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PostPosted: Sun Dec 21, 2014 7:31 am 
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Hi,

So, I’m following up from another thread I started a week ago about using Tramadol to ease the withdrawals. I wanted to start a new thread because I’m quitting now with no opiates. Dr. J responded to a previous post about Tramadol and here’s what he said-

Quote:
When you are feeling your very worst, that is a sign that your endorphin systems are completely shut down. THAT is what causes neurons to start generating new opioid receptors, to take the place of the receptors that have been made insensitive by tolerance. If you take an opioid and activate those endorphin systems, you turn off the process of regenerating new, more-sensitive opioid receptors.

Your best bet is to avoid all opioids, especially if you are in the position of just 'holing up' and avoiding people. Of course, if you become depressed or suicidal you must get help... but if you can keep your wits about you, take warm baths several times per day and wait. If you do that, you'll be feeling much better in two months. If you take tramadol, you may be struggling for twice that long.


I got really freaked out after reading that and some other posts on that thread so I stopped taking the Tramadol and will not touch it again. I’ve had Grand Mal seizures before, it was one incident about 10 years ago, had two seizures one at work and on at the hospital. Then they gave me meds to stop them. Holy freaking scary!!! They were caused by suddenly stopping a benzo. There are a lot of scary things regarding seizures. Some of the main ones for me were that I was actually having them to begin with (with no seizure history) and with the second seizure, I was at the hospital talking with a friend who came to visit. The next thing I knew there was all this commotion. My friend told me I had another seizure. I didn’t even know it. I was just still talking to him like nothing ever happened. Had he not been there, I don’t know if anybody would have caught that because nobody else was in the room when it happened and I don’t think I was hooked up to anything except liquids at that point. I was reading other people’s experiences with Tramadol. I can’t believe how many people have seizures from them, many who have never had seizures before and many who are on low doses. Okay, I’ll admit, going that route was a huge mistake, I’m glad I posted about it and stopped taking the Tramadol quickly, I knew I was going to take the Codeine though. It allowed me to have a couple of "normal" (aka not in withdrawal) days to rethink this, restock on groceries and medications and other things I think will be helpful.

The codeine hasn't worn off yet but will in the next few hours. I don’t have any more and don’t want any more. I don’t consider this a “relapse.” I hate that word and it can make people feel like shit when they need to feel encouraged. Just some trial and error in coming off Sub.

So I’ll keep you posted. Please keep me in your prayers and I’m praying for all of you as well. I know I can do this. Maybe this will be a cakewalk. Maybe not. Regardless, I’m ready to power through them and get through this. It’s a few weeks or couple months at max with the physical withdrawals. I can handle that, one day at a time. I’ve been on Suboxone almost seven years so coming off is scary, but I know I can do it.

Thank you. Have a great day!

Sage


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 21, 2014 8:34 pm 
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We're happy to have you here, Sage! Welcome!

Amy

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 Post subject: Day 2
PostPosted: Mon Dec 22, 2014 8:52 am 
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Hi,

So I feel much better than I thought I would. I was prepared for the worst (which may still be coming and that's okay, even withdrawals 4x what I'm feeling now isn't bad). I looked up the Codeine to see if it's still in my system and if that's why this doesn't feel so bad. It may be a little bit, but midday yesterday the sneezes started (like 4-8 sneezes in a row, that happened probably at least five times yesterday). Felt a little bit of chills. Felt a little restless leg so I took 1/4 of a Clonodine and that took them away (that stuff is strong, not sure what the normal doses are but I take the .1mg pills and cut them up, taking a whole pill feels too strong. I slept almost all day yesterday and all night last night!!! Body feels a little heavy but not like it did last week. Woke up a little sweaty but not too bad.

It made me wonder, when I was taking the Tramadol, Clonodine and Clonopin, if that was making the symptoms feel much worse, not better. I've been reading other people's stories about coming off Sub for so long and having been on it myself for so long, I was prepared for the worst. Hey, it may still come, this is only day 2 and the Codeine was in my system until probably late morning yesterday. I'm still counting that as day 1 though.

So that's where I'm at. What an empowering feeling to do this without any other opiates!!!! Feels like if I can do this, I can do anything!!!

Don't have the energy to do anything outside of being in bed today but that's okay. It's snowy outside and nice to look out the windows. I have plenty of movies to watch and books to read. Will probably stick to movies for a while, easier to space out to than reading (I want that to change at some point, I used to be such an avid reader and I love reading books, but find myself spacing out to anything Netflix these past few years, do read a lot online though.)

Hope you all have a great day. I'll keep posting and letting you know how it's going.

