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 Post subject: 22 Days and Counting
PostPosted: Wed Mar 02, 2011 10:50 am 
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So I've posted in different areas in here over the past 3 months and I've been blown away by the support that fellow board posters have offered everyone that comes in here looking for help. I've been humbled by some of the things I have read and feel fortunate that others are out there in the world that still give a shit about their fellow human beings. I'd have to say that this is a pretty tight community. The "sub" community that is. :)

My plan is to jump on March 24th. That's my son's 13th birthday and it just seems like it's time. For about 3 years I've been using sub as a way to keep from going back to my daily 250-300MG Norco habit. :twisted: I'm currently down to 1MG per day and weekly I am cutting down .25MG so I can be at .25, maybe even less at the jump. When I jump I am flushing all remaining subs so that I have no craving to pull myself out that I can fix by that magic orange pill. Or film in my case. I know myself and I am a damn sissy when it comes to WD. I don't know how it will measure up to the 4 days of cold turkey I did before sub but man, I feel like I am waiting for a ride that goes up 400 feet in the air and I freaken hate heights. Like most control freaks do. :D

I'm hoping to hear from others about what worked for them, what did not work for them. From supplements to vitamins to natural remedies......whatever. Thanks in advance.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 02, 2011 12:48 pm 
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Well, I hate to share priviledged information like this with a Raider's fan, but I'll make an exception in your case!! hahaha, you are a Raiders fan, right? Remember me, I'm the Titans fan.

Anyhow, my best advice for you right now is to go to your doctor and ask him for some Clonidine. Hands down, Clonidine did more for me than ANY other med. Before I quit, I also went to the doctor and got a full physical to make sure I was physically ready for the wd.

You mention how you're lining your quit date up with your son's birthday because "it just seems like it's time." I can't tell you how important that "knowing it was my time" was to my success. I somehow just knew it was my time to quit. I think you are going to have great success because you're quitting "when it's your time."

I don't know if you're aware, but I was on sub three years too. I completely buggered up my taper, but YOU have done a GREAT job with your taper. I really look forward to keeping up with your story.


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 Post subject: Excited for you!!
PostPosted: Wed Mar 02, 2011 1:47 pm 
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I am SO excited for you!! You absolutely can do this. I think the fact that you've been at a reasonably low dose for a long time is going to be a huge thing in your favor. I mean, I'm down to under 2 mg, but I spent a long time at very high doses. I WISH I'd been at 2 all this time!!!

Romeo is right on with what he says about the Clonidine. I'm hoping I can get some too when I'm ready to jump. I consistently hear people say that it makes a world of difference to have that stuff to take the edge off. Also, I think you need to be ready for one thing that I don't think everyone expects. You are going to go through physical w/d, of course. There's another side to the w/d which is entirely emotional. I haven't been through full agonist w/d, so I just have to go by what other people have told me, which is that Sub w/d can send you on a pretty intense emotional roller coaster ride. The bottom line is that while you are in w/d, don't make any big decisions/changes/etc. If you can, remind yourself that the sadness or whatever you are feeling is NOT real...it's the w/d messing with your head. A lot of people cry their eyes out. That's okay!! DON'T WATCH BAMBI!!!! Even big, bad men cry like little girls. Who cares? It will all settle down. I'd warn your family that you might be a little mental for a while, as well as physically sick, but that you will return to regularly scheduled programming ASAP.

I'm really eager to hear how it goes!! I'm planning on jumping midsummer.

laddertipper

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 Post subject: Congrats
PostPosted: Wed Mar 02, 2011 4:15 pm 
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Hey man congrats on your decision to finally quit. I think you've done a great job tapering under 1 mg. I wish I had done that! I decided to stop at around 2 mg. I decided to quit about 10 days ago and even though its tough, I know that its best for long term. When you quit you have to remember to be strong and realize that many of the feelings you are having are temporary. Suboxone withdrawal is a roller coaster, but it does end.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 02, 2011 4:38 pm 
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Thanks for the replies guys n gals. I appreciate and I will definelty keep you updated on my journey step by step. I'm hoping it can help other folks from our "sub" family.

