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PostPosted: Sat May 22, 2010 8:59 pm 
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Hey everyone,

Well first off let me state that my first dose of suoxone begins tomorrow... and because of my current siuation.. i am NOT going to be getting them from a doctor or prescription. (No insurance nor Money)...

I have been reading very thoroughly about suboxones and the extent of the treatment process, but because I am obtaining them from a different source.. I am unable to obtain professional guidance... But I feel that wisdom and someone that speaks from experience would have more to say that I would want to listen to....

Background-

*Started Oxycontin 80mg, due to my depression after a sudden breakup with my ex (5 yr relationship)
*Been on Oxy for 1 1/2 years... though for the last 3 months, I have been on 80 mg everyday... before that.. it was the occassional high once a week, then turned into a couple times a week.. and stayed like that for the whole time until it increased to 80mg everyday for the last 3 months...
*Mentally I'm ready for sobriety


So yea... I'm just kinda curious at what dosage should i start on?? I was told that my current Oxy dosage and time under the influence isn't as severe as usual cases.. but Suboxones will most definitely help me get clean... I was thinking about starting at 2mg daily... then start tapering off after 2 weeks... then after a month just stopping it altogether...

So I guess my question is.. Is 2mg too low? or should I aim a little higher? and I honestly do not want to be on suboxones for an extended period of time.. is it possible within the timeframe a suboxone patient recommended me?

ANY HELP OR INPUT TOWARDS THE MATTER IS GREATLY APPRECIATED..

THANKS EVERYONE!


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PostPosted: Sun May 23, 2010 1:54 am 
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LOL hey thanks guys... the help was very much appreciated


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 Post subject: Daily dose
PostPosted: Sun May 23, 2010 2:46 am 
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I've been on subutex for almost 2 weeks, and am prescribed 4 mg/day. Price for generic: 60 tablets were under $80 (Walgreens).

I take 0.5 mg/day, one-fourth of a 2mg tablet, plus a tiny crumb in the late afternoon when I get tired. I feel great on the dose. I have no cravings.

I used norco for 10 years, and was taking 40 - 50 norco 10's daily. My dr put me on oxys earlier this year, but I did not like how they made me feel drugged, so I went back to the norcos.

I like subutex better than norco. I like the high better, plus my life has improved. I quit smoking (norcos made me want to smoke, without the norcos I can't stand the habit and am more productive). I no longer plan my life around doctors office visits and counting pills. I'm not spending $1000/month at the pharmacy anymore. (I take no other medication besides the subutex.)

On 4 mg, I feltl wired/drugged/dilated pupils, so I quickly had to get that down. .25 mg/day seemed fine, until day 4, when I started getting withdrawal symptoms. Long half-life of subutex meant it took several days to adjust to that lower dose. I am now on my fourth day of .5 mg/day plus that tiny crumb, and that is where I plan to stay until my doctor says I can wean down. I'm anxious to do that, and have studied the tapering and liquid dosing methods in the forums.

I made a few donations to the doctor, because I had questions to email him, and to support the forums. It was worth it!! He gave me long thoughtful answers. I am thankful for all the other posters, and for the forums.


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PostPosted: Sun May 23, 2010 9:13 am 
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Hello ProjetShin,
I am also somewhat new to the forum, but wanted to say hello as you seem in need of support. I am so sorry that you can't afford to go to a doctor to get the help that you need. I can only tell you what my personal experience is..... My doctor gave me a prescription for a total of 8 mgs a day for 5 days. She told me to take 2 mgs. at first and see if that helped, wait an hour and if my withdrawal symptoms weren't relieved to take 2 mgs more, and wait.... She said that I would be able to find a dose that worked for me this way. I also remember her telling me that if I stayed under 9 mgs that it would be easier for me to get off the subs... Fast forward 9 weeks and I am at a very high dose of 24 mgs and don't think I will be getting off the subs any time soon, nor do I want to so that is okay with me. I do need to discuss with my doctor the fact that I want to reduce, but that is for another thread on the forum..... :)

I am fairly certain that the amount of subs that "one" is supposed to take on a daily basis is extremely individualized. You may want to take a look at the web site "Here-to-Help" as I seem to recall that there was some useful information when i was first starting to think about going on the medicine. Also, I think that there is some really great information on this site in the archives -- though I haven't done much research/searching as I am new to the site..... I know that the doctor on this site is very helpful, but again, I don't know how it really works......

