57 am 
Offline
Average Poster
Average Poster
User avatar

Joined: Wed Sep 11, 2013 9:34 pm
Posts: 7
Jonathann68

You said " the questions you asked are more geared toward the addict mindset"

Well, there we go. Even among us we have to label and point. Do not expect me to defend myself from your views.

You do not know me.

However, I will explain...again...so you can better understand me. I am 60 years old. I will no doubt be running into health issues. As for my doctor, he knows less than anyone here about the product. When I asked him these questions, he is cavalier and really, in a way, he is like you (excluding saying I have an addictive personality. He is aware of how I was put on those drugs to begin with) He is only looking at the hear and now.

As for other doctors, they are also clueless and I have yet to find even one who knows what the medication is. And I have been hospitalized for pneumonia two Christmases in a row. Both times, in the big ole medical center in Houston, not one medical personnel knew about the drug.

Never once have I taken a drug illegally or abused the ones I was given. The person I was with regulated the doses to maintain my submission. However, that does not make me any better than anyone else here and I would never assume or imply what others are thinking.

I am not looking to become addicted again. If I were I would just let my doctor keep upping the dosage.

My fear, if you read it is, what if...WHAT IF I get in a car accident and I am not only knocked unconcious but also end up with broken bones? What if the results to some cancer tests I just got are positive. ALl I want to know is what to say or do in an ER situation.

And what the hell is a loratab?

_________________
You do not pay me money, so you cannot rent space in my head.


Top
 Profile  
 
Our Sponsors
PostPosted: Thu Sep 12, 2013 8:41 am 
Offline
Long Time Member
Long Time Member
User avatar

Joined: Wed Dec 28, 2011 8:47 am
Posts: 937
Location: Southeastern US (Alabama)
(lortab is painkillers. it's a type of pill, one of which I ate thousands of in a 12 year span, along with Oxycontin).

As for the E.R. question...you usually will find (sometimes online, sometimes the doctor's have them) a card you can carry in your wallet...this card describes you as a patient being treated with Buprenorphine (the active "drug" in suboxone). In an ER situation, or any other, for that matter, it's just a simple process of the doctors giving you enough pain meds to knock the Suboxone off of the pain receptors in the brain. Just because you take Suboxone now doesn't mean your suddenly immune to pain medicine...it just means you can't get high from taking it, as many of us have done and is what put us here to begin with..taking Suboxone to end an addiction and hellish landslide to devastation and possibly death.

As for cancer...I wouldn't spend my days worrying about that, and even if you do happen to get some variant...much of today's medicine designed to kill cancer cells can do so with little discomfort to the patient. Not every cancer patient needs to be on a regimen of pain meds, because normally, if caught in time, the cancer can be put in recession before it begins to take a toll on the body to the point of causing unbearable pain.

Buprenorphine, or, Suboxone, IS a pain medicine. Whether or not it feels like the pain medicines you're used to taking, it certainly has the capability of helping with pain.
Take into consideration that I'm having every tooth in my head snatched out, and all I take is my Suboxone...no advil, no opiates...I just keep taking my normal Suboxone. And I've had a couple that were infected and had abscesses...and they HURT...but I did just fine taking my Suboxone as help with breakthrough pain, and it only lasted a day or so.

The thing is, even with pain meds, you don't get rid of the pain. I never understood why pills were handed out like they were in the numbers the doctors gave..because in the end, the pain doesn't go away. You just numb yourself to it, and don't care that you hurt (which, in turn, can cause you to more severely injure yourself if your taking them for a broken bone, or surgical reasons.)
Every time I ever took a pill for pain (like after my knee surgery), I just didn't understand why there wasn't some other way to deal with pain..because I still felt the pain, the pills I took just made me not give a shit about it. But, the way some doctors give out painkillers, you'd think they solved the problem...when actually, they just mask it.
I wasn't an active addict when I had my knee surgery...and I took the med like I was prescribed.
So, still feeling the pain, but not caring that it was there...two days after I had the surgery...and with painkillers making me not give a shit that I was hurting, I fell on some concrete steps..which made me hurt even more. Why did I fall? I didn't care that I was hurting. I didn't realize my limits, because the pills were masking the pain, and I thought I didn't need the crutches. So the pills did more harm than good, because if I hadn't been taking them for pain, and would've felt the pressure when I took that first step, I would've known that I didn't need to do that. I just kept going because the pills I had taken (percocet 10s) were keeping me from caring about how bad I hurt, and when I hit the ground, I instantly knew that the pills just made me not worry about the pain, even though I still felt it lingering in my knee and it was still at a level 7 or 8 on the 10-point scale.
So if the pain is just as intense without the pills as it is with them, and the only difference is that you don't care that you're hurting with the pills...what good are they to take?