Again, thank you Dr. J for your post. It means a lot that you took the time to write that. Thank you. I hope it helps other people too.

Have a great day everybody!!! :D

Sage
xoxo


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 22, 2014 1:03 pm 
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Sounds like you're doing very well Sage.

It might get a bit worse in the next day or so, but I wouldn't think by very much. You put in the hard work of a gradual taper and thus shouldn't get hit too hard. As long as you are prepared to feel this low grade WD for a few weeks then I don't see why you wouldn't be successfull!

How is your sleep? That seems to be the most common complaint in people who have tapered.

All in all I think you are prepared for this. Don't let other people's horror stories scare you. Each of us has a different experience with suboxone jumps, if you are expecting the worst you will usually get it. I have read many stories of people who didn't think it was all that bad. Try to focus on the improvements each day. And remember what Dr. J told you, the pain of wd is proof that your receptors are re-generating!

Good luck!

Q

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 Post subject: Day 4
PostPosted: Wed Dec 24, 2014 9:29 am 
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Hi,

Thanks for your post. Yes, I agree a lot of it is a mind game and have tried to limit myself to reading only positive stories about people tapering and/or stopping Suboxone. For me, reading the horror stories just feeds into the fear, which I'll admit kept building over time, making coming off feel like it might be the so so hard. You know what I'm realizing? All that time I spent being freaked out and scared about the withdrawals, most of it was a waste. It really isn't that bad (I did taper for months before coming off though). I was also comparing coming off now (at around .75mg per day when I jumped) to when I tried to come off before (at 4mg per day, I think the last day or two I took 2mg before stopping, but still it was basically a 4mg jump) and that was awful.

Today is day 4. I've been sleeping quite a bit surprisingly. More than I thought I would. Broken up sleep but usually at least two hours at a clip. Yesterday was probably the toughest (still not that bad though) with the main symptoms being my body feeling heavy and no energy, but I expected that, have no plans and lots of movies to watch and books to read. Plus, it's around that time of the month (sorry guys, I'm going there) and I'm usually in bed the first two days anyway so I just try to look at it like when this cycle is over, I'll be feeling much better. I feel better than yesterday but am not dancing around the house yet. A hot shower is a good goal for today. :D

Didn't need to take Imodium until the evening of the second night. I'm just taking very small doses when I feel I really need it and stay as hydrated as possible. I do have some Clonopin, Clonodine, Gabapentin (Neurontin) and Imodium. My feet get cold so I wear double socks and have a heating pad. Keeping clean dry t-shirts nearby helps so if I wake up all sweaty I can just change shirts quickly.

I do tear up or flat out cry a lot. I'm still really grieving for my best friend who died in October. One minute here, the next minute gone forever. Heroin. She had been doing so well for years too. It was a total shock to everybody. Listened to a Dave Matthews and Tim Reynolds concert on Youtube last night and just let myself cry it out. She and I used to listen to Dave a lot together. I still can't believe she's gone. I cry everyday. She has a beautiful baby girl. I want to be an ongoing part of her life and her grandparent's lives (who are now the primary caretakers). Her older brother died unexpectedly a few years ago. Not the same circumstances but sort of similar. Just a bad decision made when he was drinking one night that turned out to be deadly. Their parents just buried their last child. Both were amazing people and are missed terribly. It just sucks, really really bad. I'm so grateful their parents have one grandchild and are the primary caretakers for her. I can't imagine what this is like for them. The baby gives them a reason to go on and they are very involved in their church group and have lots of good friends around them. I'd be EXTREMELY concerned about their well being if they didn't have the baby. I'm still very concerned of course and stay in contact with them regularly.

Didn't plan on stopping Sub right around the holidays but that's when I completely ran out. I look forward to celebrating next month when feeling better and I'm glad I said no to all plans for the holidays. It's just too much right now. We'll celebrate next month.

Happy Holidays to you all! Be safe and have fun! :D :D :D

Sage
xoxo


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 24, 2014 5:10 pm 
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Fear Nothing But Fear itself. Much love


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 24, 2014 7:36 pm 
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I'm so sorry about the loss of your friend! And her parents burying their second child! It is good of you to want to be there for her little girl and parents. I don't want to be harsh here, but if you are going to be in this child's life, make sure that you're not going to be another person who suddenly disappears. In other words, you need to keep working on your recovery and never let down your guard. It means that if you're about to relapse, you need to go back on bupe until you don't need it anymore, even if you don't want to.

As I said, I'm not trying to be harsh on you, because I think it would be a very noble thing if you become a special auntie to this child. I'm just saying what you already know, that this little girl need stability in her relationships with people.

