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PostPosted: Sat Mar 03, 2012 6:03 am 
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Caboose - I (and Dr. Junig) have both opined similar things when it came to talking about suboxone possibly "stifling" one's emotions. In my opinion, emotions are such an extremely complex issue involving both nature and nurture, mental health, traumas we've suffered, different types of body hormones, brain neurotransmitters, even just growing older, and many many other things. Just adding one medication can't possibly override so many other variables and take control of all of one's emotions and blunt them.

Try to keep in mind that whatever you are feeling or not feeling also has much to do with these other things as well, no matter how suboxone might also be affecting you. I'm just saying don't overlook other factors.

Do you see a therapist or counselor? If you've had an addiction problem, to anything, chances are you might have had a problem dealing with your emotions to begin with. Many (most?) addicts (not all) used to push our emotions down- the ones that we simply cannot deal with. You might want to consider that as well. I'm also trying to say to look at the big picture. And a therapist can be very helpful when it comes to learning the best way to handle and face one's own emotions. If a person ever used drugs to push their emotions down and then all of a sudden the go on suboxone for treatment and it doesn't have the same effect of stifling those feelings like the pain pills did, so we're left perhaps to push them down on our own? Just a theory I have.

And try not to focus on what got your here. It's over and done and you can't go backwards. This is where you are now and you might be best served to try to accept that in order to deal with your current situation to the best of your ability.

If you focus on your recovery and how your will be best prepared to live on your own without suboxone, then use this time to get ready for that. Prepare to deal with your cravings and triggers, learn new coping skills, see that therapist, etc, etc. That's what recovery is about. Fixing all that broken shit in our lives that landed us in active addiction in the first place.

Sorry to drone on....I wish you the very best. You, like many before you, can successfully taper off suboxone. Just be ready for when you do it, so that you can be successful in your efforts and do so without relapsing. Take care and keep us posted on your progress.

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 Post subject: Just sayin
PostPosted: Sat Mar 03, 2012 12:51 pm 
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My first 4 years on sub were great, so I thought. I am six years in now and life has changed. I don't believe you can stay on this stuff long term forever, it kills something in your brain, research is now showing that. That happy feeling will go away after a while and you I have found I am now a shell of who I was. This stuff was never meant for long term, do the research guys. When the time comes and you have to get off due to the side effects (like me) you will see the hell, i have detoxed from all sorts of stuff and this is by far the worse.
My memory is so bad now, I had a scan compared to five years ago, and sub had made a mess of my brain receptors and it is bad, I have forgotten all sorts of important life events, so sad. Early dementia at age 37 I don't it, Suboxone induced mess. Do your research guys, soon there will be a huge law suit coming to surface. I hate to bear bad news, but this stuff might get yanked and that will be a mess


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 Post subject: Re: Just sayin
PostPosted: Sat Mar 03, 2012 1:47 pm 
ontoolong wrote:
My first 4 years on sub were great, so I thought. I am six years in now and life has changed. I don't believe you can stay on this stuff long term forever, it kills something in your brain, research is now showing that. That happy feeling will go away after a while and you I have found I am now a shell of who I was. This stuff was never meant for long term, do the research guys. When the time comes and you have to get off due to the side effects (like me) you will see the hell, i have detoxed from all sorts of stuff and this is by far the worse.
My memory is so bad now, I had a scan compared to five years ago, and sub had made a mess of my brain receptors and it is bad, I have forgotten all sorts of important life events, so sad. Early dementia at age 37 I don't it, Suboxone induced mess. Do your research guys, soon there will be a huge law suit coming to surface. I hate to bear bad news, but this stuff might get yanked and that will be a mess


I think you are exaggerating a bit (about the lawsuit and Sub getting yanked, NOT about your illness), but I agree with your general premise. I think people should take extreme caution with long-term use. I myself have been on a year and a half. I only take half to 3/4 of a milligram a day, but I have temporarily halted my taper and this post and thread has given me renewed desire to get back to it. I am so sorry for what you are going through. I think that doctors suggest long term use before they even know what long-term use does to the body and mind. Its all about the benjamins in this industry, not much different than the homies selling dope. Are you tapering your Sub? How are you doing? Hopefully, as you come off Sub, you will start to eventually feel right again


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 04, 2012 2:44 am 
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Ontoolong,

I don't want to be rude but I think you need to be careful what you say......
You say there are studies that state "sub kills something in your brain." What does
This even mean?

