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 Post subject: Day 18....Should Read!
PostPosted: Thu Feb 03, 2011 8:04 am 
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Okay so I know that I am the new guy on the block but finally got to a point that I had to talk to someone. It's very difficult as most of you know to w/d around people that just don't understand and i feel empty like I have no one to talk to. So here it goes.

Like everyone else, I too have a story but that's not the important part. I have spent the last 8 years using, mostly pain medication. I had a friend that told me about a Dr. here in Dallas that provided this new treatment that would help me quit and get my life back in order. *MY .02* If you plan to get on suboxone plan to stay on it! Now I will admit that maybe I didn't see the most reputable Dr. and maybe I was treated improperly. I started receiving the subs back in 2007. She gave me a 90 pill a month prescription of 8mg subs. I don't know about you but most of the reason I was there was because I had a problem abusing medication. So like any substance abuser I tried to do the same with the suboxone. For nearly a year I took 24mg a day. Finally I told the Dr. that I was ready to come off that I was having a hard time sleeping and was under-performing at work. She explained to me that I would need to taper down first. I spent the next year tapering from 24mg a day to 8mg. In June of 2009 I decided to take a dive and go cold turkey from 8mg a day. Well believe it or not I made it through the 1st week but that's all I could physically handle. It was not until then that I got online and started reading posts and it has taken me over a year just to get the courage to even try to quit again.

This time around I was able to go from the 8mg down to 2mg and took a dive from there. I have noticed a consistent message no matter what forums I read that no matter where you jump from you are going through w/d's plain and simple. So if you plan to get off of them be prepared! This first couple of days were just like last time not terribly bad due to the suboxone half life, it's not until you get into days 3,4,5,6,7,8,etc... that you really start realizing how big of a mistake you might have made switching to the subs. Now keep in mind that I have a history of drug abuse. As a teenager I was addicted to Heroin and spent several months getting clean from it. During my 8 year stint I quit the pain killers several times cold turkey. I guess the point is that w/d's were no secret to me. I guess my point is that I don't think it matters how far you try to taper down and how far you spread it out. You will and are going to experience a living hell for a minimum of 10-14 days. (not medical research but my experience and it seems like from anyone else that has made it this far about the same consistent message)

How I did it and am still doing it
1. A very supportive wife who really doesn't understand but is trying to help me heal.
2. A determination that could move mountains
3. I read a book with my wife called "End Your Addiction Now" by Dr. Charles Gant and Dr. Greg Lewis
- This book gives you a holistic approach to restoring some of the destroyed neurotransmitters in your brain and to get it functioning properly again. This is a mixture of several amino acids, vitamins, minerals, etc.... I know beyond a shadow of doubt that the combination of medicines I am taking daily help me to survive, I begin feeling better each time I take them 3 times a day.
4. For me I had to hit my knees and give up, admit that I was ready to change and committed to it. I know everyone has their own belief system and I am not trying to push "religion" on anyone but it was nice to be able to have at least 1 person to talk to.
5. I will admit for the first 7 days that I had muscle relaxers that helped with the leg cramps and valium for sleep and anxiety.
6. The BG's// Bubble guts...well let's just say that they are still there.
7. Every single day since I have started the detox process I have woken up early naturally because it is hard for me to sleep through the night. Usually between 4am - 6am and I go straight to the gym. I do cardio only and for about 30-45 minutes and then it's the hot tub, steam room, hot tub, steam room, hot tub, steam room. Usually by the time I leave the gym I get at least an hour of feeling pretty normal.
8. I unfortunately during all of this have a business to run and lots of employee's who rely on me so I have not missed a day of work, although there have been days I just wanted to curl up into a ball and lay under my desk. I have to drink several cups of coffee all through the day, red bulls, 5 hour energy's, anything I can to try and put a little pep in my step. My lack of energy has been killing me!
9. So I will say that after about 14 days some of the more difficult w/d symptoms started to fade but even today day 18 I never know what to expect.
10. Day 18....it's 5:45am and I have the BG's still and very small chills but in all fairness it's extremely cold outside and could be tied into the chills a little bit.

I can't stand the unpredictability, one day I wake up and think to myself....Wow I think it may be over! Then my day starts and some of the symptoms start creeping up and I know that I am still going through the w/d's. Now other days I get up and I know that it's going to be a much tougher day. I have read posts of people that talk about going through this for 30,45, even 60 days. I hope and pray to God that my day of relief is right around the corner. My body is out of survival mode at this point and 65-70% of the w/d symptoms have subsided at this point but it's different from anything else I have ever been through. With the Heroin and PK's it was a week of being sick lots of sleep and than right back to being normal. Not with the subs, it just doesn't work that way. At least not if you stay on them as long as I did, BIG MISTAKE!

