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PostPosted: Thu Sep 15, 2011 12:50 pm 
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I have spent many days just reading these forums. Mostly for learning and curiosity. I am an addict with chronic pain and became addicted to norco's. I am a professional that works for the government and have to be at work which has made this process very difficult for me. After a few failed attempts of stopping myself, hurting my family I chose to try suboxone. My induction was on September 6th. 8mg in the am and 8mg at lunch. The first few days were great just getting out of withdrawl. I am now experiencing many side effects. Red eyes, swelling in feet and legs, night twitching, sweating, thirsty, yellow urine. Now with that said, although I have them, none of them are so bad that I can't stand them. The red eye is the worst and my doctor doesnt seem to think its from the saboxone. I think hes wrong. I am going to start spitting out my saliva after dosing starting today. I have read that some people are hypersensitive to naloxone and can have all these side effects from it. Does anyone here know that to be true? Would lowering my dose cause me to have more pain but less side effects? My doctor has told me to play with my dosing to see what works for me. Any suggestions?

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 15, 2011 3:23 pm 
Kpurdy, Im sorry you're having a difficult time. For me getting on Subutex was completely wonderful in that I didn't experience any negative side effects at all. I think it really does show how wonderful Suboxone is though, that you are willing to deal with such terrible side effects to escape the grip and rollercoaster of Norco. Obviously anyone can be hypersensitive to any chemical. A couple of the side effects you have listed are pretty common such as sweating and dehydration (or thirst.) I think many people on Suboxone could vouge for these two effects! Urinary discoloration is listed as an uncommon side effect of Suboxone but I would mention it to your Doctor obviously because it sometimes can be an indicator of jaundice. Red Eyes is a somewhat unusual effect but I suppose it could go hand-in-hand with both dehydration and perhaps not getting great sleep (are these night twitches disrupting sleep at all?) I have also seen eye discoloration listed as an uncommon side effect of the combination drug Suboxone. Some people on this board have experienced the 'night twitches' you referred to and though I have never personally experienced them they do not seem to be uncommon; In fact, I'm sure you'll run across this topic more than once as you wade through old messages on this board... Swelling of feet and legs could be related to fluid retention and could also be indicative of liver or kidney problems so I'd mention this one to your doctor as well. You are right that many people do spit saliva after their Suboxone has absorbed to avoid getting small, small, small, small amounts of Naloxone into their system. I'd give that a try and see if any of the side-effects subside. If so, perhaps you could switch to a preperation of Buprenorphine that contains no Naloxone such as Subutex (which is also the cheaper generic Buprenorphine HCL) to avoid the Naloxone hassle. I take Subutex for chronic pain as well as an opioid addiction that started because of pain. I take 12mg daily but can take up to 16mg if I need that extra 4mg for pain. It is pretty widely accepted that when using any formulation of Buprenorphine for pain it is best to dose multiple times daily. It soulds like your Doctor is open to you 'playing around' with your dose to an extent until you find what works best for you which is great. If it were me, I would try maybe 4mg AM, 4mg Noon and then 4mg Evening. Just a thought as you were wondering if lowering your dose would possibly eliminate some side effects which it might. With Suboxone it takes awhile to really understand that 'less is more.' I don't think that by reducing your dosage you will eliminate much if any of the analgesic properties of Buprenorphine as Suboxone has a ceiling effect to its analgesic properties which is reported to be around 4mg on this board. So, essentially 4mg of Suboxone=about 60mg of Oxycodone, 8mg Suboxone=60mg Oxycodone, 16mg Suboxone=60mg Oxycodone, etc, etc. Welcome to the board, it's the best resource for replacement therapy I have found to date!


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 15, 2011 3:27 pm 
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Hi Kpurdy and welcome to the forum. I've never heard of suboxone or naloxone causing any eye problems. As for the rest, it just sounds like you're retaining fluids. I'd ask the doctor about that - how much water are you drinking? Now the sweating is a side effect and any of those should go down with a lower dose. Since you're so new to sub you'll need to find a dose that works for you with regard to w/d, cravings, and side effects.

How is it in helping your pain? I also take sub for pain and I dose with 8 mg, usually twice daily, but sometimes more on a really bad day. It doesn't completely eradicate my pain, but since I have no other real options, it's what I've got along with a muscle relaxer. And it definitely helps make my life more manageable than if I had to get by without it.

Again, welcome. See you around!

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 15, 2011 3:36 pm 
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I think I am also retaining fluid as my fingers are swollen and my joints are super sore.Mainly in my hands.As far as the red eye...mine look like how they did after waking up the next morning after taking a butt load of pills.Not completely red but bloodshot,pinkish.Just not clear.I look like Im stoned or something.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 15, 2011 5:52 pm 
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Thanks for the replies. It does work for the pain. I still will get my injections 3 times a year and I am due for one soon and they really help for a few months. I am taking a few tylenol during the day and a few tylenol pms at night to sleep and for pain. I take a mild muscle relaxer sometimes in the evening depending on how I feel. Since I swole up yesterday for the first time I think I drank at least 8 bottles of water today. I did have a full blood work up done a month before I started the subs and all was fine so unless something went wrong since then I would have to believe that my liver and kidneys are ok. Today for my 2nd dose I only took 4 mg and spit it out. I don't know that I noticed a big difference so that tells me I may be taking to much at 16 mg a day. I think i may do like someone sugested and try the 4 3 times a day. I don't know if my doctor is ok with the subutex. I know that when I first called for my very first appointment the nurse had said. Just so you know the doctor only prescribes the film. I was like ok? I don't know enough about it. I do know that he seems to be an understanding guy. He is a recovering alcoholic and shared that he has been sober for 7 years. He attends AA meetings and has suggested that I try meetings. I chose to go online and be a little more private for now. he loved this and asked if he could reccomend it to his other patients. I gave him the website and told him sure I don't see why not. Anyways, If I can just get these side effects to go away and straighten out the dosage. The first 3 days were great!! I felt so good!