At least with Suboxone, you feel SOME pain, and you do care that it's hurting..because Suboxone doesn't cause the euphoria that pain meds cause..

_________________
Adam Wayne P.
DOB: July 1, 1985
October 8, 2013

RIP little brother. Gone, but not forgotten.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Sep 12, 2013 8:55 am 
Offline
Average Poster
Average Poster
User avatar

Joined: Wed Sep 11, 2013 9:34 pm
Posts: 7
Thank you. We are getting close to an answer finally.

I know every one has a story and this is another form of support for each other.

I know, I made my question verbose and I should have isolated it to the questions I have.

Another thing I found strange. I do not usually drink, haven't really in almost 10 years, But I went on a camping trip and margaritas were the drink of the night. I am ashamed to admit this, but I drank for 7 hours straight and did not get as much as a buzz. The folks around me were gobsmacked, they simply could not believe it.

So suboxone blocks a lot. It was at that point I realized that I probably would be in trouble if something happened to me. And therein lies my questions.

_________________
You do not pay me money, so you cannot rent space in my head.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Sep 12, 2013 9:13 am 
Offline
Long Time Member
Long Time Member
User avatar

Joined: Thu Dec 13, 2012 5:04 pm
Posts: 423
Hi and welcome to the forum. My advice would be to carry a card in your wallet that states you are on suboxone. A while back, many places hadnt heard of this medication, but thank god doctors are getting educated on the meds and are getting more informed on how to treat patients on Subs.

I used to worry about the same thing because I had to get my wisdom teeth pulled and I was on Suboxone. What I did was taper down off the Suboxone and then I got on Lortab. It transitioned ok, and I was in minimal pain. After the pain went away I got back on Suboxone.

If you are in an accident and you are on Suboxone, there are ways for the doctor to push off the suboxone from your receptors and get you on heavier meds. So I totally understand your worry. There is a section on surgery here that will help you read others that have had surgery, had babies, and been injured all while on Suboxone.

It sounds like you have been through a lot and I am so glad you found this forum as an outlet. Welcome!


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Sep 12, 2013 9:35 am 
Offline
Long Time Member
Long Time Member
User avatar

Joined: Fri Mar 08, 2013 1:02 pm
Posts: 1342
Location: West Tennessee
Raudy gave the same advice I was going to give.

Spend some time reading in the "Surgery on Suboxone" section. You will find the answers to your questions there. If you read through you should also find a link to a post from Dr. J's blog that you can print out and take with you to your surgeon. It explains the best way to handle pain during and after surgeries just in case your doctor isn't already familiar with it. Let me know if you can't find it and I will copy and paste the link here for you.

_________________
No one can make you feel inferior without your consent. ~ Eleanor Roosevelt


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Sep 12, 2013 10:27 am 
Offline
Long Time Member
Long Time Member
User avatar

Joined: Wed Dec 28, 2011 8:47 am
Posts: 937
Location: Southeastern US (Alabama)
You're right in one thing, Suboxone does a LOT more than just block the effects of opiates. I used to enjoy drinking a beer from time to time...and never, not even for a minute, had a problem with alcohol. I never liked the hangover, so I couldn't become addicted to something that made me that sick the next day. I would drink like a fish at times in my younger days, and had quite a few spells where I got so drunk that I would pass out, fall, stagger, etc....When I pitched a drunk, I really pitched a drunk. Since being on Suboxone, I've drank a total of MAYBE 5 beers in 5 years. IF that, I dunno if I would say 5 even. A couple of those I would start drinking and pour half of the beer down the sink. I just lost interest, and I mean totally! There's absolutely no appeal whatsoever in drinking a beer anymore. And the one or two I've managed to finish, I never felt a buzz...so I know it has to be something tied in with the suboxone...

At any rate, I view that as a plus, it's not really a con to me that I don't get anything from alcohol...considering the people in my family who've faced alcoholism.

_________________
Adam Wayne P.
DOB: July 1, 1985
October 8, 2013

RIP little brother. Gone, but not forgotten.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Sep 12, 2013 10:50 am 
Offline
Long Time Member
Long Time Member
User avatar

Joined: Thu Oct 21, 2010 10:39 am
Posts: 4028
Location: Sitting at my computer
Hi dlschuch,

Welcome to the forum!!

