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PostPosted: Mon Mar 11, 2013 5:32 pm 
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hey guys,

I'm new to this forum and, as you might have guessed, this is my first post. I have been off suboxone for about 2.5 months now. Recently more so than ever, I've been experiencing some serious depression and anxiety. I was on suboxone for over a year (and another year or 2 before that going back and force between pills and subs when I couldn't get any pills). My taper was about 4 months long, and I was so happy to finally be off of suboxone and done with the taper, and I was ready to start feeling better. When I first got on suboxone (and quit all opiates) I also started taking an SSRI. I got to a point where I wanted to be free of meds, and thats when i started tapering both. I got off the SSRI quickly (maybe 6 months ago) and then the suboxone followed (2.5 months ago). I have also been on anti anxiety medication (benzodiazepam) for 6 years or so. I got off them completely once, and only lasted about 3/4 weeks before I got back on (granted, on a much lower dose). I no longer abuse them, or take more than I am supposed to, or drink on them, etc... but I am still taking them daily none the less. This is my next "project": tapering down on the benzos (again). I am an anxious person, and those 3/4 weeks when I was off of them scared the living hell out of me and my doc convinced me that I should get back on it for a while to let everything else (pain killers, subs, SSRI, etc) settle down and let me get back to myself, even if that means getting help with my anxiety. During my taper was also given Flexaril (cyclobenzaprine, a muscle relaxant) which helped a lot with sleep. I still have some, but have not found them too useful lately (although they were tremendously useful my first month off subs).

Anyway, As time went on, I definitely started feeling better, feeling a larger ray of emotions and just feeling like "the fog has lifted". I think this was a combination of getting off both the subs and the SSRI. I feel like ive reached a plateau. Those first 2 months I was feeling withdrawals, but they were getting better day by day and that was enough motivation for me to push through it. For the last few weeks, I feel like I haven't been getting any better... worse, in fact. I've fallen into a deep depression and 0 motivation to move, get out of bed, or be social. I feel proud that as of now the only medication I take is the anti-anxiety and muscle relaxant when needed... no more suboxone, or SSRIs, or opiates. The problem is, I can't focus on getting off benzos while having these feelings. At first I thought they were just PAWS, is it possible that 2.5 months later I'm still feeling the withdrawal effects? Even with the anti anxiety medication, I can barely get out of bed and go to work/school/see friends due to anxiety/depression.

It's a double edged sword. I feel great that I am no longer taking those intense medications (anti anxiety excluded), but at the same time, I find myself "feeling great about it" while lying in bed or sitting on the couch. It feels like I've filled this hole in myself with drugs, and then with subs and SSRIs, and now that I've quit all of that, that emptiness feels more prevalent than ever. I took some major negatives out of my life, and just kind of assumed that they would be replaced with positives. They weren't. I know I need to take a proactive view of this, and start adding positive things to my life instead of just assuming that the absence of negatives means positive. It's been very hard to do this while so depressed/anxious.

Now im debating getting back on an SSRI. But the idea of restricting my emotions and not "being myself" scares me (the reasons I got off of it in the first place). On the other hand, if what I'm feeling and doing now is "myself", then thats not really a life I care to live either (depressed and anxious to the point of not being able to get day to day things done). Its gotten so bad that if I don't have food in my house, ill go hours (sometimes days) without really eating, simply because I don't wanna go out and get food/go food shopping.

I dont know if I should get back on an SSRI and then work on lowering my benzo intake with time. Or if I should just keep at it, and maybe ill feel completely different at month 3/4. Has anyone else experienced such depression AFTER PAWS? All the physical symptoms have subsided in the last 2.5 months, but the mental ones have not. If anything, it scares me more, because now I dont have an addiction or a medication that I can blame and tell myself "itll all be different/better once Im off _____ for good".

Part of me wants to just take a .5 mg suboxone and feel better, but I know this cant be the answer. Although I do know that it will make me feel better and allow me to get things done (work/graduating from school). I am seriously in fear of being fired/not graduating (and im already on my last legs/chances with school) because of this depression.