@ Romeo - Yeah man of course I remember you. I think you said something about being a Raider fan at one point? Then sold out and switched over? Ha! I kid. You know what, clondodine just knocked me out the last time I took it. My question is what's the difference between clonodine and xanax? I was taking xanax and I don't know if you remember or not but I developed central sleep apnea so decided to get off it. That and I read something Dr. J wrote about coupling xanax with sub can be fatal. I have no idea how I did not OD because there were times when I was on 8MG of sub and taking a 2MG stick of xanax WHILE DRINKING. :? I know. I know. What an idiot. We have all, well at least I have, done some extremely stupid shit during our journey. So what do you think? Xanax over clonodine? I also am going to need something for the mental side of things. More on that below. GO RAIDERS!

@ laddertripper - That is hillarious. "DON'T WATCH BAMBI". LMAO! I can't even watch american idol with my kids right now. I swear on everything I love, the least bit of emotional anything in a movie or show and I lose it. That is weird for me. I am definently an emotional guy but you'd never guess. Bald head, tats all over, goatee, 6'3" 225lbs.......I look like the guy in American History X. But I cry more than my 4 year old daughter. LOL! So I guess this is gonna get really bad on my end. I am guessing it's the reduced dose. .75 today from 1MG the previous 2 weeks. I'm hoping my doc can give me something for depression. Just for the transition though when I jump. I want to FEEL......like so bad. I am numb and when not numb I am depressed. Sux! I hope I did not do any long term damage to my system and that at some point it starts pumping out dopamine. I guess we shall say.

@ PDX - Thanks man. I'm routing for you as well. Following your posts and will be there for support if you need it. Dude 10 days without sub is huge. Just think, 10 more and you'll be so much better. Every day is different from what I hear but like Romeo said, the consensus seems to be that around the 1 month mark you start feeling a little normal. As in pre opiate, pre sub.....pre insanity. Keep up the good work man and stay in touch.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 02, 2011 6:15 pm 
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I have alot of info for you. This is from a place the does cold laser acupuncture and vitamin B12 injections weekly for withdrawal. I started the weaning process with them and it helps. I weaned from 8mgs. To 2mgs so far and no symptoms so far. Here is there diet ideas for preparing for withdrawal. 1) no Red Bull or any other drinks containing caffeine or sugar. These drinks anxiety much worse. 2) one cup coffee ONLY per day. This is a serious suggestion. 3) Herbal teasa can help with relaxation and digestion: chamomile, green teas, teas with milk thistle will help detoxify liver. 4) refined food products are bad for addicts metabolism. No white bread, no white sugar, or things made with them. 5) load up on high fiber. Fruits and vegetables in particular. 6) stone fruits are best for withdrawal as the sugar in them satisfies but it takes longer to work through your system. Stone fruits are those with pits: cherrys, peaches, plums, nectarines, etc.7) if you are having sugar fit try dried plums, raisins or dates. These have lots of fiber and are very sweet. 8) a small amount of dark chocolate will not hurt. It has chemicals to make you feel better :). 9) buy some sliced turkey at the deli and roll it up onto little rolls. These are a good high protien snack with little fat. The tryptophan in these will help you feel calmer and sleep better. 10) tryptophan is also found on cheese, chicken,eggs,fish,milk,nuts,peanut butter,peanuts, pumpkin seeds, sesame seeds, soy, tofu and turkey of coarse. 11) keep hydrated with lots of water( not soda pop). You need to flush toxic waste from your body. 12) GET MOVING. Some sort of daily exercise is critical. This will also help move the toxins out of your body from sweat. If some of these are difficult for you to do, don't stress over it, but do try as hard as you can as these things will make your next steps easier. They told me to treat this as if your are training for an athletic event. Here are some more tips.
- try eating a small amount of food before bed, not sugary or junk food.
PAIN:
-if any inflammatio try Zyflamend,new chapter, in health food store.
-take 2 to4 of EmergenC, alegre brand at once
-gentle streching, exercise or yoga, chiropractic(activato
r method)
- cherry extract, Heath food stores.
-walk for 5 to 10 min. every couple hours.
**Suggested Drug Withdrawl Vitamins For most Withdrawls: Take vitamins 4 times per day with food or yogurt. You may take vitamins fewer times per day as person improves and no longer craves. If no problems at all, reduce to 2 times/day. People detoxing are under extreme stress and needs lots of nutritional support and rest to comfortably move through this time. Liquids, nutrients and rest is best prescription. Below formulae is sometimes called the " drug bomb"; if using whole food vitamins try using 1/2 the amounts below, but increase if not getting desired effect.
Take 4 times per day with food.
-niacinamide( buffered Niacin is okay NOT 'niacin'
- Vit. A. 5,000iu
-Vit. D. 400iu
-Vit. E. Mixed tocopherol 800iu
-Vit C as calcium ascorbate. 2,000 mg.
-Vit B-6. 300mg
-Vit B complex( stress tabs). 200mg ( additionally)
-Vit B-1. 300mg
-Vit B-5. 100mg
* magnesium citrate. 500 mg, or 250 magnesium tablets
Look for multi-vitamin with this formula with this formula. Also take;
Milk thistle- one cap 3 times/day to help detox liver.
Co-enzyme Q10, 30mg 4 times/day- helps rebuild heart and lungs.
Fish oil gel cap. 3 times/day
** Peter Gilliams or Natural Vitality have brands that follow this exact formula.

