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PostPosted: Tue Mar 22, 2011 12:54 pm 
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by no means did I mean to upset anyone by my post. If I did let me say now I am truely sorry.

I was just suprized to read that she didnt understand the stance that the 12 step program takes. Beleive me.. I dont have a leg to stand on when it come to judging anyone.

I just have been involved with the 12 step program for many years. I always was aware of thier stance on Mt. They NEver condone it. Since the program is base on honesty I never tried to hide my sub use. I did get a lot of useful tool from the program. I am using them daily now that I am off sub and maintaining on morphine till I can get a ibogaine treatment.

So to the writer of this thread... if I hurt your feelings in any way please except my apologes. I didnt mean it that way.

I know there are 12 base groups that are just for those on sub... they consider being on sub clean. there choice. I just never considered myself clean while on sub. To each thier own. But I surely dont expect the AA/NA groups to change thier thoughts just for me .... but ask yourself. Would you consider one on Methadone clean? Whats the difference?

Not really wanting to debate this but just shocked that a person can belong to a group for 5 years and not understand that the organization dosnt see BMT or MMT as being clean. For the fairness of those who are totally drug free.. it would not be fair. Those guys prob. dont care that you chose bmt but I do think it sorta takes away from them to considers mmt or bmt as clean.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 22, 2011 1:16 pm 
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If you look at what "clean" represents - and we've discussed this subject on this forum many times before - the majority of us here do believe that we are clean on opiate replacement therapy. (Although I hate the word "clean".) Being in active addiction includes so many self-destructive and maladaptive behaviors. There's obsession to use, doing anything at all - lying, cheating, stealing to get one's DOC, ruining relationships, jobs, lives, even our freedom - all for the high. Being on opiate replacement therapy - be it methadone or suboxone (unless the person is abusing methadone), or being as we call it in "addiction remission", doesn't have any of those self-destructive behaviors. We are finally in a position to repair our lives and relationships. We're not obsession over and doing absolutely anything to chase a high. Our lives are back to normal or for may of us we have new lives, better lives. "Clean" lives. That is the difference between being clean and not being clean. And that is why most of us - myself included - consider ourselves to be clean while we're on suboxone.

I hope this helps to clarify things for you. I'm also not trying to debate this over this, but it seemed that you were saying you didn't believe that any of us were clean while on suboxone and I felt I needed to explain why we are, in fact, clean. Obviously you are free to your opinion. But I'd hate for someone to come to this forum as a guest or new member and see someone saying that if they start suboxone they won't be clean and have them decide to return to opiates again. That's why I respond to such posts. What it boils down to is we simply will just agree to disagree and that happens all the time on this forum. That's what's great about this place, we respect each other as PEOPLE, even if we don't agree with each others' opinions. :)

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 25, 2011 9:35 am 
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Well, I say to each their own. I know for me I am not clean. I have tried to stop sub in the pass and fell for the "healing" part. I was shock on just how hard it was, not only the dope sickness but I had no idea how to handle the cravings. This I wont be able to learn how to do untill I am no longer on a opiate I guess.

No debate... but words are just words. I know that sub did help me break many bad habits.. just didnt teach me how to live drug free. I have been very involed in NA/AA and also CBT but damn.. again they were just words. Untill I didnt have a opiate in my system did I see that I really got nowhere.

You know... I do think there are some that will need sub for a life time. It is just not my choice. I have had night mares (esp lately) that something would happen and I couldnt get my medication. LIke the thing in Japan. I guess watching the news did contribute to my nightmares but I dont want something like that to happen on USA soil and I be left dope sick when I need my wits to me the most.

so if some one choses sub for life thats a choice they make. And that is cool with me. I know I dont want my kids on this drug..I have seen what its done to me. IF my kid came to me and said they were a herion junkie.. sub would not be my first choice for them. I would do whatever it took to get them in rehab ( one that dont give script for sub as they walk out the door). If that didnot work for them then I may look at other treatment modes avail. Untill I do the ibogaine myself I cant say this would be my choice but I am about to find out.