Where are you getting this info? Bupe has actually been around for a long time and is a very safe medication.
We need to make sure this site is giving correct information so people can make informed decisions about suboxone.

I don't doubt you are getting side effects but not everyone feels like you do.
Many people have been able to taper off this med with little discomfort.

And you are really bringing a law suit against sub?


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 05, 2012 9:25 am 
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If you have some of that research you keep referring to, please share it with us. Otherwise, there are zero long-term studies regarding suboxone that I'm aware of, so what you are saying is pure panicky speculation. We like to provide only accurate information here, so when you start mentioning research, please provide a link to your citation.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 05, 2012 11:12 am 
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hatmaker510 wrote:
If you have some of that research you keep referring to, please share it with us. Otherwise, there are zero long-term studies regarding suboxone that I'm aware of, so what you are saying is pure panicky speculation. We like to provide only accurate information here, so when you start mentioning research, please provide a link to your citation.


I AGREE!!

It sounds like he wanted to make himself feel better about saying that (about the lawsuit) so he added "do your research".

Well, people HAVE done research, and unless you have access to something nobody else does, there's not any out there that brings ANY validity to what you've said.

And you know what? I've been on Suboxone nearly as along as you have..and I don't have ANY of that. PERIOD. if Suboxone had this "brain-killing" power, then I'd be a prime candidate for such alterations..but alas, I'm still hitting pretty high on the IQ tests and recently took a college entrance exam, and also a nuclear generation plant entrance exam..all of which showed pretty decent intelligence. Surely, with such long-term use of Suboxone (July will be 4 years)...I would have some obvious signs or at the very least, the beginning stages of what you've said here.

I think this should be on an episode of Scare Tactics on the Chiller channel..


Is it just me, or are there more and more people who have underlying issues (like, they existed before the Suboxone), and once they get into treatment, when these same issues surface, they blame the Suboxone as the root cause? Nobody says "Well, all the years of ________ abuse likely did some damage..."....oh no..they blame a drug that they've barely used a year or less...not the umpteen years of opiate ABUSE.

Hmm..let's weigh that..

Opiate ABUSE ---- LARGE factor.
Suboxone USE --- REALLY? Primary cause for most people who want to have something to point the finger at.

I mean really..if I was going to say that something had caused me some sort of physical damage..I think I would first blame the THOUSANDS of milligrams of OXYCONTIN that I shoved up my nose...NOT the Suboxone that I've barely scratched the surface as far as in comparison to use/abuse.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 05, 2012 8:46 pm 
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I totally agree jonathanm....

I have been on sub for 2 years and am functioning very well. I'm an RN and have no problems with my brain!

It does seem like some people want to blame suboxone for everything that goes wrong in their life. I just don't understand these people.
Years of opiate use and how addicts tend to neglect their general health can cause problems for sure.

Congrats on your sweet new baby girl!


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2012 3:26 pm 
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Hatmaker- you are right. And I must thank you for repeatedly giving me good, long advice. I've been browsing these forums for a while now before joining, and I always thought you were one of the more helpful members. I must thank you for your efforts.