If you are having trouble eating find a good high quality protien powder(avoid sugary blends) and drink your meals. Protien intake is vital for detox to be effective.

For trouble sleeping try "Calms Forte" . For restless legs there is something called "restless legs" you can take but it didn't seem to help me personally.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 02, 2011 6:21 pm 
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I copied that from the info provided to me, I hope this will help. I have talked to people who have done it, and it worked for them with minimal withdrawals. But they also got cold laser acupuncture along with B12 injections. Good luck!!


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 03, 2011 10:31 am 
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nunyabizz064 wrote:
I copied that from the info provided to me, I hope this will help. I have talked to people who have done it, and it worked for them with minimal withdrawals. But they also got cold laser acupuncture along with B12 injections. Good luck!!


Copied or not that's all really helpful information. Thanks! :D


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 03, 2011 11:12 am 
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Your welcome, I hope it helps because I had to enter all that from my IPhone, don't have computer! It took a long time and emptied my battery!! Lol.I would recommend finding a place with laser therapy, it really helped me. Good luck, keep us posted.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 03, 2011 3:09 pm 
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nunyabizz064, yes, thank you TONS for all that information. You broke it all down very well. I can see that I need to change...just about everything, lol. However, if it will truly help with this, then I am game. I have a feeling I'm going to be spending a few hundred dollars at Trader Joe's today for vitamins. I just hope I can stomach them. I normally take adult chewable multivitamins, cause the nasty burps you get after taking a lot of tablets is just too much. I guess I'll have to take these things with plenty of food. This taper is really messing with my system. Even when I don't have stomach issues, it seems like every time I eat certain things, I GET them. Specifically, Taco Bell is what kills me. I don't eat any other fast food except Taco Bell and I LOVE it...until halfway through the night when I'm in a fetal position with stomach cramps and then I hate it.

jleets, it sounds like we are going through a lot of the same exact stuff in our heads right now. I am sooooo sick and tired of being on Sub, tapering off Sub, feeling crappy, not having normal energy, etc. I want it to be over SO bad!!! And I'm just not ready to jump either, so I feel quite stuck. My elbows are friggin' killing me, which is what happens whenever I'm not adjusted on a dose. I know I can exercise and make it better, but I am so exhausted a lot of the time and really paralyzed by the cold winter. I love when I level out and feel okay, but then I taper down again (cause I truly do want it to be over) and I go back to feeling like doggie poop again. This is a long haul, but I still want to do it and I'll never give up. I'm open to an antidepressant. I'm not 'there' yet, but I have gotten there from Sub w/d before and I really should have taken an antidepressant, at least for a little while.