Because I have gotten this far I won't give up and I think the most valuable lesson I have learned is that because of the pain and suffering this time around I truly believe it will make me stay sober for life. I can tell you that I will never let myself be in this position again.

Anyone looking to quit...I highly recommend it! Anyone looking to an alternative to your current lifestyle and turning to subs well.....I guess the good news is that
1. You won't get arrested trying to buy drugs or have to go to multiple Dr.'s trying to track down prescriptions
2. For the most part as long as you have the subs you will feel fine (it does come with it's fair share of side effects)
3. It's not very expensive even though the place I went to would not accept insurance for payments.
4. I know they say you don't experience euphoria but it's just like any other opiate i have tried. At first it gave me a high and then my body adjusted and it was a dependency issue just to feel normal like anything else.

Thanks for anyone that's tuned in, I know I can be long winded and I would love to be able to answer any questions about any particulars or even be support for someone that wants to try and quit. Believe me, I'm ready to have my life back and you should be too.

Regards,

BigMistake


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 03, 2011 8:24 am 
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Hi big and welcome. The one thing I want to stress is that you would have likely had much less discomfort had you tapered down below 2 mg. That's still a pretty high dose to jump from. The people who have the least amount of withdrawals - some almost none - are the ones who tapered down into the micrograms. That said, you can't go back and change it.

You said that if a person gets on sub they should plan to stay on it. Then you said it may be a big mistake going on it to begin with. I guess I'm confused with the contradiction there. The thing about suboxone is that it actually allows people to taper down, something that almost all addicts simply cannot do with full agonists. And many people (including myself) do actually stay on suboxone. It really depends on the person and their addiction and relapse history. What works for one person will not necessarily work for others. Addiction and recovery/remission isn't a one-sized-fits-all kind of thing.

lastly, try to get some exercise - most people swear by it for helping w/d symptoms. Also, do you have access to clonidine? It's probably the best thing to help with the withdrawals.

Good luck to you! I know you can get through this. Just remember - it's not getting "clean" (hate that word) that's difficult, it's STAYING that way.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 03, 2011 9:17 am 
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Hello! I am glad you decided to post. I understand where you are coming from as I jumped from 12mg at one point and found it pretty miserable. For me the withdrawal symptoms weren't as bad as oxycontin withdrawal so I was able to work, but I felt pretty crappy. I had to take some narcotics in between surgeries when I went off but it seems to me that most of the withdrawal was gone after about 6 weeks. At that point, it was my lack of energy and lack of interest in anything that was getting to me pretty badly. Daily functions were difficult like making coffee or watching television, or just being interested enough in my job to do well at it. I also totally understand the whole feeling of waking up and feeling like everything is great and the next day is a nightmare.

In my opinion, the hard part about suboxone withdrawal is that it does last much longer than oxycontin withdrawal even though I believe it is way less intense. You still have cravings and mentally it is torture. The lack of energy and insomnia will get to anyone really. BUT....at least you can work. I remember oxy withdrawal and I couldn't work. Not at all. I remember getting through a week and then buying more oxy because I just didn't feel as good as normal. I think that long lasting lack of energy and cravings issue was in fact still there and probably would have been with oxy had I ever stayed off it longer than a week. But I never could go that long. At least with suboxone you can and at least you CAN taper.

I feel for your current situation and think if you just hang in there 3 more weeks you will pretty much be over it. I wish you the best and am glad you posted. Everyone learns from these experiences.

Cherie

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 03, 2011 9:49 am 
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Welcome! I appreciate your story, but have to wonder what your long-term recovery plan is? You have some things in place, but mention nothing about what you have done to change your behaviors (old ones) and to support continued maintenance. Most of us have stopped, often many times, but using is but the tip of the iceberg!


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 03, 2011 10:33 am 
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Hi Big,

Congratulations on what you've accomplished so far. I think the gym/steam room is great...don't forget to increase fluids....flush your kidneys, too. Whenever I was in withdrawal and recently when trying to get off methadone and switch to sub (was on methadone maint. for almost 3 years) I couldn't really exercise, but I did the steam room thing. And the vitamins, esp. high dose B complex. Helped with energy.

Something you said hit me and I am NOT at all saying you won't be successful this time around. I hope you are and you sound committed which is what it takes. And that you have support from your wife, and God, which is something I talk about all the time....ad nauseum!