I know that ibogaine will not take away all the paws since I have been on sub for so long but at least it will give me head start. I have now talk to a hell of alot of folk that chose this method... all say the same. that its not a cure but did give them a running chance. Not all of them stayed clean the first time... but even the ones that went back to dope said it wasnt because of the cravings but because they thought.. "just one more time" then we know what happens after that.

So Hat.. your right. I was not out there lying or stealing to get the sub but I surely was obsessed with it. Maybe your not but it was the first thing I did when I woke up... reached for the sub to be able to get out of bed. When my ins. changed at work and no longer had a precription plan I was totally shocked on what a month worth of sub was costing me. It did keep me from getting dope sick and that is what drove me to it in the first place. Now... well I wish I would of just gone thru a few weeks of wd... but really, who knows if I would of stayed clean.

Now I feel much stronger. I am involved with my support group and practice cbt daily. I feel confidnet that when I am thru the wd process I have enough support to help me stay clean. I do not have the option to stay on sub really. I cant afford them for the rest of my life. They way the ecomomy is going and insurance I dont think ins will pay for this drug for life. ON another site there is a guy thats been on it for 8 years and now the MD says he is getting cut off. Of couse sub doc's say you can jump off at 2mg with minamal wd but I know that was not true for me. And for me whan I was off of it the craving were horrible. Even if I could of had my ins pay for it the rest of my life I dont think I would of stayed on it. It was getting to the point that I couldnt leave my house, answer miy phone. I am not the only one who has had this problem. Way too many others say the same thing so its not in my head. I got to say when it first started to happen with me I though I was just one sick ass soul. It did make me feel better when I read others having the same symptoms. Let me know that I was no just crazy. NOt saying that I dont have underlying psy shit to deal with. I am sure I do. But I want to face them and not oppress them by maintance. Only way to fix them is to face it and work thru it.

Dosnt it make you wonder why so many on the net are haveing the same symptoms? they all cant be lying. I got to say there are anti sub sites out there that I dont want any part of. ONe actually banned me for repeating what a long term member stated in her post. They have a hidden forum and make fun of us poor souls complaining of the sub train. She actually said they give out Ip addresses. I repeated this and they changed my name to sammy something and banned me. Then deleted my post repeating what was already said. I guess I scared them by calling them out on thier game. I think sub and streeet dope did a lot of damage to those folk. Never met such nasty folk that claim they are there to help. Dont know what thier game is but glad to see a site like this that maybe dont think the way I do but at least are willing to let me post.

I have to admit I am scared to death whats gonna happen to me. I pray daily that I will have the strenght to endure and really just grow up. I have too much responsiblitly to continue on with dope. I cant afford suboxone the rest of my life or do I want to be dependent on sub the rest of my life. I know I did this to myself and I have to pay the price for my decision but I am scared. I think my family would be better off if I died and then they would get my life insurance and would be pretty comfortable. I do think of this but now I have some hope again.

Well....thanks for letting me post. It helps me work thru my fears. I really dont want to kill myself, I want to watch my kids grow up. But I also know I cant continue like this either. Rock and hard place. Crazy father that is too scared to walk out the door or answer the phone. Sit on couch all day and watch tv or dead dad that left them money.
I am jealous that sub works for some.. I wish I was part of that some. It just changed me so drasticly that death might be better. I have one more chance I am given it. I pray to God every day that it works for me.