Yes, Fentanyl (a powerful opiate) and Versed (a benzodiazepine) will work to control pain from an unexpected medical emergency.

If you know about your surgery beforehand, you can simply wean down your dose of Suboxone prior to surgery and get on pain killers for a few days after the surgery, then transition back to Suboxone.

As for going into wd from taking pain meds, that won't happen. The only time you would go into wd is from taking Suboxone too soon after taking pain meds. Suboxone has a higher affinity for the mu receptor than most pain meds, but it doesn't stimulate that receptor like a pain med would. So, the Suboxone would displace the current pain med (which is stimulating the receptor), but Suboxone doesn't stimulate the receptor as much.....that's precipitated wd.

So, you can take pain meds while on Suboxone and not have any wd, it's when you go from pain meds to Suboxone that you have to be wary of prec. wd.

_________________
Be kind to yourself. Our character defects do NOT define who we are!


Top
 Profile  
 
   
PostPosted: Thu Sep 12, 2013 1:42 pm 
Offline
Moderator
Moderator
User avatar

Joined: Sun Jan 02, 2011 12:35 am
Posts: 2801
Location: Southwest
Hi dlschuch, and welcome to our forum.

The questions you pose are valid and have been discussed here many times. I too had the same worries about needing pain meds and then what you call the worst thing that could happen, happened. I got cancer. Oral cancer. Jon said earlier about the treatments not causing too much pain for C treatment. That is true on a lot of them, but not with ones that require surgery or any Oral Cancers at all.

I'll just repeat what was already stated. I tapered down to 1 mg of Suboxone before my surgery to remove part of my tongue. No problems getting a patient to sleep during surgery because they use the Jackson Juice with Versed and no one can stay awake with those two.

The problem I ran into was my surgeon having no bedside manner with opiates. Meaning, he would rather me suffer than to prescribe pain meds. I was given Percocet 7.5 and Lortab 10's to manage my pain after pleading with him. They worked so so. After two weeks I went back onto 6 mg's of Suboxone again with no w/d issues. Then I faced another surgery and radiation. (very painful)

Am I worried about the future? Not really. We're close in age and I too have my fair share of daily pain. What I take mostly is Aleve. To me, that is a wonder drug. My cancer may come back. I know that. And if it does it will be 3 times worse than the first go around. The one who helped me the most was my Oncologist. They will give you whatever you need, no questions asked. It really isn't difficult to switch back over to Hydrocodone or Oxycodone from Sub.

When I was first put on Suboxone in '10, my doctor gave me a card to carry at all times in case I was in an accident. They still have it around. Go to: http://www.naabt.org/education/literature.cfm

So stop worrying and take some time to read older threads about surgery and so on. You'll see mine back in the archives too. If you want more specific answers, feel free to PM me anytime.

rule

_________________
Don't take yourself so damn seriously


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Sep 17, 2013 10:08 am 
Offline
Long Time Member
Long Time Member
User avatar

Joined: Tue Nov 01, 2011 11:48 pm
Posts: 1346
Location: oregon coast
Anyone concerned about pain management,
and informing dr's NEEDS TO READ HERE.....




http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/article ... s17732.pdf

_________________
anyone can give up,
its the easiest thing in the world to do, but to
hold it together, when everyone would understand if you fell apart
That's TRUE STRENGTH
http://almostoneyearclean.blogspot.com/


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2013 12:01 pm 
Offline
3 Months or More
3 Months or More
User avatar

Joined: Sun Jul 21, 2013 4:56 pm
Posts: 96
They use buprenorphine in Europe for cancer pain. Don't see why It wouldn't be the same here.
Their doses are .2mg though..

I'd ask an anesthesiologist. There's a reason they are one of the highest paid specialties, because the HAVE To know exactly what you want to know....


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2013 3:34 pm 
Offline
6 Months or More
6 Months or More
User avatar

Joined: Sat Aug 04, 2012 5:42 pm
Posts: 226
Location: Minneapolis
Fiveseven15 wrote:
They use buprenorphine in Europe for cancer pain. Don't see why It wouldn't be the same here.
Their doses are .2mg though..