Sorry for the rant/life story, I would appreciate any and all advice. Thank you very much and I hope you all have a great day!
-AtticsOfMyLife


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 11, 2013 6:14 pm 
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I guess I should clarify, not necessarily an SSRI. But some anti depressant (open to suggestions)

Only said SSRI cause its the only thing I have experience with (Celexa, but this was while I was taking pills and then while i was on suboxone, so its hard to say if the Celexa helped on its own or not... but the side effects weren't too bad)


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 11, 2013 7:01 pm 
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Hello AtticsOfMyLife,

I do not have any experience with antidepressants but I'm sure someone will come along to add some insight.. I can tell you that between 2.5 - 5 months after stopping suboxone, I did suffer from a severe lack of motivation/ energy. It was pretty debilitating at the time. If someone had waived thousands of dollars in my face to go shopping, I would have politely declined.. that's saying something because I love shopping. This lack of energy definitely made me a little depressed (how could it not?) but I never considered myself truly depressed. I just figured that, for me personally, it was a symptom of my body and mind still adjusting. I chose to power through and I am feeling better with each month that passes. At 7 months now, I'm feeling pretty regular. This could be different for you, especially if you feel like you're in a deep depression, so you may want to discuss a plan with your doctor.

Also, I used benzos for the first few weeks.. but stopped pretty abruptly. How many/ how often? What are you taking?


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 11, 2013 7:16 pm 
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Thank you for the response tinydancer, much appreciated. After reading your post I think that its less of a depression and more a lack of motivation, as you described. I think I kind of lumped them together, but in reality im not feeling "depressed" or suicidal, or even a desire to use. I am feeling a debilitating lack of motivation, and that in turn depresses me. Some days that start off right and just keep going with me being productive, I do not feel depressed at all.

About the benzos, I was prescribed them for panic attacks and sleep issues long before I started using other drugs or suboxone. I have been on clonazapam for 6+ years. While I was taking suboxone I managed to taper down to .75 mg a day (.25 x3times a day) which is almost nothing. but since cutting subs and SSRIs out of my system, I am now back to roughly 2 mg a day. I know this isnt good, but i would rather take 2 mg of kpins a day then a lower amount, along with an SSRI and suboxone. The benzo taper is definitely my next plan, and I had hoped to do it sooner/start now, but with this debilitating lack of energy (and the anxiety that comes with it) its hard for me to consider this a good time to start tapering... but i know this is something i have to deal with, and id rather do it sooner than later (just like opiates, then subs/SSRI). But if I cut out the benzos now, i have no doubt in my mind that I will end up fired and not graduating from school. Its unfortunate, but I feel like the benzos just have to wait until I have my life back together after the suboxone. Things are not going well now, and anxiety is part of it. I am barely getting by on my day to day activities with the help of benzos.

Im glad to hear you're feeling better and better and closer to being back to your normal self. Knowing that you experienced something similar for up to 5 months after getting off subs helps, I really wasn't sure if this debilitating lack of energy was something else or just another side effect of subs that just takes longer to smooth over... has anyone else experienced this at the 2/3 month stage?

Again, thanks for any feedback. much appreciated.
AtticsOfMyLife


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 11, 2013 7:32 pm 
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Hey, no judgement here! Don't worry about it, kick one thing at a time.. and who knows, you may just need something for anxiety and/ or depression. I was just curious because I remember that while taking klonopin (and ultimately valium) did help my sleep schedule and wd symptoms a bit, I think they hindered me in the motivation department. They made me feel sleepy, like I had even less energy than I would have had. It was a bit of a trade off for me but they definitely got me through the heavier w/d period. I could tell though, that I felt more weighted down while on them.. but you're probably more used to them? So that may not be the case for you.

Hang in there! You're body is still adjusting and evening out.. it is a process.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 11, 2013 7:52 pm 
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Hey, no judgement here! Don't worry about it, kick one thing at a time.. and who knows, you may just need something for anxiety and/ or depression. I was just curious because I remember that while taking klonopin (and ultimately valium) did help my sleep schedule and wd symptoms a bit, I think they hindered me in the motivation department. They made me feel sleepy, like I had even less energy than I would have had. It was a bit of a trade off for me but they definitely got me through the heavier w/d period. I could tell though, that I felt more weighted down while on them.. but you're probably more used to them? So that may not be the case for you.