Scared,
Birdie.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 25, 2011 11:20 am 
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I'm so sorry you're having such a hard time. That can't feel good to feel you have no options. And that's what it sounds like where you're at. Have you ever seen an addiction counselor? They could help you to deal with the cravings and triggers that will, as you've seen, come crashing back when someone stops suboxone. That's one of the great things about subs. It gives us the time to get ourselves and our lives back to an overall healthy state. That is what allows us to stay away from relapse and active addiction. I hope you can find a way out of the dark place where you are at. My thoughts are with you. Please hang in there and try to stay positive. Good luck to you.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 22, 2011 9:14 pm 
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I HAD to get this off my chest! Laddertipper, your story is EXACTLY why I am unwilling to even try AA/NA. Any group that holds so tightly to a myopic vision of what it means to be "sober" IS NOT a group I can even support, much less submit myself completely to its process(which is crucial)! Superimpose their ONE SIZE FITS ALL allegiance to ANY other form of medical treatment and you would sound insane. "Take this medicine for your heart, but do not deviate from treatment whatsoever. We do not process new data, we do not adjust the treatment to new developments in heart sciences, we do not adjust the treatment based on your needs, nor do we adjust treatment based on your response to the medication." Yeah, no thx. Besides, since I take a SSRI for the treatment of panic disorder, I would "never be truly sober, never be able to feel reality enough to work the steps thoroughly". It really sucks, since I also know that group therapy tends to have higher long-term success rates. Been taking suboxone for 5yrs now, but had a brief relapse 3yrs ago(not sure of the exact date of my last relapse). And to be honest, I still drink once or twice a month, so not truly "sober" anyway(and yet another reason AA/NA would never fit me).

That said...

CONGRATULATIONS to you, Laddertipper!!! 5yrs of sobriety is fantastic!!! You, and your family, and your friends should be extremely proud of your accomplishment. Keep up the great work and stay strong for the next 5!!! :-D


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 06, 2011 1:24 pm 
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This is simply ridiculous, and I hate to say it, but it is not surprising. So many people "in the rooms" power trip all the time. Who the hell are they to say you are not "clean", I thought that the program was "leaderless". Also, I'd imagine they have done that to other people much earlier in recovery. Like I keep saying, talk like this is dangerous and sends people towards relapsing.

One of my major gripes about the Anonymous programs is it turns lay people into "authorities" regarding chemical dependency. You probably have a better understanding then they do, you certainly have a better understanding of yourself.

There is a guy in my aftercare who is dual diagnosed and keeps relapsing. His sponsor is an "old-timer", and made him give him a list of all the medication he takes. He even allowed his sponsor to talk to his doctor and therapist (signing consents). This seems ludicrous to me. The guy says that he is constantly trying to make his sponsor understand his legitimate need for medication, which obviously adds more stress to a way over stressed person. Obviously, the guy needs to realize that it is time to find a new sponsor.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 07, 2011 11:58 am 
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What a crock of sh*+.

These same people who say that people on Suboxone aren't clean, then go outside and suck down a 2mg's of nicotine while sipping on their 30mg's of caffeine. They'd suffer JUST as much without their smokes as we would without our Suboxone. And their argument? "Smoking doesn't make your life unmanageable". Neither does Suboxone. Go figure?

It's so holier than thou.

How many people must NA kill by telling people they gotta hit their "rock bottom", and that the moment you lapse you "can't stop" because you're "powerless". I believed that shit for years and it nearly killed me, constantly relapsing HARD, overdosing and doing crime because I believed I hadn't hit my "bottom".

The only real rock bottom is 6 foot under, and that's exactly where I would be if I still believed the stuff they fed me.

You can't be too dumb for this program, but you can be too smart..

In other words... don't question our bullshit...


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 07, 2011 12:48 pm 
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Tearjerker,

You just cleared something up for me, the other day at my NA meeting people were sharing about their bottoms(not their asses!! LOL).....you know the drill......been to jail, almost died, lost wife, kids and house. But for me, none of that was true. My bottom was seeing the look of hurt in my wife's eyes one too many times. I thought I'd share my story so any newcomers would understand that you didn't necessarily have to go to jail before you got clean. Well, I shared how my bottom was seeing my wife hurt one too many times and I mentioned how I wanted the newcomer's to know that jail isn't a necessity when it comes to getting clean. When I finished sharing, most every pair of eyes in the room was intently focused on me......I thought I had just dropped some massive knowledge on all these folks, but I also knew by the stares I was geting that something wasn't quite right. I hadn't really thought about it anymore until I read what you just wrote.......now I know they were all wishing instant death upon me and they were NOT blown away with the knowledge I had just dropped on their asses.......Oh Well, that's their problem, not mine!!

