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 Post subject: Detox
PostPosted: Sun Oct 17, 2010 12:53 pm 
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I posted in another topic for myself yesterday, this one is for my husband. He has been taking percocet, oxy, vicodin, any opiate for a little over a year now. It started out with the Dr. prescribing it for pain (he is a surgery candidate for his back problems), then it quickly turned to an addiction and him buying it off the street. Well we have lost a lot and learned alot. I have been clean for 3 days( I know not long at all) and he wants to follow in my foot steps. He has the brilliant idea of going to Iowa with his brother for the week to detox. I told him that I think he should go to a detox/rehab center. He has been before and only lasted two days before he was out and using. He doesn't want to go this route because he doesn't trust himself in a facility, because he can just walk out anytime he wants. I told him that at least there they can dispense medication for him to lessen the withdrawal symptoms. He has a VERY high tolerance. He takes about 105mg of oxy at a time and about 420mg a day. I really don't think it is safe for him to come off CT with no help at all.

What could I say to him to change his mind or is it okay for him to detox by himself for a week?


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 19, 2010 12:45 pm 
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Dear Terry,

I don't know where your other post is. Perhaps you have been answered there, but in any event, I just noticed this one and I don't know why it has not been answered.

Here's my opinion. At 420 mg of Oxy per day, he is going to become very, very ill if he just stops taking it. It is very dangerous for him to do so without medical supervision! He need to be medicated and medically monitored during this time. I would strongly encourage him to go to in-pt detox. If he walks out, then he is not ready yet. Has he given any thought to trying Suboxone?

I wish you both well in your quest for sobriety.

Sincerely, Rossma


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 19, 2010 12:53 pm 
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Hi Terry -

Rossma gives good advice, as usual. The thing with addiction and our DOC is that no matter what we try or how many times we try it, we just can't seem to get off it and stay off it. That's the great thing about sub - while we're on it our life is healthier and and it's possible to taper off of it. Is he willing to try suboxone himself? Even though he'll get medical supervision if he were to go inpatient - and comfort meds - what are the odds that he'll STAY off? That's where sub can come in. Sorry if it sounds like I'm pushing it. I'm not, just telling you what it's there for. Good luck to you both!

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 Post subject: Re: Detox
PostPosted: Tue Oct 19, 2010 2:41 pm 
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Well, heck, I'll push it, because it seems like the most logical solution to this problem in this instance. It sounds to me like Suboxone is THE answer, possibly even the ONLY answer for your husband.

Look, I'm going to quote something you wrote in your post, Terry:

terry85 wrote:
He has the brilliant idea of going to Iowa with his brother for the week to detox. I told him that I think he should go to a detox/rehab center. He has been before and only lasted two days before he was out and using. He doesn't want to go this route because he doesn't trust himself in a facility, because he can just walk out anytime he wants.


I don't mean any offense here, but this is classic twisted, addict "logic" at work here. Does he think his brother is going to handcuff him to a radiator or something? He'll be just as free to leave his brother's house as he will be to leave a detox. Plus, if he's afraid to go to detox because he "can just walk out any time he wants" then guess what? He WILL walk out. In fact, he's already planning it.

Based on the dosages you're posting here, he's going to be pretty sick if he quits cold turkey. GET HIM ON SUBOXONE! Then he can at least manage the problem and taper himself off with some level of comfort.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 19, 2010 3:29 pm 
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Junkie781, you are absolutely right when you say he was already planning to leave. He left his brother's house and had a friend picked him up and met his dealer. This is after we found him a bed at a hospital for detox. I've noticed that he isn't really serious about getting clean. He knows about suboxone, he just doesn't want to go that route. His addiction is stronger than anything in his life right now. I have made a decision to stay on the path I am right now, I don't want to relapse, and I'm not going to lie right now I feel like shit. I'm angry that he brought this into our lives and I'm angry that he doesn't want to get help. I feel like I don't even know him anymore. In fact today is his birthday and I haven't even heard from him all day, I am pissed and sitting here crying. He has the connections to get the oxy's, but I know that if I asked for some he would give them to me (so in a way I'm glad I haven't talked to him today.)

I think I am going to take some one's advice and find a doctor that can prescribe me suboxone legally. I don't want to end up worse off like him and I really want to stay clean. I have medicaid, so I'm not sure how that works. There is NO way I can afford the medication and the doctor's visits on my own.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 19, 2010 3:33 pm 
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You have gotten a few good comments and suggestions so far, especially from Junkie. I hate to have to disagree with a few of the other comments - actually I sometimes feel like "the truth squad" or "myth busters" here on this site, but I just very strongly feel that it is important to make sure we have accurate information on the boards, and often will take it upon myself to try to correct information that may not be accurate. In that theme:

"At 420 mg of Oxy per day, he is going to become very, very ill if he just stops taking it. It is very dangerous for him to do so without medical supervision! He need to be medicated and medically monitored during this time."