Hang in there! You're body is still adjusting and evening out.. it is a process.
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I agree that it is a process, and I know what you mean about them weighing you down. Thats why I've been feeling so anxious and just not wanted to get up/leave my place/deal with people. Part of it is anxiety, most of it is lack of motivation. At first I thought if I take more benzos then I'll get over this feeling and be more productive. Instead I just felt more content while doing nothing, which is not at all what I wanted. So im cutting back on those, or at least not taking more than I should.

I think I'm gonna tough it out and hope that this doesn't completely ruin my career/education. Taking a little bit of subs today will not help, and getting back on it just to be productive seems counter productive. I already got 2.5 months clean off subs, why ruin that... at the same time, being "clean" off subs but not replacing that with anything positive in my life and just kinda wasting away is pretty depressing. The only other option is getting back on an SSRI or other anti depressant... this is the last thing I want to do, only as a last resort.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 11, 2013 8:03 pm 
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You've come so far, take a minute to appreciate that! And don't write anything off but just take it one day at a time, really, you're right at the point where it should start getting better, even if gradually...

Hey, do you listen to music? TV didn't help me at all during this time but music was like therapy and was most definitely motivating.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 11, 2013 8:15 pm 
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Absolutely! music is probably the 1 thing i truly love in this world (besides my family, etc)

I used to go see live music several times a week. now im lucky if i even get outa the house several times a week


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 11, 2013 8:18 pm 
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I think TV is actually making it worse. I spent the first lil while watching a lot of it, and a lot of movies, just to get my mind off the physical symptoms. this has kinda kept going, even as the physical symptoms subsided. for example, now I cant fall asleep without having TV or a movie goin on the background. I really dont like this new habit. It also only helps my lack of motivation, only helps me to stay inside/in bed and get my mind off why im not doing what I should be doing (work and school). Gotta start changing these habits.

What kind of music do you like? What helped you the most during that time?

Thanks again!


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 11, 2013 8:26 pm 
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Yeah, TV didn't help me much at all but it was more about it not holding my interest, back then. I would get antsy and restless... without being really stimulated. Which is crazy because I absolutely love TV. LOL. I quickly turned to music which surprisingly really helped me motivate to do things. I mean, we all love music, right? But it actually got my butt up and moving during times that I didn't think I could do anything. I have like 6 ipods, a phone, computer.. LOL. I would play music in the bathroom when I had to take a shower.. I would play music on my ipod to get out of the house and walk a bit, I play music on my ipod to go to sleep (still do this one), I obviously play music in the car and I also play music at work. It gets the brain going a bit and truly helps with energy, I promise!

Can you try to use it at home when you're feeling "blah" and see if it helps kick your butt into to gear? Just going through the motions at first, to get out of the house, will help. You'll eventually start to want to do it. Staying in and watching TV is no good right now. =)


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 11, 2013 11:02 pm 
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Tinydancer, I really want to thank you for your responses today. I was really close to losing it and just deciding "fuck it" and getting back on subs. I knew if I took a little today, and saw how productve it made me, i would have to get back on it until i finsh school and for my job. and I knew theres always something else around the corner, so that would be a never ending cycle. talking on here and reading your responses gave me perspective, and im just gonna power through it, already got 2.5 months, how bad can it be from here, right?
I do have to make an effort to add positives into my life, hobbies, social life, etc to fill my time, and it wont be easy, but im gonna try.I gotta realize that taking away these addictions/medications is not gonna make me happy, its only going to give me the opportunity to make myself happy. If Im only getting off meds and not taking advantage of htat opportunity, then im not really accomplishing anything (well, not enough for the long term anyway... getting off the drugs was hard and im happy that ive done what ive done).
And I decided to remove the TV from my bedroom and not get into bed unless im actually going to sleep (no more hanging out in bed for hours on end). Whenever i normally would have watched TV before bed, or in the morning, or whatever, I'm gonna just play music instead.
Thanks again, it really did help. Have a great week :)


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 12, 2013 10:18 pm 
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Attic said, "I do have to make an effort to add positives into my life, hobbies, social life, etc to fill my time, and it wont be easy, but im gonna try.I gotta realize that taking away these addictions/medications is not gonna make me happy, its only going to give me the opportunity to make myself happy. If Im only getting off meds and not taking advantage of htat opportunity, then im not really accomplishing anything (well, not enough for the long term anyway... getting off the drugs was hard and im happy that ive done what ive done). "

WELL SAID!!!