You've answered your own question, my friend! There is a big difference in opioid effect between .2mg and even 2mg. At lower (i.e. microgram) dosages buprenorphine acts like a stereotypical opioid agonist but at higher (i.e. MG) dosages buprenorphine has a uniquely long half-life coupled with a stacking effect that make it desirable for opioid replacement therapy; the highs and lows are all but eliminated with regular once-daily administration of buprenorphine dosages at and above the opioid effect ceiling. Buprenorphine's ceiling effect is why people need additional relief at times while on buprenorphine; maintenance users are tolerant to the opioid effects of buprenorphine, this includes any significant analgesia for acute pain situations.

In the USA Butrans does exist which transdermally delivers microgram dosages of buprenorphine hourly over the course of days for chronic non-cancer and in cases cancer pain. Microgram dosage tablets do not exist in the USA as they do and did in other parts of the world (i.e. Temegesic.)

_________________
TPN Service Companies
Travis Norton, LADC/LAC
540 Greenhaven Road #201|Anoka, MN 55303
(763)250.0702
http://www.facebook.com/TpnServiceCompanies
Person-centered counseling, education, advocacy, referral services and assessments.


Top
 Profile  
 
   
PostPosted: Fri Jan 17, 2014 9:29 pm 
Offline
Site Admin
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: Sun Feb 24, 2008 11:03 pm
Posts: 1543
Not sure why this got bumped to the front- but I've had dozens of patients have surgery on Suboxone or buprenorphine, and most did well. As has been posted, my site has info about surgery; go to www.suboxsearch.com and search my blog (or the forum-- but my blog is a bit more direct) with the word 'surgery'-- you will find what you need. You can download this: http://www.suboxonetalkzone.com/surgery.pdf to see how I handle pain in my own patients.

The right column of www.suboxonetalkzone.com has a link to a free wallet card, to tell EMT's about buprenorphine....

To the original poster-- it is an error to think that meds should have a 'reversal agent'. That is just not how biology works. If a person takes too much acetaminophen (Tylenol) and waits more than a couple days before going to the ER, that person will likely die. Too much of a chemotherapeutic agent or tricyclic antidepressant will cause death even more quickly. People on antipsychotics are at greater risk for death during hot weather. All meds have risks. Buprenorphine is relatively easy to deal with; if you need pain relief for cancer or surgery. opioid agonists will work-- but you need a higher dose to out-compete the buprenorphine. Your doc should know this, of course....


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Jan 19, 2014 2:42 pm 
Offline
Super Poster
Super Poster

Joined: Tue Aug 20, 2013 11:17 pm
Posts: 157
Im in the process of a taper to quit subutex for good because of this very reason. Like the OP said "don't worry so much" is not a god damned answer and Im sick of being treated like I'm blowing things out of proportion every time I bring up concerns at appts. People do no plan to get into horrific accidents, thats why they are called accidents. If I get in my car today and drive into town and get t boned by someone who blows a red light etc. and somehow a fire starts and Im burned horribly, so I should just "not worry" about pain meds not working? I did all my research before going on subs but so I have no one to blame but myself but I find it kind of suspect that this information isn't relayed to the patient. It just pisses me off how sub is viewed as completely benign in a drs eyes but if Im addicted to oxycodone or morphine Im somehow "gonna die". Opiates are less damaging than any drug I see advertised on tv but the worthless drugs on tv don't make you feel good about yourself when you take them so its ok that death is a possible side effect for all of them. As long as people don't feel euphoric its ok for them to take a life threatening drug but the second said drug gives you the slightest enjoyment its time to ban it and try to find a more dangerous less euphoric alternative.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Feb 09, 2014 7:05 pm 
Offline
Average Poster
Average Poster

Joined: Sat Feb 01, 2014 12:45 am
Posts: 12
This is a very fascinating discussion for me and I'm grateful it was created.

At 60 it's the what-ifs at my age that has me concerned. I can't see myself tethered to this medication in 10 years when I'm 70. We're invincible in our 20's, 30's and 40's, but not in our 60's or 70's…..so this was a very valid post for me and not as someone said, an addicts thinking.

My doctor didn't have much of an answer as to what to do in an emergency either so, with the help of this wonderful group of people here, I'm tapering down myself.


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 16 posts ] 

All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Our Sponsors
Suboxone Forum latest topics RSS feed Subscribe to the entire forum
 

 

 
Fond Du Lac Psychiatry
Dr. Jeffrey Junig, M.D., Ph.D.

  • Board Certified Psychiatrist
  • Asst Clinical Professor, Medical College of Wisconsin

Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group