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PostPosted: Fri Sep 07, 2012 3:33 pm 
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just was wondering if anyone thought through the taper process and both types of w/d that there doc lenght of use as well as sub lenght of use had any effect on their ability to stop using subs? i mean i have read on this site that people who had a 60mg a day vic habit were taking as much subs as a 500mg+ oxy habit, so i was just wondering if your previous doc makes a difference if youve been on subs for a while.


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 Post subject: DOC and Sub
PostPosted: Fri Sep 07, 2012 6:37 pm 
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My opinion is that it doesn't matter what DOC you were on if you've been on Suboxone for a long time. It does add to the overall dependence on opiates but your old drugs are long gone. Sub is a powerful enemy of any other opiate and kicks their arse out fast and completely.

Once again, just my opinion and 2¢

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 07, 2012 11:07 pm 
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Even a person on a low dose of Vicodin who ended up on Suboxone would likely find their dose 'creep' up slowly until they hit the ceiling effect.

Dr. J says it himself, that under the ceiling effect (a dose of around 8-12mg) Suboxone acts like an agonist in its dose-response curve. It's because of this many (but not all) people end up try to push their dose up once they become tolerant to get more effect . It's only once they reach their ceiling dose that buprenorphine can work its magic and "trick the brain", and pushing the dose up further has no increased effect. It's for this reason that most people remain on doses above the ceiling effect.

It's for this reason that it doesn't really matter what DOC you were on. Eventually (if you're not careful) you'll find your dose at the ceiling anyway, whether you're a hardcore heroin addict or drank a bit too much cough tincture.

This effect is worse on methadone. I knew a guy who took the occasional panadeine forte (30mg codeine) and some idiot doctor put him on methadone, then over 6-12 months his dose crept from 30mg to 120mg. 120mg is like an induction dose for someone with a VERY LARGE oxy or heroin habit.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 07, 2012 11:17 pm 
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Are you asking if your DOC and the length of time you used your DOC will have an effect on how difficult it will be to taper off of Suboxone? And if the length of time you are on Sub also affects the difficulty of tapering or stopping Suboxone?

If those are your questions, I think the answer is...it depends on the person. We have had people here who were on a high dose of Oxy and did a relatively quick taper and were ok, and people who were on Vicodin and have stayed on Sub for a long time and are having a hard time getting off of it. And pretty much every combination in between.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 08, 2012 7:13 pm 
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i guess what i was trying to say was, when comparing doc w/d to sub w/d do you think that a persons doc has any weight on their success getting off subs?


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2012 7:47 am 
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Unfortunately for me, yes it does.

Studies have shown that people who were addicted to heroin have significantly higher rates of relapse post-Suboxone / post-methadone than those who abused prescription pills.

Why this is they don't know. As an ex-heroin user, I think it might be because of a needle-fixation thing. That and the fact that those who find themselves resorting to IV heroin could have more chance of past trauma or mental health issues because if a person's willing to turn to heroin despite all the stigma and risks and needle-phobias, they gotta have a self-destructive bent. Then there's all the criminal aspects of heroin addiction, and the "culture" thing which many find as addictive as the drug itself. This is opposed to those who may have got hooked on pills after being prescribed them for legitimate reasons.

This is the only real thing I can think of that's been studied and proven.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 29, 2012 11:48 am 
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A few comments after reading this thread.

I went from 400mg / day methadone down to 80mg / day over one month so I could start sub. That month was hell and I used a lot of benzos and other shit (some oxy) as I struggled through it. So I basically switched to sub 24 hours after my last methadone dose and ended up in precipitated withdrawal for 2 days.....the worst suffering that I have ever experienced. My sub dose was 32mg. I went down to 24 after about 3 weeks. Down to 20 after another week and down to 16 after another week and I didn't struggle too bad. I stayed at 16 for a couple of months and went to 12 with no noticable difference. Stayed at 12 for a month or so and went to 8 and same from 8 to 4. This all happened fast, less than a year. Then the struggle started at 4mg to go lower. A year to get to 2mg. Then from 2mg to .5mg took like 2 years, it was hard. My conclusion is that 4mg is the holding dose and when you start to go below that it gets tough. The other cuts were mostly mental, not physical.

My friend was on like 20-25 norcos a day and his sub doctor started him at 16mg. I think he should've started at no more than 4mg, seriously. He is now pissed off and feels stuck at 8mg after over 2 years. He could've done a quick sub detox and probably would've been alright, but the rehab he went to didn't operate that way. This is a big business.

As for the topic, I don't think it matters what you were on before after being on sub for a long time. I do know that jumping even at .5mg is rough and if somone is to jump they should try to go really really low, like .05 liquid taper all that. It would've taken forever and I didn't have the patience. I am glad I jumped and am almost 4 months sub free, but still am on 15mg diazepam a day tapering that. I do not yet feel clean, but I was on like 12mg per day clonazepam (=240mg diazepam) for a few weeks. I developed a slight benzo dependecy, however 15 mg diazepam is nothing. I should be able to taper that over the next month to nothing no problem. I would stop now, but can't sleep for shit and have to go to work. Worst case, I have 3 weeks off for the holidays and if I am still on the diazepam it would be like 2mg per day and I just stop. Withdrawal coudln't be that bad....not compared to what I've gone through. 3 weeks is pleanty of time and the majority of opiate paws should be gone by that point. It isn't yet, I can tell you that and I live a healthy lifestyle other than the benzos. I workout, eat very healthy, attend NA, have routine, etc.

Sub paws is a bitch. It leaves a long lasting depression and moderate anxiety/restlessness that seems to be perpetual, but thanks to the people on this board I know it won't last forever. We do recover.


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