But, what you said is what I've said so many times to myself. 'I won't ever put myself in this position again'. I started saying that at the age of 16 when I was drinking jack daniels in high school and having hangovers!! LOL....I said it whenever I'd get through fentanyl withdrawals...ok, well that never really happened until I went into treatment. My access was too high and it was impossible to stay away....but even when I was in a detox in 1999 from vicodin and they gave me an antagonist on day 3 of my withdrawls and put me into precipitated withdrawls (they admitted it was a msitake, gave me tylox after 2 days of hell and I had to start over. Nice) and I got sicker than I've ever been....40 hours of hell....I said to myself "I'll never put myself in this position again...I'll remember THIS time for sure". Well, I've put myself in that position many more times since my worst hell.

I only say this because I know that I have said so many things to myself knowing I mean them but now realizing that even remembering the hell I went through won't keep me off opiates unless I'm doing other things. Moman asked about your recovery plan....and that is all I'm saying, too. It's huge in my mind right now based on my 3 day relapse on benzos about 2 weeks ago...You did talk about some of what you do....pray, exercise, have a business...things that are really positive. Supportive wife is great, do you have other support in the community? I guess for me what I need the most is someone to talk to. I guess a sponsor, but anyone who gets it....the forum, others around me in recovery. Whenever I go to a meeting here I feel like it puts me one day further away from relapse...and I know many hate 12 step programs. I used to as well. I had 5 years clean without any replacement rx and was doing the AA thing and really liked it. I learned something at that time that was vital to my life and that was to get out of myself by helping others. And a bunch of shit happened and I stopped going to meetings, stopped asking for help, thinking I could just live my life. I fucked it up big time. Relapsed for 2 years and said "I"ll never do this to myself again". Well, I did...several more times! It's just amazing to me. When I tried to go back to meetings in my previous city I just hated them. Now, however, I am in a new city and have found quite a lot of support and in places I never expected.

I don't say this to put a damper in what you are doing...on the contrary...I am amazed at your strength and determination and I know you can do it! I am sure I speak for all of us when I say I hope you do it. And what I'm talking about above is, of course, just me. Not you. I know this. I just read that and thought 'uh oh, been there!'.

Keep us posted on how things go for you and hopefully you are on your way out of w/d and begin to feel normal again....I feel your pain...


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 Post subject: Big Mistake
PostPosted: Thu Feb 03, 2011 3:25 pm 
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Congratulations on getting this far. 2 mg is a pretty high place to jump from, so at least you know why you are having significant symptoms. I don't know whether or not tapering to a low dose is worth all the hassle and the time it takes, but I'm doing it that way because I'm to afraid to do it any other way. I'm at 2 mg right now and to think of just stopping HERE is like :shock: SCARY!!! :D I'm trying to have faith that it will help make it better, but I do agree that most people have symptoms after jumping even from a relatively low dose.

Of course, everyone is going to be concerned about your chances of relapsing and justifiably so. Most people don't succeed in staying off the opiates once they get off of Sub. The chances are slimmer than slim. Just remember to stay completely honest with yourself. If you start to think of using again to alleviate your symptoms, don't feel bad about turning back to Suboxone. It's a hell of a lot better than relapsing onto regular opiates!!!! I had a horrid drinking problem, which may not seem so hard to beat when considering how hard opiate addiction is, but for me it was very tough. I relapsed over and over and over. I was drinking a gallon of vodka a day at my worst and I'm a small woman. I don't know how many times it took me to detox both inpatient and outpatient until my last stint in the detox hospital where something went "CLICK" inside my brain and heart. Something changed inside me. I attribute it to God, because nothing else makes sense. I leaned on meetings for years, because those people cared about me despite my history. We were all in it together and I could have NEVER made it without them. Yes, there are lots of problems with meetings, but I was lucky to find a few good ones and I was dedicated to them. Soon it will be 5.5 years since I last relapsed. I want nothing to do with it anymore. I want a better life. In the beginning no one but me believed in myself and I couldn't blame them. I'd said so many times I'd quit and I thought I meant it and I did, but some part of me wasn't quite ready yet, I guess. I just had to accept that only time would show that I truly meant it this time. I remember clearly in my AA meeting hearing the statistics regarding the percentage of us likely to successfully stay off alcohol for 1 year and then 5 years and then 10 years. It was very bad. Not as bad as opiates, but BAD. I did take antibuse for a while to protect myself from relapse. When I stopped it, I knew I was ready to, and I promised myself that I would go right back on it if I felt the urge coming back. At this point, my husband can go out of town and I can be here at night when the kids are sleeping and I can have alcohol in my house and nobody would ever know I drank it, BUT I DON'T DRINK IT. The thing is that I would know, and that is all that matters. I would know and God would know.

I'm telling you this as a way of saying that it's really unlikely to stay sober, BUT it's possible, BUT it's hard, AND it's way harder once you are off of Sub, and you have to work hard even after the w/d is over if you really want to maintain sobriety.