But yeah, Suboxone is not all there is to blame regarding my problems and the way I feel. I had bad anxiety and depression issues before use, and abusing drugs only exacerbated the problem. I just feel like since I was never to the point of daily use over a long period of time, and now I am with Suboxone, I feel like all of my problems have gotten worse because of it. True, I would have these problems due to the other factors you mentioned, but I feel like they're worse now and harder to deal with than ever before. It could also be that I have no crutch now, when before I got used to using whenever these disorders made me feel unpleasant emotions, I don't have something to rely on anymore. Well, I guess I still use Suboxone (and recently occasionally weed), since I am not getting truly high from daily Suboxone use I can never fully forget about my problems. But I just feel like Suboxone is making it hard, for me at least (I know it can be very helpful to many people who deserve it) to get over and change my bad habits. Being on Suboxone makes it too easy to just zone out in front of the TV, isolating myself too often from my family and friends, just because it's comfortable.

But your right, I gotta stop beating myself up over this decision. Yes, it ended up being more harmful to me than helpful, but I just have to forgive myself because my mind was still clouded with drugs at the time I made the decision, it was my addict brain talking. Once I do this it should be easier to move on and focus primarily on successfully weaning down.

Sorry for this being so long, I always tend to ramble on because I'm so desperate for help. During the beginning of my sub treatment I got checked for ADD and got diagnosed with it and put on stimulants. Now I'm not sure if I really have this and most likely have now developed an addiction to the Adderall as well. Its just so hard to give up because it's been the only med I've found to help with my social anxiety, and it's also doing wonders for depression. After 8 months of daily use I came to the realization that taking uppers and downers to get up in the morning, then uppers to stay up and get all my stuff done during the day, and then downers to put me to sleep at night, can't be good for my body.

Its just so hard as if I dont take Adderall or smoke weed, I'll be in a constant depression, feeling like every day turned out to be a bad day, and that can't be productive towards recovery. I'm hoping I can cut out the adderall soon and maybe just use weed if I happen to be feeling too bad for too long. Not going back to daily use, but trying to space it out as far as I can until I feel like I need to view that light at the end of the tunnel again, it always instills me with a sense of hope.

I think my problem was I had an addiction to both opiates and weed, When I entered rehab I had no intention of giving up weed, just the opiates, but was forced to due to drug testing. Now Im with an independent sub doctor who doesn't drug test, and I think it was a mistake to try and give up both my addiction at the same time. Ive always heard from people that it's more effective and easier to give up one thing at a time, starting with the most dangerous one. Of course, going on daily suboxone treatment, my DOC, changes things quite a bit. My theory is that because giving up my 2 favorite substances, or at least getting high from them, that I started to find relief through Adderall instead. Now I'm hoping I can mostly get rid of the Adderall and replace it with a much safer alternative, weed. Or maybe I need to stay on both, occasionally, until I get rid of the catalyst, the suboxone, the hardest of all three drugs, and then knock off the other two.

Not sure of the best way to go about this situation.
Any advice would be greatly appriciated


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2012 4:31 pm 
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Ah, Adderall. It's a tough one - are you ADD or not? Let me ask you this, when you take it does it calm you down and allow you to focus and concentrate or does it make you happy and energetic and "up"? If it's the former, chances are you are ADD (that's how they respond to Adderall and such meds), but if it's the latter, that's the reaction most people who are NOT ADD have when they take amphetamines. What the med does to you when you take it and how it makes you feel can be a good indicator of whether you're really ADD or not. At least that's how I see it. Think about it, anyone, non-ADD, will feel less depressed and have less social anxiety by taking uppers, and that's basically what Adderall is for people who are non-ADD/ADHD.

Now having said all that, it's not my place to tell you what to do with that diagnosis or that medication. That's for you (and your doctor) to discuss and figure out. It could also be that you might do better on a lower dose. That's why it's best to go over this with a doctor, probably a psychiatrist or an ADD/ADHD specialist. But you're right, you are probably dependent on it by now.

As for the pot, personally, I'm not one of those hard-core recovering people who thinks opiate-addicts shouldn't smoke pot. I think opiate addicts should stay away from opiates and aside from that, each person needs to make their own determination based on their own issues and challenges.