A friend of mine from the program desperately needs to start Suboxone, but he's to afraid to do it because he's afraid he won't be welcome anymore. It just stuns my socks off to think that people in NA would shun him because of Suboxone, would they rather see him continue relapsing on a regular basis until he kills himself?? I'm afraid to ask any of them that question for fear of their answer....."some people have to die so we can live."

I've been DYING to ask the cigarette/coffee question to any senior member who would listen to me, but I haven't yet. I'm still fairly new to the program, I'm still enjoying my meetings, but there are certainly some "weird" beliefs that are held dear at the meetings. I take what works for me and I leave the rest of the shit there for them to fret over.

BTW, if I can convince my friend to get on Suboxone and he picks up any static at all from ANY member, I'll be the first one to defend him. That's probably when things are gonna get ugly because I believe that Suboxone, when used properly, is a life changing/life saving medication and I will NOT back down from that stance. Yeah, I imagine that's when the cigarette/coffee thing will come into play.

Anyway, thanks for your insights into NA.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 07, 2011 1:01 pm 
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It's a stupid chip, who cares? Your alive, healthy, and happy; that's all that counts. I'll mail you my 5 year chip if you want. Isn't the program about just for today I am not going to use and in the Big Book they call it a "daily reprieve based on our spiritual condition" or something like that. You'll realize counting time and collecting coins or chips isn't what it's about. Anyway, congradulations. In my eyes you deserved a chip and I'm serious about mailing you mine.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 08, 2011 12:59 am 
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Romeo wrote:
Tearjerker,

You just cleared something up for me, the other day at my NA meeting people were sharing about their bottoms(not their asses!! LOL).....you know the drill......been to jail, almost died, lost wife, kids and house. But for me, none of that was true. My bottom was seeing the look of hurt in my wife's eyes one too many times. I thought I'd share my story so any newcomers would understand that you didn't necessarily have to go to jail before you got clean. Well, I shared how my bottom was seeing my wife hurt one too many times and I mentioned how I wanted the newcomer's to know that jail isn't a necessity when it comes to getting clean. When I finished sharing, most every pair of eyes in the room was intently focused on me......I thought I had just dropped some massive knowledge on all these folks, but I also knew by the stares I was geting that something wasn't quite right. I hadn't really thought about it anymore until I read what you just wrote.......now I know they were all wishing instant death upon me and they were NOT blown away with the knowledge I had just dropped on their asses.......Oh Well, that's their problem, not mine!!

Anyway, thanks for your insights into NA.


Romeo. Take my opinions about NA with a grain of salt. I had some bad experiences with those rooms towards the end. That being said, I also had many fantastic months where life was very "full", going to the gym every day, beach, drinking heaps of coffee, doing a meeting a day and some part time work. Sometimes I forget that just because of how soured things got towards the end.

As for the whole glaring at you thing. You never know what they were thinking. They could have been listening intently. Us folk can make a lot of errors when we start to try and mind read. There are also so many formalities and rules about what you can / can't share about, that it's easy for people to err at times.

If you wanna prescribe to the 12 step ideas, the rock bottom should be wherever you said you've "had enough" IMO. For me, ironically, that wasn't the lowest point in my addiction by a LONG shot. The lowest points in my addiction were in the relapses I did with other people from NA trying to find my rock bottom. NA almost became a criminal university for a little while.

If NA works for you, don't listen to my stuff. It would hurt me to think I could be sabotaging some people's choice of recovery path. I forgot some important things that I've now learnt:

- If you choose to believe in a "bottom", it's something personal to you and you don't have to share it.
- If you happen to lapse, you can stop. You don't have to go lower. There is such thing as a lapse.
- Don't do what I did, and walk to your dealers saying "well I'm powerless anyway". I don't think that's what they mean by powerless, of being powerless over the mental obsession. Or at least I hope not.
- Clean time does not equal being well.
- Another person's advice is not always better than your own choices. In early recovery, you're told not to make your own decisions, as you're too unwell. So for a while I let myself be at the mercy of other's decision making. Let's just say, clean time does not equal being noble.

Just take what works for you, and leave the rest. Maybe I thought too much about the whole thing. If I took my own advice and just took from NA what I needed, I would probably still be there today.


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