I sincerely appreciate all the information. I'm ordering that book right now. I love all the tips you gave. I know I need to start exercising and I'm going to try to follow your example and put more work into making my body accept this taper more comfortably. I'm not in recovery for opiates, but I've been on Sub for pain since 2005...a long time....and the fact that it's hard to get off has been the honest to God reason I've been struggling to justify staying on it!!

THANK YOU!!!

laddertipper

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 03, 2011 9:36 pm 
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BigMistake,

Yeah seriously, I have a lot of respect for the 18 days so far. As I know, it is one hell of a battle. I jumped at twice your dose, around 4-5mg, my intake was all in jumbles due to the holidays and stress at work and school. Just took what I thought appropriate, obviously this is where my addictive side took over. Anyways, I would agree with you about 60 percent on the fact of going down low is a waste. I think tapering is the hard and drawn out part. I have seen a lot of individuals on forums struggle very much with tapering but then again who knows if they are doing it correctly. I would agree with hatmaker though that once you get down to a low enough dose about .5 and lower that the jump isn't as steep. Sure, you will deal with withdrawals, it's inevitable. It's a necessary evil in order to be clean in my eyes.

You should be under control at about 504 hours roughly 21 days. This is typically when all my "harsh" symptoms were gone. The thing that took the longest for me was chills, sneezing, anxiety, lack of sleep, energy,depression. All went away probably by the end of week 4, roughly 28 days. I'm at the end of 33 days and I still have slight anxiety and I'm sure my energy levels haven't peaked yet and get hit with waves of depression which are very light. Sleep is much better, but I cheated and am taking an OTC sleep-aid for probably another week or so. Just something to look forward to is that you won't believe how much better you will start to feel at the end of the month. It was like within 4-6 days I just started to feel much better, would I say "normal" probably not. I'm not even sure what that is at this point. It's a long process and I think will typically take 6-8 weeks to feel pretty darn good. You should definitely seek some outside help. It was quite HUGE for me to take this step because I thought I didn't need it. I was on Suboxone, why the hell would I need help? You do though, it will help so so much. I look forward to my 3, 3 hour sessions a week. Good Luck to ya, and keep posting.

-JBoss


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 Post subject: Day 19....
PostPosted: Fri Feb 04, 2011 10:06 am 
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@hatmaker

I'm sorry if I sounded like I contradicted myself. I guess the way I feel at this point is that if I had just sucked it up went through the w/d's from the pk's I was eating that I would be in a much easier position that I am in now. In other words if I could go back I would not have gotten on the subs to begin with. So when I said if you plan to take them, plan to stay on them my indication was that this is the worst experience in my entire life. Far worse than w/d'ing from Heroin or pk's.

@everyone else....including u hatmaker :lol:

I can't tell you how much better it makes me feel just to hear from some people that understand what I am going through. I had heard and read all the rumors on expecting to feel bad for several weeks but until now just couldn't fathom that being the truth. I was done with the tapering and skipping days and all the other B/S I was just ready to be finished. Outside of the sleep issues I was experiencing there wasn't much reason for me to get off the suboxone. I took it and it made me feel normal for the first couple years. It wasn't till recently that the sleeplessness, constipation, etc... my overall feeling started getting so bad. I just felt like my quality of life just wasn't there....that's why I made the decision to take the jump.

Well today is day 19 and I woke up again around 4:30am but was able to crash again for another hour or so. I would rate today about the same as yesterday but won't really know until I am done working out and taking a shower. I just took my normal regiment of vitamins which is:

First two weeks:
DL-phenylalanine or DLPA 2000mg x 3 a day (not to be taken with anti-depressasants)
L-Leucine 500mg 3x a day
L-methionine 500mg 3x a day
L-glycine 2000mg 3x a day (I drink this and use it to swallow all the other pills)
L-tyrosine 2000mg 2x a day
GABA 2000mg 3x a day
L-taurine 1000mg 3x a day

These are all amino acids that are designed to help your brain naturally start producing the chemicals you need to start producing endorphins and enkephalins again on your own.

I started taking this second half on week two - this is the rapid detox portion. Now I can say that the first couple of days I felt worse and I am guessing because it was forcing my body to get rid of all junk and not just limited to the subs but all junk.

Lecithin 2000mg 2x daily
Probiotic 25 billion daily
Vitamin E 400iu
Vitamin C 1500mg 3x a day
MSM 2000mg 2x a day
Alpha Lipoic acid 300mg 3x a day
Glutathione 100mg 2x a day
Glycine 1500mg 2x a day

In addition I take a the ultimate man multi-vitamin from the vitamin shop but still take extra potassium, chromium, and iron because my multi-vitamin did not have enough for the amount recommended. Also, I take a pill that has calcium, magnesium, and zinc.