Actually, while someone on this high of a level of opiates will certainly get very ill when they stop, it is not dangerous for them and they do not require medical supervision. That is not the case with all substances. However, with opiates, while you may feel like you are going to die, you will not. DO NOT confuse this with either benzodiazepine drugs (valium, xanax, atavan, etc.) or with alcohol. When dealing with these substances/drugs you do not ever want to detox without help and medication. If you do, you are risking life-threatening seizures, among other risks. That is just not the case with opiates. I just don't want someone coming along and picking up a new excuse as to why they can't detox "It would be dangerous for me to stop opiates on my own, therefore I'm not going to stop." That's just not true.

I think that Junkie hit the rest of the story on the head. As addicts, we'll often try to come up with all sorts of reasons why we can't stop our addiction. There are many ways to go about it from 12-step, in-patient, out-patient, methadone, Suboxone, etc. and all have the merits. Doing it on our own, "cold-turkey" without assistance will rarely result in success but it most certainly will not kill you and it most certainly is not dangerious - that is just medical fact.


Last edited by donh on Tue Oct 19, 2010 4:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 19, 2010 4:06 pm 
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Donh, I know exactly what you are saying. I am an RN with 3 advanced certifications, and have worked for many, many years in acute hospital settings, in the field of addiction medicine for 2 years, and in public health for 8 years. Let me explain why I wrote that the way I did. It was tainted by my experiences, I’m afraid. Yes, you are correct in saying that we won't die due to physiological ramifications from opiate withdrawal, but from my experiences with it both in-patient (X 4) and at home (X-many), I sure as hell felt like I was dying and did everything in my power to hasten the process. In fact this remains my very worst fear as an addict, and as a person.

For me, feeling that bad is dangerous. One time I was in the hospital in ICU and the doctor just decided that I was an addict and he was not going to give me any more narcotics. I was on Methadone 40 mg a day at that time plus they had giving me IV Dilaudid q 2 h. It was all stopped. I went into withdrawal. I felt so very bad, that I just did not want to live any more! They were giving me IV Potassium which burned like hell and they had my wrists restrained because I kept turning down the rate on my IV. I got them untied and then tied the wrist restraint to a hook on the ceiling and tied the other end around my neck, and stepped off of the bed. I hung for a moment or two and then the restraint broke and I crashed to the ground, much to my dismay at the time. (I have no idea why I lived but I am grateful today.) I have also had 3 other suicide attempts in the past and they happened at times when I was using and had run out of drugs and I was going into withdrawal.

So to clarify, I meant that it is dangerous in the sense that support and monitoring is needed. Perhaps a person who is mentally stronger than me could go through it with no problem but from my personal experiences alone I am going to stand by my statement that it is dangerous for someone to detox from high doses of opiates without some kind of support or monitoring.

Sorry this is so long.

Sincerely,
Rossma


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 19, 2010 8:12 pm 
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P.S.

Anyway, Terry, I am really thinking about you tonight for some reason. You have started on the road to recovery, and it is not an easy one. You are doing great and you are being very brave! I think that you should worry about yourself right now. It would be wonderful if you could find a doctor and get Suboxone prescribed for you. For me it helped so very much and has changed my life! I am not sure how it works with Medicaid but certainly it wouldn't hurt to check into it. Once you start to feel better maybe your husband would see that and change his mind. As we all know, we can't help someone who is in an active addiction, no matter how badly we want to. He has to want it himself. Hopefully in time it will happen for him too.

My thoughts are with you...hang in there, OK?

~Rossma


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 Post subject: Thank you
PostPosted: Tue Oct 19, 2010 11:43 pm 
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rossma wrote:
P.S.

Anyway, Terry, I am really thinking about you tonight for some reason. You have started on the road to recovery, and it is not an easy one. You are doing great and you are being very brave! I think that you should worry about yourself right now. It would be wonderful if you could find a doctor and get Suboxone prescribed for you. For me it helped so very much and has changed my life! I am not sure how it works with Medicaid but certainly it wouldn't hurt to check into it. Once you start to feel better maybe your husband would see that and change his mind. As we all know, we can't help someone who is in an active addiction, no matter how badly we want to. He has to want it himself. Hopefully in time it will happen for him too.

My thoughts are with you...hang in there, OK?

~Rossma


I want to truly thank you for keeping me in your thoughts. It really means a lot to me. I don't have anyone that I can discuss this with. Either no one understands or I just don't feel like being judged. It's heartbreaking to see my husband become a different person. Hell, it was heartbreaking to see myself become a different person. I have horrible insomnia and it has given me time to think about this past year. I'm scared.


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 Post subject: Hi Terry
PostPosted: Wed Oct 20, 2010 2:40 am 
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Hi Terry, I just wanted to say that with Medicaid you can probably get the Suboxone and they pay for the Doctor too. Although covearge is different in every State in the U.S., I feel it's worth it to give Medicaid a call & ask. I have MediCARE and everything is covered in my treatment. I have a $25.00 co-pay for a monthly RX. That's it. Not bad. I have heard that MedicAID covers even more things than MedicARE. [font=Arial Black] [/font].

I can imagine how worried you must feel for your husband but you have to take care of yourself so that you have the strength & stamina to take care of him. He is going to need you because I see that you are the stronger one in this situation.

Good luck to you and give Medicaid a call about coverage and look for a Sub doctor asap if it's covered. I hope so. Please keep us informed. I really want to know how things turn out for you.

Love & hope, Queenie


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