In a nutshell, drugs weren't our problem.....we are!!! Getting drugs out of your life is a HUGE step, but now there's that gaping hole in your life and you have to learn to fill it with something positive......and that's not always easy, but it's necessary.

BTW, when I got off Suboxone, the general malaise (AKA--PAWS) sucked. It's like dragging a boat anchor around everywhere you go. My "depression" got to the point where I got on Wellbutrin for a month or two, quit taking it for a few months, got back on it for a few weeks, quit it again and got on it one last time for about two weeks. This was about 1.5 to 2 years ago. Instead of taking an antidepressant, I work out most everyday now.....best damn thing I've ever done for myself!! Strenuous exercise is like natures antidepressant, for me.

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Be kind to yourself. Our character defects do NOT define who we are!


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 12, 2013 11:14 pm 
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Many people go through this, trust me you aint the only one if its any consultation.. For some it can last up to a year or 2 years depending the dose you jumped from and length of time of suboxone treatment. 2 months is still relatively early, it can take 14 months for brain to produce its own normal endorphins, but many people cannot simply hold out for that long. I know it can be suicidle, so your best bet is to go to the doctors. Nobody deserves to live life in sub post depression, its cruel and very bad, even with a great taper it just doesnt let up, me thinks taper may make it worse, the low doses are strong, very strong. Trust me you aint the only one, many people have tried all sorts of ADs but they do not seem to really help post sub depression, I think its the lack of endorphins and not dopamine, which ADs focus on.

I feel bad for you because I can tell by your posts your suffering badly, this is no life to life. Now I understand why so many people go on about PAWS and how nearly all users cripple under it. Give it a year or 18 months and see how you feel, thats how long it can take to feel close to normal..

One thing is which is worrying is that it seems not even a benzo is helping, usually adding benzos helps the motivation and depression, man sub PAWS must suck big time, just imagine if you werent taking benzos? it would have been much worse, it definitely has to be the suboxone side affects..See if your depression will let up after 1 year, if you can handle the crippling depression 1 year out, many people report feeling close to normal after 1 year, 2 months is just start for the mental symptoms to appear because of the sub half life...0.75 is still potent, it can take 3 months to taper from 0.75 so I can only imagine the half life of that is still stuck in your receptors.

I sympathize with you I really do, I know how people have lost jobs, marriages, even their self pride due to sub PAWS, so its not uncommon to feel this way..


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2013 1:32 pm 
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Icaras wrote:

One thing is which is worrying is that it seems not even a benzo is helping, usually adding benzos helps the motivation and depression, man sub PAWS must suck big time, just imagine if you werent taking benzos?


I'm not so sure about that. It's possible the benzos could help with depression.. but motivation and energy? They relax you, which helps for anxiety and sleeping, but simultaneously adds to a lack of energy/ lethargic feeling, IMO. I'm sure everyone responds a little differently.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2013 3:40 pm 
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it takes longer than 2.5 months to get back to normal. By 3-6 months you should start feeling more back to how you were before you were on sub.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 14, 2013 1:17 pm 
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Umm... how are you, Attics?

Just checking in... I was listening to a song this morning and one of the lyrics says

"Don't you surrender, sometimes salvation is in the eye of the storm"

Reminded me of your thread because you're kind of right in the thick of it, the mental part anyway. Hope you're feeling better!


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 21, 2013 11:30 am 
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tinydancer wrote:
Umm... how are you, Attics?

Just checking in... I was listening to a song this morning and one of the lyrics says

"Don't you surrender, sometimes salvation is in the eye of the storm"