I hope this is somewhat useful. Mostly I wanted to tell you that you are not alone today. I am here... I know others are as well.
Please write back and give us an update...... Best, FAD :)


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PostPosted: Sun May 23, 2010 9:44 am 
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Hi Projekt -
Welcome to the forum. While I'm glad to hear you are at a place where recovery is a priority, I'm a bit dismayed that you want to be your own doctor though. Is that not old addict behavior? I know you said you can't afford it - and I believe that - but I'd like to give you some perspective. Have you considered how much you were spending on your habit and compare that to the price of your recovery? Just something to think about.

Suboxone is a tool in recovery, or as we say "addiction remission". It does not cure our addictions; it merely helps to put us into remission so that we have the opportunity to work on a real, healthy recovery plan. Please understand that any advice you get from us is merely personal opinion. Other than Dr. Junig, I'm not aware of anyone here who is a doctor. So really, I don't think it's appropriate for me to play doctor to you. Again - old addict behavior. So please understand that we are NOT doctors and it would be inappropriate to tell you how to use a drug you got off the street. I simply do not want to place Dr. Junig at any liability risks - I hope you understand that.

As for your plan, please be aware that short term use of suboxone is not usually conducive to long term recovery. It will assist with physical withdrawals and reduce if not remove cravings while one is on it. The real problem isn't GETTING "clean", it's STAYING "clean". Please think about what you plan to do to avoid relapse once you wean yourself off the bupe. That said, the lower the dose you are on the easier it will be to wean off it.

KELLYB - Welcome to the forum, too. I'm glad you too have chosen remission over active addiction. I wanted to respond to something you said though that concerns me. And that is that you seem to be intentionally using suboxone to get high. I do not want new members and lurkers of this forum to think that is what suboxone is for. Because it is not. Generally, if a person is getting high from it they are not taking the correct dosage to saturate the receptors and it will work more like a full agonist. At least that I what I understand from Dr. Junig's latest blog post. If anyone hasn't read it yet, I would very much recommend doing so.

I want both of you to understand I am not trying to be pissy about this. We are truly happy that you have found our little refuge of recovery. I just want to stress that this forum was created to provide honest, responsible, accurate information about suboxone and recovery. Seriously, I wish you both the best in your recovery efforts and nothing would please me more than for you to succeed. I hope you stick around and keep posting. I think you'll be amazed at the support you will receive here. Again, WELCOME!

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PostPosted: Mon May 24, 2010 8:27 am 
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I did anything and everything, including committing felonies to get and use drugs. I lied, cheated, stole, swindled, conned, connived, bamboozled, manipulated, you name it, when I needed drugs, I did it.

Now, I certainly avoid those negative behaviors since getting into recovery/remission....but I try to apply the same level of intensity to my recovery that I applied to my active use of drugs.

This is my life here. If I don't stop, I'm dead. I already have Hepatitis C, and I have symptoms from that, which is not a good thing. My liver is already damaged, much of it from the absurd amounts of acetaminophen I filtered through it when my drug of choice was Vicodin for a few years.....oh, and let's not forget the jugs of vodka that evaporated before my eyes when I was nice and hammered on a couple of dozen oxys. :roll: Just absolute insanity.

It's like suicide on the installment plan. :?

So, yeah, for THIS addict, I need to be working on my recovery just as hard as I worked on getting high, and if that means I have to go without something so that I can do this suboxone therapy the RIGHT way (under a doctor's care) then so be it.

I look at it this way: MY best thinking got me hooked on heroin, locked up in prison for the better part of two decades (where I still sought and used heroin) and then strung out on oxycontin back out here on the streets. My best thinking told me it was no big deal to share needles with other junkies (hello, HepC) and my best thinking got me to the point of NEEDING Opiate Replacement Therapy just to be able to be a functional member of society.