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 15, 2011 7:32 pm 
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I don't think that by reducing your dosage you will eliminate much if any of the analgesic properties of Buprenorphine as Suboxone has a ceiling effect to its analgesic properties which is reported to be around 4mg on this board. So, essentially 4mg of Suboxone=about 60mg of Oxycodone, 8mg Suboxone=60mg Oxycodone, 16mg Suboxone=60mg Oxycodone, etc, etc.


I've actually found that when I've reduced my dose I've lost some pain relieving properties. At least that's been my experience. 4 mg is the where the ceiling is, but just like people need individual doses for cravings, it would seem people require individual doses for pain relief, too. I can't explain it. It's been my experience and my observation.

Oh, one more thing. You can't do a linear conversion with suboxone and full agonists, because of the ceiling effect. Once you're above the 4 mg, it's NOT equivalent to higher and higher doses of full agonists, due to the fact that sub is a partial agonist.

Hope that makes sense.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 16, 2011 9:16 am 
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Hey Kpurdy,

Welcome to the forum!!

It sounds to me like lowering your dose is gonna be your best bet. You had a full blood work up before you got on Suboxone, everything looked good. You didn't have any of these symptoms prior to taking Suboxone, so it sounds like these symptoms would be directly related to you taking Suboxone.

You've been on Suboxone 10 days today, you should be pretty close to being stabilized on Suboxone and you certainly should have enough built up in your system to start trying to lower your dose safely. As with any medication, you should be on as low a dose as possible that still adresses your needs. You "may" be taking way more than you need?

Seeing as you're taking Suboxone for pain too, splitting your dose up into multiple doses during the day might help. It's certainly worth a shot.

If you do decide to lower your dose you have to remember that Suboxone has a long half life so those symptoms may persist for several days after. If I were you, I'd lower my dose on a weekly basis and see if this helps ease your symptoms.

Good luck and I hope you decide to keep us abreast of how you're doing.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 16, 2011 4:32 pm 
Travis originally said>>>>>[/quote]So, essentially 4mg of Suboxone=about 60mg of Oxycodone, 8mg Suboxone=60mg Oxycodone, 16mg Suboxone=60mg Oxycodone, etc, etc.[/quote]<<<<<

Hat, You don't agree twith my belief that that Buprenorphines analgesic properties (at any dose above about 4mg) can be compared to aproximately 60mg of Oxycodone? I do agree that to a small extent I can get a little more of an analgesic effect when I dose 16mg instead of my usual 12mg but to be honest the effect is so minute that it may very well be placebo.

-Travis


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 17, 2011 8:55 pm 
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I have had a lot of swelling in my feet and calfs. I lowed my dose to 12 mg the last two days and today I took 8 (4 am and 4 in afternoo) I think I am feeling a bit better. Still have a few side effects, I figure ina few days I will go back to the doctor if they are not better. My next appointment isnt until the 28th and I cant make it through much more working with my feet so swollen and hurting. I also was very sleepy at work this last week but I was not getting good rest either so I am catching up on rest this weekend as well. Thanks to all of youo! As of now I have not joined a NA or AA group like my doctor has suggested. This is the start of my sharing for now. :) I will keep you all posted on my progress! Kpurdy68

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 22, 2011 1:25 pm 
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Ok it's day 17 and I am feeling way better than I was last week. I have lowered my doses to 4mg in am and 4mg at lunch & no longer swallow, I spit. Swelling is gone, sleeping much better & nausea is gone. Still sweat a little, eyes are hardly red now ( a little pink, especially the right one) but still much better. As for pain, it's not gone but tolerable. I have thought about trying another dose maybe of 2mg later but I am just getting past the ugly side effects from the last few weeks so I take a tylenol or a naproxen when needed. I think I will stay here for a while, I have my next appointment on the 28th and I will see what the ole doc has to say. I think I am having a reaction to the naloxine but with lowering the dose it has made them tolerable. Find out more after my appointment. Thank you for the responses and encouragment.

For the record, As an addict ( i hate saying that) still trying to make that stick in my head. I surely kept thinking, my god! I can't walk, i feel sick and this sucks. I know that if I did not have this medicine I would of already popped a few hundred more pills. I am so glad I have spent so much time reading all the posts and googling side effects and finding people that have encouraging words. Thank you very much to my private message friend! I know we have not talked much but you don't realize how encouraging it is to log on and see someone really cares enough to take a moment to check on you. I have a lot of issues with coming to the realization that I needed help, need help and will always be an (addict) ugh. I look in the mirror and see this person who has worked so hard on a career, great kids, wonderful and supportive family, have what most people would do anything for and I chose to destroy all of it. hmm now im dumping. im out! have a great day and good luck to everyone. I will be around, this is my 12 step program for now.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 22, 2011 2:59 pm 
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I am glad things are evening out....you can do this, one day at a time. Give yourself credit, you are DEtoxing! This is hard work on the mind and body, so cut yourself a break.

Can you keep you feet elevated when sitting?
I am glad the 4 mg twice a day has you feeling better. When you see your doc, make sure he understands that and that you may be better off on Subutex. I wish you Good Luck, keep us posted, you are going to make it for sure, no rush!
R


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