We will prevail, right?!

laddertipper

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 04, 2011 2:54 am 
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Hey Raiders fan (you poor guy, hahaha), you asked about the difference between Xanax and Clonidine. You know Xanax can be highly addictive, right? Clonidine carries no such risk. You say Clonidine knocked you out the last time you took it. Do you remember what dose you were on? I was prescribed .1mg twice daily.

Clonidine is actually a blood pressure medication, it's prescribed "off label" for opiate wd. I'm not sure if anyone really knows why it works for opiate wd, but it does. In my opinion, it helped to calm my nervous system down, if that makes any sense? Clonidine was far and away the best med I took during my wd.

As far as being emotional and crying like a little baby, I am not ashamed to admit it happened to me quite often. OK, maybe I'm a little ashamed to admit it. haha lol. LadderTipper offers some sage advice as far as Bambi goes, I still haven't watched that stupid movie!! I don't know if a hunter blows her head off or if she gets hit by a Mack truck, but I know something bad happens and I don't want any part of it!

Oh Yeah, today is my 9 month anniversary off sub!! YAY!! I'll tell you this guys and gals, it takes work to stay 'clean'. It can certainly be done, but be ready to work your ass off to maintain your sobriety. Make sure you have a great support system in place, it is an absolute must!!

Again, I look forward to keeping up with your story, as I'm sure many, many others are too.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 07, 2011 9:51 am 
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Poor guy? LMAO! You do know that we were 8-8 last year correct? That's like unheard of as of the last decade so put that in yer pipe and smoke it. Okay, maybe not the best thing to say. On another note, I really don't know what dose I was on when I took Clonodine. I just know it dropped me like a punch to the temple. I will check it out. I do know that Xanax is addictive. I was taking it for about 3 months and had no issues stopping it. I really used it as a sleeping med. It mellowed me out and helped me sleep good and when I woke up I had no groggy type feelings or was not sluggish like I was with other sleeping meds. I stopped the Xanax because of what I heard about mixing sub and benzos and because I was diagnosed with sleep apnea and they said xanax could actually increase the episodes where I stop breathing. On that note, has anyone ever heard about that? Central sleep apena in Sub or Opiate addicted folks? Man that thing kicks my ass. Last night I woke up at 12, 1, 2, 3, 330 then just stayed up. It really blows.

Oh, down to .50 today. I had no issues on .75 which was strange. I thought I would. Alcohol seems to be helping when I start getting the PAWS or what I call PAWS with me, excessive yawning, watery eyes, itchy nose, etc. However, I'm noticing that 2 glasses of wine has turned into a bottle of wine a night and I sell it to myself as "It's wine. It's good for you." but I know better. I am not trying to trade one addiction for another but I'm pretty certain I am an alcoholic as well. I'll fight the sub battle first then take on the juice.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 18, 2011 11:09 am 
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Hello All!

Alright so over the past few weeks I have not been around a computer to log my progress. Made a move to a new house and no internet for a while. Anyway, am down to .75 mg per day and on Monday am dropping to .50. I really gotta tell ya that I thought I'd feel a little discomfort when I went to 1MG but not so much at all. It scares me though. I'm wondering if I am going to hit a dose and then be like "Oh hell no!" then ride it out because I am scared to go lower. We shall see. I will post next week with how I am doing on .50mg.

On another note, I went to go see a shrink the other day and told him about my plan to come off. He gave me no help whatsoever. Nothing more than "You should attend our outpatient treatment at the hospital" ($$$-I have PPO Insurance).
He saw dollar signs I guess because he did not even get into diagnosing me. When I asked him about a game plan both support wise and meds wise his only comment was "Let's see how you feel when you have everything out of your system then we will re-visit that." Uhhhhh what? Let's see how I feel after stopping 3 years of suboxone? What an idiot. Anyway, if anyone knows of any good addiction specialists in southern california please let me know.

See ya next week!