So, why in the world, as a drug addict, would I think my best thinking can be applied successfully to treating my illness?

I think if any addict takes an honest, objective look at themselves, there's probably a little voice inside that's telling you "That Junkie781 guy is probably right, and I should probably be talking to a doctor about this" If you hear that, THAT's the real you. If, on the other hand, you hear "bah, screw him, I'm different, I can handle this" that's probably your disease talking and all it's interested in is killing you. Don't let it. Please.


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PostPosted: Mon May 24, 2010 11:32 am 
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Hi Junkie781 --
You make me realize how lucky I am.... That was an incredible story. Truly amazing. And you are so right -- I did anything I could to get my drugs -- stole, lied, cheated, whatever..... And one can definitely use those same traits or intensity (I like that!) to go in the other direction.

Thank you for helping me to remember how lucky I am today. Peace, FAD


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 Post subject: dose
PostPosted: Tue May 25, 2010 2:12 pm 
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Hatmaker, what do you suggest? Dr. Junig told me the same thing - that my dose is too low. I take 1/4 of a 2mg tablet ONCE per day, in the evening.

I'm afraid to go back to 2 - 4 mg, because it made me feel so wired and cloudy in my thinking.

I'm seeing my doctor tomorrow. Maybe I just need to get off this stuff. But I think this is not the forum for deciding this issue, so I will resolve that with my doctor.

I would be terrified to go to 8mg or 16mg, or some of the doses I am reading about.

I am open to suggestions, but frankly, too afraid to go higher in my dose. It took several days for that drugginess to wear off, so any increase in dose is something I'd have to live with for several days, and it would interfere with my responsibilities.


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PostPosted: Tue May 25, 2010 3:00 pm 
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There is a little "myth" floating around these forums and that's people are incabpable of being able to treat themselves...

while i want to say that this holds true to the majority.. I honestly don't feel that i am incapable of doing what's right for myself regardless of what some members might say...

-----------------------

now that's out of the way... so basically an update is i have started taking my suboxone.. and i am completely shocked at how effective it really is.... i have been taking 4mg once a day... and will continue to do so for the next week or so... and from there i'll taper off.. being on this drug changed my life... and i can't wait till i'm really clean about 3 weeks from now...

i honestly think that it all depends on your "addiction" itself... many people here view taking suboxone as one whole thing.... but in reality the experience will vary between many different users... and thus.. the w/d or addiction to suboxone will vary as well... while i don't have a PhD or a psychology degree on addiction.... I do know what's right for my body... in many cases, much more so then a doctor... and don't get me wrong.. if i had the cash to go see one.. i would... but i simply am not fortunate enough... so consider that yea??

luckily.. i know whats the right thing to do... hopefully many will follow suit.... (keep in mind, that if i had went to the doctor... he probably would've had me start on 16mg or 8mg... sometimes they just don't know)


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 Post subject: Great Post
PostPosted: Tue May 25, 2010 3:37 pm 
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Hey junkie781,
I have to tell you I think that was one of the best post' I have seen out here for quite some time.... :!:
I'm going to borrow that line "It's like suicide on the installment plan. " I love that because in is so TRUE. The addiction itself would like nothing more than to KILL the host body..... That's just the way it works and that's why getting it into Remission is so important!!! Thanks for reminding what this is all about. Sometimes I get complacent and forget how serious this addiction thing really IS. I don't want to hi-Jack this thread so I will get out here... I wish you all the best of luck in your continued Recovery...

God Bless
TW

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PostPosted: Tue May 25, 2010 3:38 pm 
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There is a phrase that I first heard many, many, years ago, and it would seem that it fits here with significant accuracy. It goes like this:

You don't know what you don't know.

What you have written, and what you clearly seem to believe, is straight from the addiction playbook. Believing that we can treat ourselves is part of being an addict. A statement like "i am completely shocked at how effective it [Suboxone] really is" only proves my point even more.