You're doing so well! Keep up the good work and have a very Merry Christmas!

Amy

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 Post subject: Day 6
PostPosted: Fri Dec 26, 2014 9:21 am 
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Hello :)

Hope you all had fun for the holidays!!

I'm kind of in shock at how easy this has been overall. I'm trying to think of why. Yesterday I felt great, got up, took a shower, did some chores, wished family and friends a Merry Christmas on the phone. I feel even better today. I've been thinking about why this might be. Here are the supplements I've been taking for a long time-

A New Chapter women's multi-vitamin (with all kinds of good stuff in it)
An Amino Acid blend (with all of the amino acids I think, got this and the other supplements at an organic store)
Garlic (500mg per day, the non-smelly kind)
5-HTP (100mg per day, a supplement that helps with serotonin production, do not take this if you are on any supplement or anti-depressant or any other medication that affects serotonin. Taking multiple medications or supplements that affect serotonin can cause serotonin syndrome which is quite scary from what I've read. I stopped taking this when I had my stupid experiment with the Tramadol because I knew that affected serotonin and restarted it a few days after stopping the Tramadol. There are many brands out there and for many, it's experimenting with the different brands and dosages. Some of the stories I've read about people who have been seriously depressed for decades, nothing seemed to work, but this did, it's really amazing, and of course we're all different and for some people they found no benefit.)
Udo's Oil (this has supposedly the exact ratio of Omega 3-6-9 that the body needs, it's an oil I take a couple teaspoons of most days, you can find this in the refrigerated section at any organic store)
A strong probiotic blend (again, found usually in the refrigerated section of any organic store)
Rescue Sleep (this is a spray made by Bach Flower Essences that helps calm the mind and helps with sleep, this has been very effective, even if I still can't sleep, two spritzes on the tongue do calm the mind)

Other than that, I have smoothies just about every morning for breakfast with bananas, berries, greens, raw protein powder, greens powder, rice or almond milk and whatever else I may have that that I can toss in. I can't even taste the greens and get a good serving of veggies first thing in the morning. Usually don't feel like eating in the morning but don't mind drinking the meal. It fills me up for a couple of hours. Sometimes I'll have another for lunch if I don't feel like eating. I'm not vegan but do eat as much organic food as possible, limit meats and try to mostly stay away from dairy (but I love a good pizza and some good cheese and crackers sometimes). When I do eat meat, I try to buy organic, grass fed, no hormones or antibiotics. Yes it's much more expensive than the cheaper meats, but to me it's worth it. And knowing what fruits and veggies carry the most pesticides and which ones don't. There's the "dirty dozen" and the "clean fifteen." It's good to know what these are because it's not necessary to buy every last thing organic in my opinion. And it can get quite expensive buying everything organic. The crock pot is awesome especially for people like me who aren't into cooking. Many meals made at once and I put most in containers and freeze them so there's always some good food around the house.

I also try to stick to non-GMO foods (non-genetically modified organisms). It can be hard to tell which foods do and don't have GMOs in them but many have a label on them as "part of the non-GMO project." I'm not buying into the theory that GMOs don't affect humans negatively. A GMO food that was designed to make a bugs stomach explode but they say has no affect on humans?? Sorry, not buying it. What about the billions of microorganisms in our digestive system that are critical to our health?? I just don't believe it has no effect on humans. We're all the guinea pigs with GMOs in my opinion and the most powerful companies making GMOs are very tied into the government. Maybe you've seen some the articles about GMA (Grocery Manufacturers Association, an organization with all of the heavy hitters in food companies in this county) fighting labeling GMOs. I believe Oregon just lost a battle to label them and Vermont is currently tied up in lawsuits with the GMA. If GMO's do no damage to humans, why wouldn't they be proud to label them?? Why would they lawyer up, bully and sue any state that thinks about mandating GMO labeling if they do no harm to humans?? (okay, that's my GMO rant :) )

Another thing I do regularly is dry brush my skin. We lose a lot of skin cells each day. It's one of the ways the body releases toxins and dry brushing regularly helps that process, stimulates the lymph nodes, helps with circulation and I've heard can even help get rid of cellulite. I use a regular brush you'd buy in the store with a long wooden handle on it and brush my skin before taking a shower (and use a dry washcloth for my face and neck). Yes, of course showering helps slough of the dead skin cells but they come off easier when the skin is dry. I use good lotion. The skin absorbs what we put on it so someone said once- if you wouldn't drink it, don't put it on your skin and I think that's good advice.