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 18, 2011 11:12 am 
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jleets wrote:
Hello All!

Alright so over the past few weeks I have not been around a computer to log my progress. Made a move to a new house and no internet for a while. Anyway, am down to .75 mg per day and on Monday am dropping to .50. I really gotta tell ya that I thought I'd feel a little discomfort when I went to 1MG but not so much at all. It scares me though. I'm wondering if I am going to hit a dose and then be like "Oh hell no!" then ride it out because I am scared to go lower. We shall see. I will post next week with how I am doing on .50mg.

On another note, I went to go see a shrink the other day and told him about my plan to come off. He gave me no help whatsoever. Nothing more than "You should attend our outpatient treatment at the hospital" ($$$-I have PPO Insurance).
He saw dollar signs I guess because he did not even get into diagnosing me. When I asked him about a game plan both support wise and meds wise his only comment was "Let's see how you feel when you have everything out of your system then we will re-visit that." Uhhhhh what? Let's see how I feel after stopping 3 years of suboxone? What an idiot. Anyway, if anyone knows of any good addiction specialists in southern california please let me know.

See ya next week!


Really quick note: I did go to .50 and hit a little snag and went back up to 1MG so am trying to drop the level again. Just wanted to note that in case anyone saw my previous post where I went to .50 temporarily.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 18, 2011 12:45 pm 
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jleets wrote:
jleets wrote:
Hello All!

Alright so over the past few weeks I have not been around a computer to log my progress. Made a move to a new house and no internet for a while. Anyway, am down to .75 mg per day and on Monday am dropping to .50. I really gotta tell ya that I thought I'd feel a little discomfort when I went to 1MG but not so much at all. It scares me though. I'm wondering if I am going to hit a dose and then be like "Oh hell no!" then ride it out because I am scared to go lower. We shall see. I will post next week with how I am doing on .50mg.

On another note, I went to go see a shrink the other day and told him about my plan to come off. He gave me no help whatsoever. Nothing more than "You should attend our outpatient treatment at the hospital" ($$$-I have PPO Insurance).
He saw dollar signs I guess because he did not even get into diagnosing me. When I asked him about a game plan both support wise and meds wise his only comment was "Let's see how you feel when you have everything out of your system then we will re-visit that." Uhhhhh what? Let's see how I feel after stopping 3 years of suboxone? What an idiot. Anyway, if anyone knows of any good addiction specialists in southern california please let me know.

See ya next week!


Really quick note: I did go to .50 and hit a little snag and went back up to 1MG so am trying to drop the level again. Just wanted to note that in case anyone saw my previous post where I went to .50 temporarily.


I'm glad to hear that you're still hacking away at this. I know how tough it is. I went from 1.25 to alternating between 1 and 1.25 and guess what? I actually have had a tough time of it! It's amazing that it would be so rough. It's a cinch to drop at the high doses, even in big chunks. These lower doses are very tricky. I imagine that the Sub is being ripped off my receptors like velcro or something. Anyway, here's my two cents worth of advice. If you drop and it's too much, try going back up just a tiny bit. Like if you go from .75 to .5 and you get too sick, go back to .75. Then, you can reduce more easily by alternating days for a little while. It really does make it easier. Don't feel bad about getting stuck, because that's really normal at these tiny amounts. It's not in your head and it's not just you. This is H.A.R.D.

Oh, just be really careful with the drinking. I'm a recovering boozer and it's legal but that doesn't mean it won't take you out. Just be very, very cautious, k?

laddertipper

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 18, 2011 4:02 pm 
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Hey jleets,

Thanks for the update.

We're pulling for ya, man.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 28, 2011 12:54 pm 
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@ LTripper-Thanks for the info. I will try that. On the booze issue.....becoming more of an issue and what used to be 2-3 glasses of wine is now a bottle so I know exactly what I need to do. Spoke to the wife about it and changes are being made as I type to how we drink right now. Don't want to become a drunk and it would be easy to do with my personality. The biggest thing for me was when I thought about how my kids see me every night with a glass of wine in my hand. Not cool. Celebrations, holidays, in moderation....cool. But every night? Nope.