May I ask, are you on an antidepressant? If not, have you considered going on one? I'm asking because you do SOUND depressed. Plus, many people tapering off suboxone go on an AD because the depression that goes with opiate withdrawals can be pretty severe and they can help to counteract that depression for many people. It's something to consider and again, to talk to your doctor about. Even if suboxone has something to do with your apathy, and I'm not convinced it does, it could also be major depression contributing as well. And an AD could help that just enough to get you up and moving. It's worth thinking about though, right? Anyway, those are my thoughts. I guess we're both long-winded today. Sorry about that.

My last thought for you is just try not to over-think the whole situation and get to perseverating on everything. That will just make you more depressed and more anxious. Go on about your life. Plan a flexible taper, but don't obsess on it. The slower your taper and the lower you get before stopping the easier your w/d symptoms should be. Remember that and your taper should go fine. And try to stay optimistic.

(And thank you very much for the kind words. You made me smile. :mrgreen: )

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2012 5:11 pm 
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Just to give you guys hope that are suffering from this terrible possible side effect of suboxone. I was on subs for close to five years for addiction and pain management my dose being 32/16mgs but leveled out at 24mgs most days. And like many of you i became emotionless (side note i started a thread called emotionless alot of great info check it out) i was the shell of a human when it came to emotions at one point. I literally sat in my bed room not wanting to have anything to do with life. I cant tell u how many friends i lost during my time on suboxone bc i didnt want to be around anyone i didnt have and feel the need for acceptance or emotional support i was zombie basically. I did not feel anything no matter how god or bad. I lost someone very close to me i didnt even shead one single tear or feel sad alone nothing. I also watched my brother get married nd felt no joy whatsoever and i continued to live my life like this for a long time. And i want to state before suboxone i had no depression issues nothing of that matter and now off suboxone i dont so that leaves one cause.

Anyways the point of my post is to let u know that things do get better if u can get off of suboxone. I switched to methadone for better pain management and just a couple months off subs i started to feel emotions i havent felt in years. I love music again, socializing, spending time with my family, going out to do things and so much more. I mean shit i even cry during real sad movies now. So this feeling of having no emotions does and can go away it is not permanent. so use this as a goal to help with your recovery and goal of finishin!g your suboxone treatment its important that we as humans feel certain emotions!

Am i stating this is a fact and is 100% suboxone doing i cant say that. But i can say for myself i believe with all my hart that suboxon was the main cause of losing my emotions while on it. Bc i didnt have these issues before sub treatment and i dont have these problems now off suboxon

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2012 5:52 pm 
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Bboy - Do you by chance remember those arguments we used to have about suboxone allegedly removing ALL of your emotions? I do. I also remember how VERY ANGRY you used to get. Do you remember that as well? Apparently you don't, because you're still sitting here saying you had ZERO emotions, none good or bad. So what would you call all that anger you have shown so clearly on many an occasion on this very forum? Isn't anger an emotion? I'm curious then how you can continue saying you had ZERO emotions on sub when you clearly were expressing emotions right here for people to see. It's obvious that you did have emotions, but for some reason you're not choosing to acknowledge them.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2012 6:02 pm 
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The topic of why some people seem to do so well on Suboxone vs. those folks who don't seem to do quite as well while on Suboxone has intrigued me for a good while.

A thought occurred to me while driving home from work today. Suboxone is not a "cure" for addiction, Suboxone, when used properly, eliminates our cravings for opiates, it really doesn't address our addiction, other than our cravings.

Addiction is a complex, deep rooted disorder (disease). The disorder of addiction consists of much more than simply craving drugs. Eliminating the cravings to use drugs, which Suboxone does wonderfully, is a big step in addressing addiction, but that leaves a shit-load of other behaviors, thoughts, impulses and just general wacky thinking that us addicts are prone to.