I buy organic cotton tampons. These are MUCH more expensive than regular tampons but they don't have all these other fibers and chemicals in them that regular tampons do. I was getting regular infections each month after using regular tampons. The big companies are constantly experimenting with various fibers, perfumes and chemicals and with regular tampons, many of the fibers come off and build up inside. There's a video on YouTube with a woman showing the difference putting a regular tampon and organic tampon in separate glasses of water. It was unreal to see all of the fibers immediately come off with regular one and none with the organic. A very knowledgeable massage therapist once said to me- do yourself a favor, if you do nothing else, buy organic tampons. I eventually took at that advice and have had no infections since switching. It's kind of a pain because you can't buy them in regular drug stores or Walmart (around here anyway). I buy them at organic stores and try to make sure I'm always stocked up.

I've also spent most days in bed since my best friend died so what's another few weeks? This wasn't a huge transition to have "down time" so knowing I'd be in bed and not making plans or having pressure for the holidays helped. I write in a journal a lot. I've heard writing in a journal (and on this forum I'm sure, especially getting interaction with others) can be as effective as talking things out with a therapist or friend. Listening to music helps, it makes me cry every time lately, but it's healing.

That's kind of my routine right now and the products I buy. Again, we're all different, this is what works for me and I hope you find the right combinations of food, supplements, routines that best suit you. Researching foods, supplements and alternative treatments has been a hobby of mine for a while, especially after dealing with a period of extreme fatigue and I didn't know what was causing it. It's been a lot of trial and error for me with supplements over the years. There's some great stuff out there and there's also a lot of crap out there. Supplements are not regulated by the FDA so do your research. The bulk of what I've learned has been through KrisCarr.com. She's an amazing woman who was diagnosed with incurable and untreatable lung and liver cancer at age 30 (Crazy Sexy Cancer, Crazy Sexy Life, Crazy Sexy Diet and Crazy Sexy Kitchen are some of her films and books, awesome info). All she could do was totally change her lifestyle and what she put in her body. She's 40 now I think, the cancer is still there, but it hasn't spread or gotten larger. She's really done major research, has been on Oprah, Dr. Oz and is a huge inspiration (and she's totally obnoxious and hilarious, it's fun reading her books, blog posts and watching her vlogs, she's got quite the personality!!).

Some things I haven't been doing but will start again soon are exercising (aerobic, weight training and yoga), sitting in a sauna, meditation and acupuncture. I'm sure adding in even one or two of those (especially exercise) will make a big difference.

I'm still very tearful but tears release endorphins so hopefully that's helping with the healing process. Again cried tons of tears last night. It does feel like a good release after a good cry. Sleep hasn't been great the past few days I can usually get a few hours a couple times of day. Feet are still cold sometimes and had a little lower leg pain yesterday but that's it.

Amy- thank you for your post. Yes, I agree with what you said. I'm okay with the fact that if I do start getting cravings, I will go right back on Sub immediately. I will not mess around. Too many friends, friends of friends and people in general have died this year from heroin overdoses. Another friend, I heard, just had to have his arm amputated after he relapsed after being clean for months. I will not mess around and have no problem going right back on Sub if needed. I've come so far, we all have, and I'm will not risk throwing it all away again. It's too serious now. It's too in my face. It's too damn scary.

Hope this post helps and hope you have an awesome day!

Sage
xoxo


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 Post subject: Day 8
PostPosted: Sun Dec 28, 2014 3:37 am 
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Hello,

Can't sleep much. Yesterday I felt out of it, like not getting enough sleep over days is starting to catch up with me. I keep saying to myself, once I get a couple of hours of sleep I'll be feeling better. I need to go up and down a flight of stairs every time I want something from the kitchen. Sometimes that's been hard but it does force me to get out of bed and go up and down a flight of stairs at least a few times a day.

Feeling all these aches that don't usually bother me so much, some are from the withdrawals, but some are from an old back injury, cramps and lying in bed too much. Just definitely feel some pain now off the Sub, more so than when I was on it. I think all of which will go away mostly or completely with exercise. Arrg, though, that constant lower left back aching no matter what position I'm lying down in, it gets so annoying. I hurt it in early 2008. After a few months it didn't bother me at all for a few years. Then about 2.5 years ago I was helping a friend move and must have twisted something or aggravated the old injury and that kept me laid up and in a lot of pain for a few weeks. Like my sciatic nerve in my pelvis area, hurting in an area where it can't be massaged out or put ice or heat on it, just hurting. After it got better after helping my friend move, it stayed as a periodic dull ache and hasn't gone away. I know the answer to this problem (at least somewhat) is doing some gentle yoga regularly. Maybe that was why I didn't feel any pain for years- those were years I was doing yoga regularly and on really high doses of Sub. I can't tell exactly what it was that kept the pain away completely and maybe it was a combo of things, but I really hope yoga will help.