@ Romeo-Thanks man.


So an update..............No internet at the house right now so had to wait to get back to work in order to update y'all. I have 2 more .75 strips then have .50 and .25. My goal if you remember was to be off by 3-24......my son's birthday, but I was not ready. @ .75 I can tell that I am a little more lethargic, edgy, negative....etc. So hopefully doing this as slow as I am will limit those feelings. Have not gotten sick yet but man oh man the sneezing and the watery eyes before I go to bed and when I wake up? Damn. Signs of things to come unfortunately. Oh and restless leg syndrome. I probably burn 800 calories a day just from my leg bouncing and moving around all the time. Anyway, I will be more consistent with posting, especially when I am completely off. Hopefully that helps someone along their way to doing the same thing. Praying for you all.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 28, 2011 1:17 pm 
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Oh man, yes please watch the booze. I loved wine and that's what got me started. It started with a glass of wine and then two and then three and then the bottle. Then it went to two bottles of wine. Then it went to vodka because it wasn't as much sugar so it was 'healthier' and I wanted to be able to be a nice, slim and trim drunk. LOLOLOL!!! If you don't stop the boozing in its tracks, you'll wind up like me, never able to drink again for fear it will take everything over again. If you want to keep your ability to enjoy your wine, now's the time to step up the moderation factor.

So, you didn't make your goal. No big deal, because frankly, you were going a bit fast. As long as you are staying put or going in the right direction, you are winning, right? I'm trying now to get to .75 and HOLY HELL....my body flipped out last night after I went to .75 for two days. I mean, I was S.I.C.K. So, obviously I need to alternate between 1 mg and .75 a while. I think being on Sub for so friggin' long is making this really tough.....Still, we are going to prevail!!!!

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 28, 2011 4:15 pm 
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@ L Tripper-Yeah I know what you mean. I thought about that as well. I love a glass of wine with a good meal and one after and that's all it was. I also workout and thought about exactly what you said, sugar....carbs....= fat. So started to mix in rum n diet cokes and so...yeah...I know exactly what you mean. Starting tonight we are doing 2 glasses of wine. 1 at dinner and 1 before bed. If I can do that and stay consistent I will be ok. I'll keep you posted.

That freakin sux about you getting sick. :( You are soooooooooo right when you say that being on sub as long as some of us have makes it even that much harder. I picture my brain stem and all the receptors coated in sub and screwing everything up. I agree that this medication can and does save lives but there is a price to pay. I'm not knocking anyone that has to stay on it or anyone that got off of it and tried to or achieved sobriety but man oh man this medication kicked my ass. 3 years later and I put on 20 lbs.....developed central sleep apnea....sex drive is way down from normal....testosterone levels are 40% lower than a normal 39 year old (took blood test at docs).....energy is sparse at best and depression? Really hitting me. Especially as I lower the dose. I sound like a whiner but it it what it is.

Anyway, we all shall get through this. It takes an iron clad will, tight game plan and a solid support system. The support system on my end is okay but this forum really helps. I appreciate not only the people that respond but reading about people who took the time to share and as a result have helped others.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 28, 2011 5:10 pm 
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jleets,

Good for you for realizing you weren't ready to quit sub by your son's birthday. I know that must have been hard to watch his birthday come and go and you're still on Suboxone, but it was for the best. Just keep working that dose as you can and you will get there.

Sneezing and watery eyes are par for the course here, so is the lethargy, the edginess and the negativity. I know it sucks, but it's normal.

I found that giving my legs a good work out right before bedtime would kill the RLS for up to 2.5 hours. Give it a try.

Ummm, as far as the sex drive thing goes....when I quit sub, my sex drive returned with a vengeance, I felt like I was 17 again!! You better tell your wife to get ready!!

Hang tough man.


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Fond Du Lac Psychiatry
Dr. Jeffrey Junig, M.D., Ph.D.

  • Board Certified Psychiatrist
  • Asst Clinical Professor, Medical College of Wisconsin

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