It is a bunch of pills..maybe two handfuls worth 3x a day but I think it has helped because as I mentioned before I can feel a noticeable difference when i take them and when I forget to. Besides these are all natural supplements that our body would normally take from good nutrition. Even though I try to eat well good nutrition is hard to find these days period.

@Jboss

Buddy, I hope you're right. I'm not sure what normal even feels like but keep thinking that one day I will wake up and I will recognize the feeling. I am getting close to that 504 hours that you were talking about and I have to admit that really yesterday and even this morning it's really gotten down to the sneezing, lack of sleep, energy, oh yeah and bubble guts. I'm sure that some of the bubble guts are self induced due to the amount of vitamins I am taking. The chills are close to gone, I can't stand that part. Going through the chills for 3 weeks is crazy!! The hot tub, steam room really helps with that as well as the regiments I am taking above. I kept getting that flushed feeling like when you take niacin but nothing above has niacin in it. I didn't find out until later that high doses of magnesium does the same thing. At any rate it makes the chills go away completely for just a short amount of time.

As far as staying sober, I don't really have a game plan outside of what I already said. I don't go to meetings, I don't have a counselor, and don't have a support group. I think the difference for me is that I never intended to be sober, even when I went in for the suboxone. It was just a cheaper way to get what my body needed to survive. I have a wife and children and now I have you guys. I will look into some alternatives but would hate to think I would put myself through all this only to go right back. I have been on subs for so long that I don't even remember the euphoric feeling I fell in love with years ago that got me started. I'm not a drinker or any other type of drug abuser so there's not too many other gateways that should lead me back down that path. I don't have any friends that are drug abusers. I've been a closet user that just decided to get straight. Like someone mentioned above everyone has their own recovery system. I will keep you guys posted and I will let you know when I get back to "normal".

Thanks again for listening.

-BigMistake


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 04, 2011 10:29 am 
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Thanks for the update and the clarification. I'm really sorry to hear you regret getting on suboxone. But didn't going on it do what it was supposed to do? Didn't it get you out of the cycle of active addiction (ie remission)? Plus with suboxone we CAN actually taper down whereas with full agonists/our DOC, it's next to impossible to taper.

Try not to look back and have regrets. Regrets do us no good whatsoever and just keep us living in the past instead of today, which is the only thing we have control over anyway. You said you don't even remember the high you were seeking...didn't suboxone give you the time to get out of those self-destructive habits?

I'm not trying to minimize your feelings about suboxone - not at all. I just want you to focus on the positive instead of the negative. When we can change that perspective, things tend to change overall for us.

I wish you the very best and hope you get to feeling better very soon. I'm glad you found the forum and I'm confident you'll find the support and information you seek - I know I did. Keep on keeping us posted. :D

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 04, 2011 3:58 pm 
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Hey Big

". I have been on subs for so long that I don't even remember the euphoric feeling I fell in love with years ago that got me started."

That struck me in the weirdest/best way possible. I thought for a couple of minutes about it. It's so true with so many users. That is why a lot of people graduate to bigger and better things and this is why I believe Suboxone to be good in these terms. I thought and so should everyone else about this for a second. I'm glad I haven't had a "euphoric" feeling in a while. I mean a long time, probably the first week of my Sub induction I felt euphoric and we are talking 2 1/2 years ago. I think this made it easier now that I'm finely feeling better, ya know? I haven't felt high in so many years that I don't want to chase it anymore. Sure, Suboxone was a wonderful "pick up" if you will. But shit, no high feeling. So what I'm saying is that, for me, it's been easier once I finished withdrawals and dealing with the mental part because I didn't jump from something that was giving me the euphoria. Sorta confusing but this how I look at it and it's helped greatly. It sounds redundant but every day is a HUGE step at this stage. I'm at the point where every WEEK is a big gain and eventually every MONTH will be a big gain. You are doing great. I'm a young guy so I'm sure with a wife and kids it can be pretty hard. I give a lot of older individuals in this boat SO MUCH credit, so much! Good for you. I'm here for you buddy.

-Jboss


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 Post subject: That's a lot of pills!
PostPosted: Fri Feb 04, 2011 4:33 pm 
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I am fascinated with the possibility that taking all that stuff could help me out but to be honest I am very leery. I take a multivitamin, but I take the chewable ones for adults. I do not tend to tolerate a lot of vitamins very well, meaning they make me puke. It's quite hard on ones stomach. IDK, some people have iron stomachs...