It's weird the stuff that comes flashing through my mind. It's not cravings (thankfully) just flashes from the past of some of the more intense, scary, triumphant, truly happy, sad or grief filled moments from life so far coming back to me. Interesting. I keep thinking about all of the times I could have died but didn't. It gives me chills thinking about it. I've come so far and in a lot of ways this feels like the beginning again, which is okay, maybe a fresh start or just having that (mostly) blank slate in front that I can create my life with/on in the upcoming years. I don't have to see the whole staircase, just the next step.

I'm trying to keep it positive, and overall it is, just this is the part that gets hard for me, the lingering mild withdrawals and not sleeping like I usually can. Knowing I'll wake up each day or at least most days feeling better helps. I do get a few hours and then wake up with the same low energy sometimes. I know this will change. I guess a couple of not so great days are going to be expected. Not knowing which days those will be though and expecting the best helps.

Time to get back into life again at least somewhat. These are my downfalls or blessings, depending on how one looks at them- I didn't have much set structure in my life before, I do work, it's part-time, the bulk of which I can do from home. I live alone, no kids and am quite a drive away from most family and friends. It's been relatively easy to kind of hide away for weeks at a time without anybody knowing what I'm doing or not doing. I felt like I was suffocating before doing so much and moving so much, so some time alone has really been a gift. I do have an awesome fat cat with me who I love dearly, she's so cute, cuddly and lovey.

I had moved so much these past few years, that now being in one home for months and what will be at least til at least March has been really nice. I was trying to do too much, was spread too thin, was too stressed out in multiple businesses I wasn't happy in, just not really clear what I do want anymore, exhausted all the time and after trying multiple jobs, starting businesses in a few areas and moving to and from multiple states, living in mostly hotels or motels, I just got tired and felt spent and was no longer interested in or really passionate about anything. I love life and business coaching and am on many people's lists and part of a group coaching program. For the most part I just had to stop opening the emails and going on everybody's different websites. I got so sick of being bombarded with self-help and business stuff, some of it's great info, but I just needed a break from most of it. I quit the main business I wasn't happy in. The other one I still have, and it's had it's good and bad moments, and much questioning whether to continue. I finally decided I will continue, because other people are involved and it's not fair to them to just up and quit after working with them for years and it definitely has its rewarding and happy times, as long as I don't let everything pile up. Having a boss can be underrated and working from home can be overrated. Too easy to isolate working from home in one's own business. There's always multiple ways do things, many decisions, doubts and fears that come up, nothing ever feels truly "caught up." Sometimes, it's easier and happier having other people just tell me what to do. As time had passed, I started carrying so much tension in my upper back for so long, I thought it was permanent. It slowly faded when I moved here at the end of the summer and it's been almost completely gone for a few months now. I'm so grateful about that. I still haven't found where I want live in the upcoming years or what state that will ultimately be in, decisions for another day.

I think my soul was saying- stop looking externally for things that can only be found internally and slow down. Stress really does affect us. Chilling out a little bit and not being so hard on myself has helped immensely.

Hope you have a good day!

Sage


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 28, 2014 9:31 am 
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Hi Sage! Congrats on getting off ALL the opiates!! Great job!!
I was also a "long term" sub user (8years for me), so I understand the "fear" of coming off (and STAYING off) after it has become such an ingrained part of your life.
I've also taken Tramadol and codine, so yeah, stay away from that stuff - I'd get rid of it all and just make sure you don't have any access in case of a weak moment. Sounds like you have an otherwise healthy lifestyle. Make sure you have a plan to fill up those endorphin receptors in healthy ways (excercise, laughing, love, sex, etc) to fill the "void". You may also find yourself changing things you were just "accepting" while on subs- changes for the better! That is what has been happeneing for me anyway, more than 6 months off subs! I really truly do NOT miss them AT ALL. I know I feel better and function way way better overall. I wake up now early, full of energy and ready for the day! My sleep is also regular now (that was a marathon waiting for it to return to normal, but it has!!).
So, just wanted to stop by to give you some encouragement and let you know I think you are doing an AWESOME JOB!
:D BF
PS. imo the clonidine helped quite a bit, so I would still take that if your bp is still high, just monitor it. It can make you a little groggy if you take too much, but I found when I regulated my bp it took down that "creepy crawly' feeling quite a few notches so I was way more comfortale.

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 Post subject: Changed my mind
PostPosted: Tue Dec 30, 2014 1:25 am 
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Hi,

Thanks for your post butterflying.