Reminded me of your thread because you're kind of right in the thick of it, the mental part anyway. Hope you're feeling better!
I like that, what song is it? I'd like to say things are better, but they really arent. im glad to hear that im not the only one feeling like this at the 2/3 month point. I will give it more time, but i might get on an SSRI in the mean time, i havent decided yet. going to see my doc later tonight. its been pretty brutal, especially the last week. i just havent been able to put my mind to being productive like I used to... even for the first month or 2, i feel like just the notion that i was finally off subs was motivating me to go out and do stuff I havent done in a while (school, work, friends, etc) and once that effect wore off, well, you know the rest. I've had a few days where I was seriously considering just getting back on subs to finish this last little stretch at work/school, but I know that isn't the answer and will only delay the inevitable and probably make it much worse. Pretty lucky that I don't really know where to get drugs (or my drug of choice, rather) anymore, or else I probably would have slipped, but I know that obviously isn't the answer either.
I have been listening to a lot of music though, and I am at a point right now where I kinda took a little vacation and indulged my depression. Not really a vacation, I was just lucky enough to have someone cover my ass the last week or so. Starting today/tomorrow, if I don't get my shit together, its going to have some serious implications on my life long-term, and I cannot let that happen (losing my job and not graduating, everything I've been working for). I really appreciate the support, I think I can do this. I'll be cutting back on benzos, not really sure about the SSRI yet but I will see what happens with my doc tonight. I'm cutting pot outa my life as well, it helped a lot at first for sleep and eating (still does), and I did feel more motivation when i started only smoking a tiny bit before bed. gonna cut it out completely just to see what happens, but im sure itll only help in the motivational department.

Ive been listening to this song a lot, it just fits so perfectly into what's going on in my head, and how I gotta think about it and act on it. It's called Change (cheesy I know): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VdXXgppVU4c
I don't feel the suns comin' out today
its staying in, its gonna find another way.
As I sit here in this misery, I don't
think I'll ever see the sun from here.

And oh as I fade away,
they'll all look at me and say, and they'll say,
Hey look at him! I'll never live that way.
But that's okay
they're just afraid to change.

When you feel your life ain't worth living
you've got to stand up and
take a look around you then a look way up to the sky.
And when your deepest thoughts are broken,
keep on dreaming boy, cause when you stop dreamin' it's time to die.

And as we all play parts of tomorrow,
some ways we'll work and other ways we'll play.
But I know we all can't stay here forever,
so I want to write my words on the face of today.
and then they'll paint it

And oh as I fade away,
they'll all look at me and they'll say,
Hey look at him and where he is these days.
When life is hard, you have to change.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 21, 2013 2:49 pm 
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anyone have any experience/advice for these coming months? I was on an SSRI, and tapered and got off it completely just a month or 2 before my last sub dose (now almost 3 months ago). So my experience was coming off both of them in a relatively close time period, and i loved the feeling of "the fog lifting".

since they were so close together time wise, i dunno how much of that is attributed to getting off subs, and how much to getting off the SSRI. but i do not want to go back into that fog. Not sure if I should just try and power through this, or if an SSRI can really help me get through the next couple of months. anyone have experience getting on an SSRI after stopping subs?

thanks!


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 21, 2013 4:08 pm 
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Hi, when I completely got off Subs, I then got on Lexapro. Lexapro also helps for Anxiety so it helped General Anxiety and depression. It helped me for about a year after I got off Subs. I think if the SSRI has helped you in the past, I would try to get back on it. Anxiety or lack of motivation (for long periods of time) are symptoms of depression. It will probably help motivate you during the day.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 21, 2013 7:35 pm 
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raudy1975 wrote:
Hi, when I completely got off Subs, I then got on Lexapro. Lexapro also helps for Anxiety so it helped General Anxiety and depression. It helped me for about a year after I got off Subs. I think if the SSRI has helped you in the past, I would try to get back on it. Anxiety or lack of motivation (for long periods of time) are symptoms of depression. It will probably help motivate you during the day.
thanks for the response. yea, it has helped me (i think). its all kind of muddled, because I was taking it while i was taking suboxone, and got off both at around the same time. and since suboxone is so strong, its not far fetched to think that the SSRI didnt help much, but all the improvements i was seeing was from being on suboxone and off opiates.

When you were off subs (the first 6 months, lets say... when you really start feeling better) did you feel like you were still in some fog because of the Lexapro? When you got off Lexapro a year later, did you feel any side effects like lack of motivation etc? Im just afraid that if my brain just needs time to re adjust, that by getting on an SSRI now it will only postpone the inevitable, and I will be feeling this lack of motivation later on when I get off the SSRI... if that makes sense
Even while on Lexapro but getting the subs out of your system, were you feeling better and better? or did you not really feel like "yourself" until AFTER you got off Lexapro as opposed to after you got off subs?


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