Maybe this stuff is available in a liquid? I'd probably have much more success with liquids. I'm supposed to take iron and I just cannot do it. Even if I take it at bedtime, I will wake up from a dead sleep and sit up and start gagging. Two handfuls.... :shock: :shock: :shock: However, if it works, it's worth some big time effort. Maybe I could space them out?

laddertipper

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 04, 2011 9:46 pm 
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laddertipper wrote:
I am fascinated with the possibility that taking all that stuff could help me out but to be honest I am very leery. I take a multivitamin, but I take the chewable ones for adults. I do not tend to tolerate a lot of vitamins very well, meaning they make me puke. It's quite hard on ones stomach. IDK, some people have iron stomachs...

Maybe this stuff is available in a liquid? I'd probably have much more success with liquids. I'm supposed to take iron and I just cannot do it. Even if I take it at bedtime, I will wake up from a dead sleep and sit up and start gagging. Two handfuls.... :shock: :shock: :shock: However, if it works, it's worth some big time effort. Maybe I could space them out?

laddertipper



I can tell u one thing for sure!! The cheaper the vitamins, nutrients, amino acids, etc.. the cheaper the quality. Just like anything else, u get what u pay for! That being said 90% of better quality vitamins come in gels or powders, not hard pills. Don't know if this will make a difference for u or not. I can promise u, and I apologize in advance for being nasty, that they will make u Very regular and have Very loose stool. Sorry, just stating the facts. I don't know if it's long term because I am only just past two weeks and I know that this is also a side effect of the w/d's. I would encourage you to find a good vitamin shop and stock up if u plan to try this detox plan. I don't want anyone confused I still went through major w/d's but when I took the above combination I saw a noticeable difference in two major areas, leg cramps and the chills. To me those are really the worst two anyway. The Funny part is that my wife told me that it also helps with the brain functions that make you crave alcohol and tobacco as well. I have smoked once since I took my dive and drank twice, the second time I had one beer. I know my bodies flushing everything at once and could be responsible for added W/d's from more things than just the sub's but I don't care, I want it all out of me and over with!! Last but not least, for God's sake eat around the same time u take all the vitamins. If ur not eating and have a weak stomach, u will Always yak when taking large doses of almost anything.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 04, 2011 10:10 pm 
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Jboss wrote:
Hey Big

". I have been on subs for so long that I don't even remember the euphoric feeling I fell in love with years ago that got me started."

That struck me in the weirdest/best way possible. I thought for a couple of minutes about it. It's so true with so many users. That is why a lot of people graduate to bigger and better things and this is why I believe Suboxone to be good in these terms. I thought and so should everyone else about this for a second. I'm glad I haven't had a "euphoric" feeling in a while. I mean a long time, probably the first week of my Sub induction I felt euphoric and we are talking 2 1/2 years ago. I think this made it easier now that I'm finely feeling better, ya know? I haven't felt high in so many years that I don't want to chase it anymore. Sure, Suboxone was a wonderful "pick up" if you will. But shit, no high feeling. So what I'm saying is that, for me, it's been easier once I finished withdrawals and dealing with the mental part because I didn't jump from something that was giving me the euphoria. Sorta confusing but this how I look at it and it's helped greatly. It sounds redundant but every day is a HUGE step at this stage. I'm at the point where every WEEK is a big gain and eventually every MONTH will be a big gain. You are doing great. I'm a young guy so I'm sure with a wife and kids it can be pretty hard. I give a lot of older individuals in this boat SO MUCH credit, so much! Good for you. I'm here for you buddy.

-Jboss



Damn Jboss, don't you know that depression is a side effect of w/d'ing?! LOL!! I'm not that old either but after reading ur post I feel like a fossil! :shock: I have a wife and Young children. I just barely busted 30....and u know what they say? 30 is the new 20, so if u consider that I'm only 20 Ha!!

That being said, my kids have been a big inspiration. I love my children and wife and right now they are my major support group. Don't get me wrong, they all have it very well!! The problem is that money only buys so much. I want to be able to give them a part of me that they have never been able to have. The part that I don't have to remember every time we leave to go to the park or fishing to grab a sub just in case. The part where we have to leave somewhere early because dad's not feeling well. In the evenings because I take the sub's once a day just before lunch I am burnt out and have no energy to do the things they want to do. I have to wrestle with myself to make a decision each night, do I take another sliver and risk not sleeping tonight so I can regain some energy or do I blow my kids off and make them play a video game or watch a movie. Those are decisions I'm tired of making and why I feel like my quality of life is so bad......or was so bad. I work so much already that it's a shame not to spend every free second of time with my kiddo's and wife. Plus I really think the sub's make me crave tobacco and alcohol which again lower my quality of life. Not to mention the more I ingest whether it's sub's, alcohol, etc....the less I want to do anything else but be a bum and sit on the couch.