On what was day 8 or 9, the withdrawals felt like they were getting worse. I'm getting to a point where I'm so sick of being sick and decided to go back on Sub, even if just for a month. I feel defeated somewhat, or maybe disappointed in myself is a better way to say it. There's too much piling up right now and I'm getting more aggravated with myself for not getting things done. Any one day in withdrawals wasn't bad, it's that cumulative lack of sleep, restlessness, back pain intensity and being sweaty that was getting to me. (I can't get much sleep still though, can't sleep much on it or off it right now.)

Also, I spoke with my best friend's (who passed away a couple of months ago) friend and was able to get some answers to questions I've been wondering about. We were kind of able to put some pieces of the puzzle together of the last few months of her life. I'm really grateful to have some of these answers now and wasn't expecting to ever get some of these questions answered. It does bring some closure. Talking with him about my experiences with her from years ago did stir up old feelings and memories of using to a point that made me realize (or rationalize) that now is not the best time to do this. I don't feel strong enough anymore. How quickly things change, I didn't see this coming and thought I was in the clear, especially getting past the one week mark.

I don't feel strong enough to continue without Sub this at this point and now that it's been a little over 24 hours back on it, it is what it is and beating myself up about it isn't going to help. I'm going to stabilize on the lowest dose I can get to without being in withdrawals, which I hope is under .5mg, stay there for a few weeks and then continue doing the liquid taper. I need a couple of weeks to catch up with everything and don't think I could have rationally handled being sick in bed many more days or weeks.

I'm sorry to disappoint people. Thought I had it in the bag. I pray that this was the right decision. What's done is done. I just don't want to feel sick anymore right now, it scared me how easily the old stuff was stirred up. I didn't get any cravings for heroin, just not having that safety net of Sub is too much right now. Being honest- I could have pushed through it and continued adjusting without it but I didn't. It is what it is. I don't know what else to say.

Thanks.

Sage


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 30, 2014 1:58 am 
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Hey all,

I do not want to discourage or interrupt anybody's process or give anybody second thoughts to what they are doing. I'm still following and reading your posts guys and gals, I'm just not going to comment in your threads right now because I just went back on Sub and don't want to affect anybody else's experiences doing this with my decision to temporarily go back on a low dose of Sub.

You guys can do this. Like I said above, there was no one day that was too bad and maybe being in bed most days for a few months now was part of my downfall in suddenly not wanting to continue (it was a quick decision to get back on, didn't debate about for too long, just where I'm at). Only you know in your heart what's best for you. If it's not the right time, it's not the right time and that's okay. If it is the right time, awesome!!

I just don't want to affect others experiences in any negative way especially so early in people's first days and weeks off Sub so I'm not going to comment for a little while on other's experiences in tapering or stopping Sub. If you haven't heard back from me, that is why, but know I'm still reading your posts, thinking of you and silently routing you on.

Much love,

Sage
xoxo


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 30, 2014 3:52 pm 
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Hi Sage,

I just want to commend you for being brave enough to do what was right for you. I have said here before that staying on suboxone is NOT A FAILURE! The only way you could fail would be to relapse and die. That's it. As long as you are still alive and fighting to stay sober you have NOT failed.

I went through a similar experience as you did when I attempted my taper. I had a thread here where I received a ton of support from all of the wonderful members of this forum. When I made the decision to stay on the subs I felt like I had let people down, and I was just downright emberassed and ashamed of myself for not following through with my jump. I stayed off the forum for months afterward because I was afraid I would have dissapointed everyone who offered me support for so long. Guess what? It was completely silly, and I figured that out immediately upon my return. You still have alot of valuable input for others here, and you have proven that you are doing exactly what it best for you and can encourage others to do the same. Please don't feel like you can't offer support to others who are trying to get off subs just because you haven't done it. We are all in different places on our journey's. Some will be able to get off the meds if it's what they want, some won't. I don't think that everyone SHOULD get off. But the worst thing that could happen is for someone to struggle to get off, then be smacked in the face with terrible cravings and avoid going back to subs because of their pride...I'm afraid that happens more often than we would like to admit.

You should be proud of yourself for having the courage to do what you know is right for yourself. If anyone here doesn't get that, then they are probably on the wrong forum.

I for one look forward to seeing you around from here on out. Okay?

:wink:

Q

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 30, 2014 4:55 pm 
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I absolutely agree with Q. I couldn't say it any better than her. U shouldn't be disappointed or ashamed that ur now bk on subs. I'm very glad u went bk to ur sub recovery instead of full blown opiates! That in itself is something that shows u know what's best for u. Only u know what is right for u, and if ur choice is to go bk instead of stopping, then u made the right choice and should be proud of ur decision. U can always taper off at another time if u still want to. There isn't anything wrote in stone with recovery, everyone is different and what works for one may not work for another. So ur doing just fine. Be proud of urself and u know what? I am way to scared to even try a taper right now, so I consider u very brave. Keep us updated and good luck!