This line of thinking got me to wondering if maybe the people who seem to do well on Suboxone are participating in their recovery more than those of us who didn't do so well on Suboxone? Many of the complaints from people on Suboxone could be attributed to the disorder of addiction, because like I said, Suboxone really doesn't treat addiction, it just kills the cravings.

IS ANY OF THIS MAKING ANY DAMN SENSE?? It makes sense in my head, but it's not coming out my finger tips properly!!!

BTW, I am NOT trying to diminish the complaints or experiences of people who have a bad go with Suboxone, I'm one of the people who started having serious trouble with my Suboxone!!! I'm just asking the question.....is Suboxone really to blame or is it our underlying addiction not being addressed that's causing the issues or is it a combination of BOTH Suboxone and not addressing our addiction???

I hope this made some kind of damn sense because it is an interesting topic that I'd love to see some feedback on.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2012 6:38 pm 
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Romeo wrote:
The topic of why some people seem to do so well on Suboxone vs. those folks who don't seem to do quite as well while on Suboxone has intrigued me for a good while.

A thought occurred to me while driving home from work today. Suboxone is not a "cure" for addiction, Suboxone, when used properly, eliminates our cravings for opiates, it really doesn't address our addiction, other than our cravings.

Addiction is a complex, deep rooted disorder (disease). The disorder of addiction consists of much more than simply craving drugs. Eliminating the cravings to use drugs, which Suboxone does wonderfully, is a big step in addressing addiction, but that leaves a shit-load of other behaviors, thoughts, impulses and just general wacky thinking that us addicts are prone to.

This line of thinking got me to wondering if maybe the people who seem to do well on Suboxone are participating in their recovery more than those of us who didn't do so well on Suboxone? Many of the complaints from people on Suboxone could be attributed to the disorder of addiction, because like I said, Suboxone really doesn't treat addiction, it just kills the cravings.

IS ANY OF THIS MAKING ANY DAMN SENSE?? It makes sense in my head, but it's not coming out my finger tips properly!!!

BTW, I am NOT trying to diminish the complaints or experiences of people who have a bad go with Suboxone, I'm one of the people who started having serious trouble with my Suboxone!!! I'm just asking the question.....is Suboxone really to blame or is it our underlying addiction not being addressed that's causing the issues or is it a combination of BOTH Suboxone and not addressing our addiction???

I hope this made some kind of damn sense because it is an interesting topic that I'd love to see some feedback on.


I actually find this concept very interesting!

Is the medication suboxone and methadone really doing anything for our addiction, besides taking cravings away? I would like to say i can answere this question but i would be lying because at the end of the day i cant! I know methadone played a big role in my recovery treating my pain issues and cravings but has it helped my mental addiction i say yes it has but that was only after getting good pain management treatment. hmmmmmmmmmm

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2012 6:59 pm 
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I think it definitely makes a difference. But consider this first: There are the people like Dr. Junig. who believe that all it takes to be in successful recovery/remission is to take suboxone. And as long as you take it, you'll fine and will stay in remission. Nothing else needs to be done.

Personally, I SORT OF agree with this - allow me to explain. It's because I almost see it in myself, here's why: I don't see an addictionologist or go to NA/AA or any other recovery anything other than this forum. I do see an individual therapist, but I was always seeing him, way before my addiction. And to be honest, we rarely discuss my addiction. Nor does my sub doctor, because he writes my scripts for pain and not addiction. So you see, I do very little "recovery" work. I do my therapy and work on my overall self and take my suboxone. I don't think about opiates, I don't crave opiates, I can even hold a bottle of opiates in my hand and think nothing of it (that happened recently and I didn't even realize it until way later), and I've had no relapses since my sub tx began 3+ years ago. I think I'm doing really well and I can see the progress I've made over that time period. And what have I done? Some people would say not very much. Dr. Junig would probably say suboxone maintenance is working for me the way it's supposed to.

Remember he also usually says once off suboxone, the patient should replace the suboxone with meetings. His theory is without one or the other, the chances of relapse is very high. I don't know if I'm explaining this well, but if you've done much reading of his blog, this will ring familiar to you.