By the way, today in my opinion was a 8 out of a 10 compared to the last couple weeks. Again the unpredictability really sux but I am hoping that day 20 promises even better things. I'll let u guys know in another 8-9 hours when I wake up. Until then........


BigMistake


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 04, 2011 11:28 pm 
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Big, I'm sorry if I came off the way I did. I did not to sound rude by anyways I'm sure you didn't take it that way. I was more or less giving credit to people who do have families, not the age factor. Although, when you do get a tad older everything is harder, including the withdrawals. But hell, just busting 30 your young as hell by all means! I'm sure having a family is a great inspiration especially your kiddos! Family is everything. Absolutely everything.

Yeah you will start to feel good in the next couple of days. It is VERY unpredictable. That is so so true. Part of the day you feel great, then something hits you funny and your back in a mental fog. The "well-being" feeling could last a few seconds and then just dissipate, and you wonder man, will that ever come back? Sure it will, it's all about time my friend. It's progressive and depending on how much time you take into your recovery will make all the difference in how you feel, long term. Life is too precious now a days for crutches and burdens. You gotta break free, got to get out. You have to live instead of exist. I'm sure I'll here back from you tomorrow. Night Buddy. Tomorrow marks 5 weeks for me :) Already!

Your Friend,
Jboss


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 05, 2011 8:10 am 
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Personally I think things actually get easier with age. We get more mature, smarter - and our experience lends itself to better decision-making. And we become more comfortable with ourselves, even more confident. We're more integrated and we know ourselves better. I think all of this applies not only to life in general, but even to something as specific as withdrawals. Anyway...that's just my two cents.

And Big - I really hope you get to feeling better soon. Thanks for the updates.

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 Post subject: Day 20 and still going
PostPosted: Sat Feb 05, 2011 8:53 am 
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@jboss

No, I have very thick skin and was just harassing you about the age comment. I agree with you to some degree that it's difficult going through the w/d's and having to show that weakness to my wife. Not to mention that it definitely doesn't nominate you for the father of the year award. I just keep thinking about whats to come. I know that even though I have suffered and made my family suffer that at the end of all this I will be able to finally give them 100% of me.

By the way, congrats on the 5 weeks! I'm sure buy now you feel like a different person compared to where I am today. However, I have admit that I am feeling pretty good this morning. Not great, definitely not perfect, but good. I will settle for good right now. All I care about is that I don't have anymore days where I go backwards. As long as I continue to feel and get better I don't care anymore how long that takes. Like I mentioned in the earlier posts the less tolerable side effects have pretty much gone away.

@hatmaker

I hope you're right. I hope through wisdom and experience does come better decision making. I know it's easy to say for anyone that's on day 20 of recovery that I'm over it, but it's never just that easy. I know that insanity is really what it would take for me to walk down this road again. This is why I am not just "getting sober", I feel that I am going through an entire lifestyle change. I'm hoping that all the reading that I am doing to try and reprogram my brain really works. I'm hoping all the praying I am doing, and honesty with God will steer me down a more righteous path. All the eating right and working out. Everything as a whole I feel like is an entire lifestyle change. The funny part is most of this lifestyle change began over a year ago when I first jumped from 8mg. Most everything else stuck except for being able to kick the addiction. So I feel that I have planted some pretty good roots and have paved the way for a sober lifestyle.

Day 20.... As I mentioned to jboss I am feeling so much better these last few days vs. the first 2 weeks. It's been probably a good 5 days since I have had the unpredictability issues as of before. At least it seems it's been that many days. I think I just realized as of yesterday that on top of the w/d's that I may have picked up a little cold or flu. I'm thinking that may have been tied into the w/d feelings....not 100% on that. Just know that I have been coughing up some mucus in the mornings that's yellow (details,details) and am pretty sure that means I have some sort of infection. Once the Dr.'s offices around here start opening up I will pay one a visit and see if I can get some antibiotics. Today there is virtually no leg cramps, slight chills (but it's cold outside and a little cold in the house), little exhaustion, but definitely that burden of being "normal" again. I know it's close and I will keep my eyes on the goal. Like I said earlier, I don't care how long it takes as long as I can get back to who I used to be one day. Just physically who I used to be, I think today the mental me is a much newer and improved model.

I was flipping through the radio stations yesterday and a song came on and I couldn't help but to think, "Hey this guys talking to me"! I know we all have those moments. The main verse said "And if this old life crumbles let it fade, let this new life offer be your saving grace" That's exactly how I felt at that moment....just let it all fade and keep looking forward to the new life offer. Well I got a little later start today then normal so it's off to take my daily doses, gym/steam room time, and then off to work. Wish me luck...