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 30, 2014 7:33 pm 
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Sage, anyone who doesn't understand where you are coming from or is disappointed in your decision to go back on sub, has an agenda that doesn't include supporting people unconditionally. Everyone who has commented on your thread so far should be letting you know that you are doing the right thing for you right now. This isn't about whether it's better to be on sub or off sub. It's about you, in your situation, recognizing what you are needing. Anyone who thinks you were doing awesomely a few days ago should also be able to recognize that you are doing just as awesomely today in making the decision to go back on sub instead of relapsing on your DOC.

It is definitely a tough call to try to go off sub while you're still actively grieving for your friend. During grief you don't necessarily know what tomorrow is going to hold emotionally. I believe that your life needs to be pretty stable when you are going off your maintenance medication.

We are here for you, just as much as we were a few days ago. We are too educated about the nature of addiction to judge your decision.

Keep us posted on how you're doing!

Amy

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 30, 2014 9:31 pm 
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Hey there Sage,
No one is here to judge or be dissapointed in anyone else.. We've all "been there" in one form or another, and understand you are doing the best you can in your particualr situation. Focus on your progress, not perfectiong (often quoted but meaningful advice). Do what you need to do to take care of your health and sobriety,and if that means staying on subs until (and if) you are really ready to jump, then so be it. Be kind to yourself, and have a blessed New Year!
:D Peace, BF

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 03, 2015 9:13 am 
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Thank you very much. I greatly appreciate your posts and you're right- it's not defeat. It's strength (but still kind of hard to look at it that way).

Later in the day on the 30th, I found out my awesome teenage nephew was in a skiing accident and airlifted to the hospital. He will be okay and should make a full recovery, but it took a couple of days to know that for sure. He's still in the hospital and has some bleeding in the back of his brain, a concussion, pulmonary edema and some facial numbness. He'll have to rest for weeks when he gets home for everything to heal. When he did wake up and knew who he was (was not the case initially), he was able to recall everything right up until the accident and made a joke that the tree was out to get him. We knew he'd be okay when he made that joke. Trying to be as supportive to my sister as possible who was inconsolable and couldn't find words to say much. I'm so glad he's going to be okay. Not having my own children, my nieces and nephews mean the world to me even though I don't see them as often as I want to.

The stuff that went through my head- Is he going to live? Oh my God he actually stopped breathing for a period of time. He doesn't know who he is. Traumatic brain injury? Will his memory come back? Is he paralyzed?

This awful unexpected stuff keeps happening. I can feel myself go into this shock like disassociative state where I almost lose time just sitting here spacing out. I don't want to go anywhere, or do anything. Had I not gone back on Sub that day, I would have when I found out he was in an accident.

You know what I do lately when I haven't heard from a friend, especially after I've reached out? I look up their name with the word obituary next to it and pray to God I don't find one. How messed up is that?? Just so so many people have died, it doesn't seem unreasonable to me to look them up like that anymore. When this first started happening consistently in 2012 (friends dying unexpectedly I mean), it was so sad and scary. Now, it's just alarming, losing or almost losing someone every month. The bulk are heroin related but some are car accidents, other accidents, in November a friend was visiting his father and doing laundry. His father had broken off the engagement to his girlfriend earlier that day. She shot and killed both of them. Then she called 911, she said no need to rush, they are definitely dead. WTF WTF WTF???? This was a wonderful guy in his late 20s and his dad in his early 60s. One of the sweetest guys I ever met. He lives out of state and was just there to visit with his dad and do some laundry. I know his brothers too who are probably going through an indescribable hell having lost a brother and their father on the same day.

I texted another best friend (me, her and my friend who died used to run together years ago, up until that point if one of us was struggling we'd stay away from the others because we didn't want to hurt them or mess up how good they were doing, but that last year with all of us living in the same state, we were all running together hard and it was so bad) saying- you are not allowed to die young do you understand me?? I said I'm a strong person, but if I lost you too, I couldn't handle it. I said if you do die young, you just wait, because when we meet again, I will kick your ass all over the sky and then do it again. She's so smart and has been doing really really well in recent year but I just wanted to make sure that was clear to her. She texted back, same goes for you sweetheart. You can't die young. If you do, expect daily grillings from my dad until I get there to kick your butt!! I said we don't have the luxury of smoothing things over or letting things slide with each other anymore (however small it may seem). No judgments or competition or comparing, just straight up love, support, honesty and concern going forward.