"luckily.. i know whats the right thing to do..."

If that were the case, how did you become addicted to opiates in the first place?

Understanding addiction and treating it is a long, long, long road. You are clearly starting out on the first leg of your journey. At some point, many months or perhaps years from now, you will look back and only then understand what it is I'm trying to say to you. And that is because, "You don't know what you don't know."

I wish you all of the best with your recovery. I honestly and truly really do hope you are successful.


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PostPosted: Tue May 25, 2010 4:14 pm 
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Kelly -

The way I understand it (from Dr. J's blog post), as long as you're below the ceiling limit, the bupe is going to act like a full agonist. In other words, you could feel high from it. You need to get to a dose that's at or above the ceiling. I don't know your drug history and I'm not a doctor so I can't say what dosage that would be.

Just like anyone right after induction, you will "feel" it for the first few days. But after that you will level out and when you take it you won't feel high in a any way. Unless you're really confident that you can go off it and not relapse, then I would advocate finding the right dose and staying on it until you're ready. Discussing it with your doctor is probably the best way to go.

Hang in there and please let us know how you're doing.

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PostPosted: Tue May 25, 2010 8:39 pm 
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DONH -- I just have to add to your thread. I was at the doctor's yesterday standing in line for a drug test. The kind where they actually watch you pee.... Yep they watch. Anyhoo, this guy was standing in front of me just complaining away about how he hates this, hates our doctor for forcing us to do this and I was thinking, thank god for our doctor and thank god for this drug test...... He said that he was never going back to drugs and that he knows best.... I just laughed and said -- I've said that at least 3 times -- all three times in rehab. Now I don't say "never" and I am so happy that I have someone who is watching out for me, someone who holds me accountable. I love peeing in a cup while someone watches.... LOL


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PostPosted: Wed May 26, 2010 10:56 am 
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Fad, yes when I have to pee in the cup it is like an Academy Award for me. I am proud of my negative drug test. I would stand and give an acceptance speech if they wouldn't kick me out! LOL. And junkie hit the nail on the head. Look at what we did to get our DOC. Why should any less effort be put into our recovery?

ProjektSHIN, that "myth" you talk about is experience. Don't let us fool you. A lot of us thought the same way you did at first. I certainly knew better than that counselor that I had to see every week (boy,was he ever annoying). What I had to get through my head was I was not different (ask most people on here now if they are). I did not know best. I was powerless and my thoughts weren't correct. As soon as I had that down my recovery started. It took a few months but that annoying counselor kept talking, thank God! I think it is good you have found this forum. We will keep talking.

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PostPosted: Wed May 26, 2010 12:07 pm 
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hatmaker510 wrote:
Kelly -

The way I understand it (from Dr. J's blog post), as long as you're below the ceiling limit, the bupe is going to act like a full agonist. In other words, you could feel high from it. You need to get to a dose that's at or above the ceiling. I don't know your drug history and I'm not a doctor so I can't say what dosage that would be.



Hatmaker,

How or why does this happen? What is the ceiling dose? I was sick as a dog and in overdose on 8mgs, 2mgs and even 1mg (but that was probably because of the half life of the 8mgs and 2mgs still being in my system). I inducted on .8 and still felt high the first 4 days. The next 4 days I felt pretty normal and now that I tapered to .72, I feel high again. What does a person do that goes from 16mgs a day to 2? Do they feel high once they start to taper? Or is it that once you hit the ceiling dose you never feel high again throughout your taper?

My case is a little different in that I never took more than I was prescribed of the oxy and I was on a pretty low dose when I started the suboxone (22.5mgs). I thought the whole idea of suboxone was to stop a person from feeling high?



Thanks and sorry I hijacked the thread. :)

Samantha


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PostPosted: Wed May 26, 2010 12:17 pm 
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Hi smat -

Check out Dr. Junig's blog post on this very subject. It's where I got my information regarding this. He has the capacity to explain it SO much better than I ever could. If after you read it you still have questions you can post a new thread about it. Good luck!

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-I'm only responsible for what I say, not for what you understand.


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