-BigMistake


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 06, 2011 12:05 am 
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@ Big, Hey what's done is done. You can't go back and nor should you regret any of the decisions you have made. This was something that I have always haunted myself about. I always think, "Do I regret abusing and using when I was young." One side of me says yes, you should regret ever picking up that first pill. But the other side of me says no! This whole experience will forever change you as an individual and for the better, the absolute best. That's exactly how I look at it, it was a little journey a veered off into. Everyone veers a little whether it being a workacholic, an abuser, a smoker, someone sinking into a rut of any kind (depression, anxiety, self inflicting pain, over eating, ect.). Yeah you know, maybe that award wasn't meant for last year. But hell, it's 2011, it's a new year and now you have the great opportunity of receiving that award, and you will! No one ever said we are bad people for what we have done. Yeah some half cheated, lied, and stole. All of which I did. I blame my addiction for taking my personality over and allowing me to do this. I would have never done these things if I were my normal self. So therefore, I don't regret a damn thing. Sure, I wish somethings could have "panned out" differently but it is what it is. You have to take the good with the bad and let me say I had a ton of good times during these days. A lot of positive memories with good people. It's a touchy subject and take it how you will but it's just my two cents on the whole regret topic. After writing this I feel better, I know where I stand now and I'm proud of myself. You should be too everyone has something to be proud of. This is one many! Keep in touch man.

Your Buddy,
-Jboss


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 06, 2011 12:27 am 
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Well I have to say that today was nothing more than a few hot flashes and complete exhaustion. I am at a point that I finally can say that I don't have any concerns of relapse. Not that I could immediately if I wanted to seeing as I threw an entire bottle of sub's down the drain about a week ago! I just couldn't have them in the house haunting me anymore. It was like I started this whole process with a built in contingency plan. I'm beginning to wonder if my people at work think something is wrong with me. It was easy the first two weeks I had the flu....but trying to explain all the red bulls and coffee is not working to well. I could drink 4 5 hour energys and start yawning in 5 mins!! the lack of energy is crazy!! I'm sure that it's tied into the lack of sleep and how hard I have been pushing myself lately. The light at the end of the tunnel is in sight and I can't wait to get to it!! I appreciate all the inspiration and support and look forward to reading more posts about other peoples recovery. Special thanks to jboss for all the encouragement!! I will check back in with u guys tomorrow. It's Superbowl time here in the big D! Go Steelers!!!!!!!!!




BigMistake


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 06, 2011 10:06 am 
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Hey BigMistake,

The lack of energy plagued me for a good while. I know the lack of sleep played a role, but I also think that recovery from opiates in general will produce this annoying symptom. At first, it seems like no matter what you do, there is that dang lack of energy and lack of motivation. As time went by, I noticed my energy levels would improve but my motivation was still lacking. I had to keep my mind busy with work and then on the weekends I would plan out little projects to get me through the day. The little projects really just served to keep my mind busy.

Opiate withdrawal is such a head game. You're up one day then down the next day. It's like trying to herd cats.

I hope that your able to reach that light at the end of the tunnel soon!


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 06, 2011 12:24 pm 
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Hey Big.

Yeah energy and motivation is one of those things that hit people differently on different time lines. I think you will notice a big difference at the end of your first month. This is when it was most noticeable for me anyways. I'm just a part-time stock guy at a mega discount liquor store. I've noticed that lifting things and all the other stuff that comes with the job have gotten increasingly easier. Like Romeo said, one day your up on your game and then the next you're down. It's a journey of unpredictability. I try not to sike myself out when I do start to feel good because I know there may be days where I will find myself in a mental fog. This is typically associated with the PAWS. Don't let those blindside you because they can easily sneak up on one self. From what I understand, I was told that a PAWS "episode" can last for a few minutes up to roughly 3 days. I heard that it usually comes after the acute withdrawal and can last from 6 months to 2 years. I think PAWS is another hairy topic because everyone's experience with this can be different. I try not to let these stories obscure my thinking.

Anyways, a big congratulations on the 3 THREE WEEK mark. That is a tremendous accomplishment. Honestly you will start to see big improvements over the course of this week. My energy and motivation were extremely low during the third week and by the 4th-5th just lifted out of nowhere. Sleep tends to be the big thing with this too. Your whole body and brain recharges and heals itself during a good nights sleep. So this is typically the underlying factor that effects us the way it does. Sleep is the most frustrating symptoms to deal with. I've read a TON of stories where people relapsed just because of sleep issues. I wasn't going to let a month of unpredictable sleep stop me that's for sure. Keep posting man and have a good super bowl weekend.

-Jboss


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