So I've stabilized on .4mg per day- .2mg in the morning and .2 before bed. I'm glad it's that low. I've never been on a dose this low actually. Just slowly trying to get caught up with all of this stuff I've been procrastinating on for so long. It feels overwhelming but if I do like one hour a day (which usually ends up being two or three) then I'm making progress. Sometimes, like this morning, I slept a little later and woke up in withdrawals (stomach upset). So I quickly dose and feel not sick after. Am still definitely catching up on sleep from these past few weeks and days in particular. I was so so tired, and thought I'd be able to quickly go to sleep when I went back on, but that didn't happen. Then the accident happened and forget sleep. Now I'm just starting to catch up with sleep.

Thank you so much for your posts and support. It means so much.

Have a great day!

Sage
xoxo


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 03, 2015 11:17 am 
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Sage

I am glad you made the right decision for YOU. I just want to ditto what everyone else has said!

So Good to hear your nephew is going to be ok! That is so scary!!


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 03, 2015 12:50 pm 
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Do you know the impression I get when reading some of your posts? That you're still in shock from your friend's death in October. And any other scares you have bring you right back to the state you were in when you found out. Like, the shock of your nephew's accident brought you back to finding out your friend died. Does that make sense or ring true to you?

If it does, I want you to know that I totally understand that and empathize with you. I was still asleep the morning of September 3, 2002, when my cell and my landline started ringing. I answered both of them at the same time. It was my dad and my sister and they were both sobbing and incomprehensible. My dad had found my mom dead that morning when he woke up. For months, and even years after waking up to that horrible news, if I received a phone call at a weird time or if a phone call woke me up, I would go into an internal panic mode.

I'm telling you this because sometimes it's hard to see what is happening when you're in the moment with it. I only realized this pattern for me after looking back on it years later. Meanwhile, these negative feelings and panic were the roots of my addiction. For someone else they could be the roots to a relapse or period of depression. I want you to be as self aware as possible so the continuing trauma from your friend's death doesn't push you to a really negative place.

I hope that all makes sense to you. I can try to clarify what I mean if it doesn't. I think that sticking around here would be very good for you, so I encourage you to do that.

Amy

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 Post subject: Thank you
PostPosted: Mon Jan 05, 2015 5:41 am 
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Hi All,

Amy- I'm very sorry for your loss regarding your mom. It's sucks to lose a mom. The words are indescribable as you know and it's not about "getting over it" it's slowly learning to live with it. Mine was unexpected too. Ours passed away slightly over one year apart- September 1, 2000 (it says the 2nd on her death cert but she died on the 1st, wasn't officially pronounced dead until after midnight). That was a whole different story and I felt partially responsible for her passing initially so oh, I know that feeling. It was hard to tell the grief from self-pity from panic to shock anything else at that time, especially when using drugs to attempt to cope, but is a little easier to see in hindsight. Again, I'm sorry for your loss. Just sucks all around losing a parent, especially unexpectedly.

And yes, I agree with you, I'm still going back to that shock state from when I heard the news she passed away in October. That was absolutely shocking hearing that news. I remember getting the call and immediately started yelling "NOOOOOO!!!" and crying. My friend had to tell me a couple of times and I thought it was a sick joke or something at first. Having gotten some answers to questions surrounding her death, having more time pass (especially a new year starting) and talking with her mom regularly has really helped in recent weeks and days. Her mom said- no matter how much we dig, or who we question, or what we do, nothing is going to bring her back. She's right. Once I let that sink in a little, it seemed kind of pointless to keep letting questions swirl around in my head, especially with a beautiful baby to focus on. So I do feel like I'm slowly moving through the grief and shock.

Sitting here all day, at this point, doesn't help. So this week I created a fairly simple schedule, that involves 15 minutes of exercise (anything, just move my body for 15 minutes, that's it), showering and putting on daytime clothes, at least on the weekdays. That may seem like nothing to many but it's a big step for me after being in a different pattern for so long. And working at my desk instead of sitting in bed. A couple of hours each area and am setting the alarm on my phone so I know when to switch gears. So that starts today.

Thought I was stable at .4mg of Sub but last night I took .2 and still felt like withdrawaly like crap. So I took another .2 and that made a huge difference. I don't want to move it back up that much overall. I hope that was a one time thing but have a plan if it isn't. Tonight, if that happens again, I'll try .05mg at a time if I feel I need to do that again.

I hope you all have a wonderful day. Again, thank you for your support. It means so much.

Sage
xoxo


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