So, there's that usage of suboxone, which I clearly know many, many people on this forum don't believe or agree with. And as I said, I KIND OF see what he means. But the general consensus is exactly what you said, Romeo, that along with suboxone, the best chance for success in recovery/remission is to WORK on oneself, work a program or something of some kind. And I agree that bad habits need to be changed and cravings and triggers identified. Why not do the most work and get the most benefit out of it?

True, I could do only what I'm doing, minus the therapy and I'd probably still be relapse-free and still call myself "successful" in my remission, but you know what? With my therapy I'm actually a much better person in so many ways and to me THAT is what makes a successful recovery/remission. In other words, I (as an example) could do less and still succeed, but the fact that I'm doing more work in therapy because I CHOOSE to is not only beneficial to me as an individual human being, but it's also the best thing I can do for myself as a recovering addict. To me that IS working on my recovery/remission in the best way possible.

What I'm getting at is I do believe it has a LOT to do with what else the person does while they are taking suboxone. Yes, I KIND OF think that - depending on the person and their unique issues - that MAYBE taking suboxone is enough on its own to live a normal life, but is it enough for everyone or anyone? Not necessarily. We are all sick to varying degrees and we all have different needs when it comes to what we need to heal. I know suboxone alone is not enough for me. I want - NEED - to make a lot more changes than just taking another medication. I MUST make more changes in order for me to fix my life. That's what I KNOW about myself.

And everyone else also has to decide what they need for themselves. But I do think that you are right and that what they do or don't do along with their medication can or will make an impact on how well they do on their sub treatment.

Now, the REAL question is could I have said all this with half the words? :lol: (I guess I can't get my words out of my head and onto paper today either.) UGH! Shutting the hell up now.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2012 7:00 pm 
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Romeo, You hit the nail on the head! Steve


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2012 7:16 pm 
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Somewhere in my original post, I meant to clarify that recovery does not necessarily mean NA/AA or any therapy. Any kind of self improvement qualifies as recovery, IMO, so I agree with you Hat.

I guess as I started thinking of some of the issues I was experiencing while on Suboxone, they started to line up with some of the stuff I hear at NA and it got me to wondering if it was my addiction acting up that was causing some of the issues??

The more I think of it, having Suboxone, even though it's a partial agonist, did cause some of the issues, but I really think some of it was just my addiction busting through. Had I been aware of it, I could have put more effort into addressing those issues through some kind of self improvement (recovery) and I may not have felt the need to quit Suboxone?

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2012 7:40 pm 
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DON'T GO THERE, ROMEO! Don't second guess yourself now. It does little good to go back and wonder if you made the right decision when it's already been done. You are HERE now and you have today as your opportunity to work YOUR recovery, whatever you determine that is for you. And I really believe that is truly the key: Each person must find their own way for themselves and their own unique healing needs.

But I definitely think that what a person is doing or not doing AND their whole attitude about suboxone as well, will play a very large role in how "successful" they are in their suboxone treatment.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2012 8:04 pm 
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I went to read this post from the beginning so I could understand everything that was being discussed, and I noticed that Ironic AND NoAlibi posted two different responses on page 1. And each response said he or she was taking a different amount of Suboxone...LOL!? Were they really the same person I wonder??

Sorry to bring up a sore subject...just thought that was odd.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2012 8:20 pm 
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Hey Hat, I'm not really having any second thoughts about getting off of Suboxone, I'm very happy with my decision to get off of Suboxone, for me, it was the right thing to do.

I guess these questions I'm raising are more for the person who is still on Suboxone and having some side effects that are bothering them. Before they go ahead and decide to quit Suboxone, they might ask themselves some of those questions first. There just seems to be so many people who come to this forum who aren't happy with Suboxone and some of the side effects they list may stem from their addiction, not so from much Suboxone?

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2012 8:26 pm 
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100% AGREED!

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