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PostPosted: Tue Jul 26, 2011 9:33 pm 
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:?: Hi. I'm new here. I'll make it quick. I dont have a huge habit like most other people that take suboxone. Last year in the hosipital for surgery i was on a 100ug fentenyal patch and morphine and oxy. So that was a large breif habit. I got home and flused away the fentynal. Then they gave me 25ug patches.... i flushed those too.

I hate the feeling of having an opiate in my system for a long period of time. It was like, i was loosing sight of myself, like i couldnt "check in" with myself anymore, and that i hated. so i tossed them. The oxy and vicodin on the other hand were breif acting... 4-5hrs later it was all gone. I am a college student and work in technical job that require alot of concerntration.... so taking small breaks with a couple percocet or vicodin was working for me, very well actually. I got to where i was only using about 2.5mg every 2 hrs of oxycodone. Really it was just helping with pain i have in my hip. Well, i was also going to every ER in the state to get it....really. I didn't have a Dr. that would prescribe it, and it worked as a tool for me so damn well. So thats how i got it. I tried poppy tea many times... i hate it, becasue it lasts so long. Getting to the point... Suboxone lasts a long time, like a fentenyal patch. When i got on this I was only taking about 20-30mg of oxycodone or vicodin spread out through out the day. And i was also buying them from some friend of a friend illegally. I called my Dr. and he wont see me for a month. Also, there is very little chance of being prescribed pain pills becasue they are so on guard now.... this is what pisses me off here.... i can go to a subxone dr. or a methadone clinic to get a HUGE dose of opiates, when all i need is a small dose.

I took my first dose of suboxone yesterday... the DR. told me to take up to 16mg per day. I paid an expensive amount for the film and went home... reading online i find out just a tiny bit is what i need. So i cut it into 1/16 and take one of those followed by 1/32 later that night, and 1/32 this morning... so that was .5mg .25mg and .25mg....

Sure it is blocking pain... but it's also got me half cracked out. I hate this crap. I cant concentrate to do my work. I didnt really sleep well last night. I do feel some kind of strange buzz... and i know i shouldnt be on it in the first place.... but i dont think i have any other choice. I know it helps people... but there has to be some other way to get pain relief that isnt so damn strong and last so damn long. (also immediately had sexual side effects and constipation and queezyness)... worst of all i just cant see to gain that solid sharp edge in my mind that help me succeed in my competitve work. its like a heavy subtle cloud. yet i cant not take anything... i've always had something in myself every day for the past almost 2 yrs.... I dont want to go down a worse road...

I've also noticed that i'm talking more then usual, which means i'm not listening and empathizing.... definetly due to this drug.... i hate that.... Also, my little dog is acting strange towards me... like i'm distant and weird or something. I only half care becasue i have the perpectual opiate buzz damnit.... i hate this crap.

I imagine nobody will like to read this, but thats me. any ideas?


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 27, 2011 2:14 am 
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not a "just stick it out" or "things will get better" or "you're an idiot, and shouldnt be on sub"???

:?: btw this stuff makes me crave more pills... anyone else have that effect?


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 27, 2011 8:14 am 
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Hi auspicious and welcome to the forum. I'm sorry to hear you're in such a bind. It does sound like you might not have really been the best candidate for suboxone. Were you unable to wean yourself off the other opiates?

The thing with suboxone is yes, it's very strong and long-acting. Some people do feel a bit of a type of "high" (but not quite) in the beginning of treatment, but it does subside. Also, suboxone is a partial agonist (whereas "regular" pain meds are full agonists) and it has a ceiling effect, generally accepted to be around 4 mg. At that point, the opiate receptors are saturated. This is what keeps withdrawals and cravings under control. At the extremely low doses you are taking, suboxone acts more like a full agonist and gives one lots of ups and downs because the opiate receptors are not saturated. This also likely accounts for why you are having cravings.

It's my non-medical opinion that you probably need to increase your dose slightly. Do you plan on using sub only to detox (over a short period of time) or for a bit longer? Let us know and maybe we can help you out a bit.

I hope this helps some. Feel free to ask more questions and we'll try to answer them.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 27, 2011 10:19 am 
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Yes, Sub is much stronger than the opiates you were taking, as well as having a 36 hour half life as opposed to 4 for oxy. So the dilemma is, do you raise your tolerance considerably by going to a maintenance dose of Sub that you won't feel (4mg), or do you just get off the oxy? The problem with being on 2.5 mg oxy every 2 hours is that eventually it will take 5 mg to get the same effect, then 7.5, then 10. Then you'll end up like the rest of us. You have to ask yourself, are you really just taking it for the pain, or does it help you "feel better"? If it truly is just the pain, there actually are some good non-narcotic options out there. I just got put on Piroxicam, it's an NSAID that I had never heard of (even though I'm am pharmaceutical hobbyist), and it works like a dream.
Personally, I wouldn't go on Sub for your habit. Oxy is really hard to get these days and getting harder by the minute. And don't forget, it's addictive! So maybe now is a good time to just end it. Believe me, none of this is meant to be flip or sarcastic. Probably most of the people on this forum wish they had the opportunity to go back and stop their drug use at the level you are at now.
Good luck, and let us know what you decide.
Lilly


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 Post subject: thanks for replying
PostPosted: Thu Jul 28, 2011 3:51 pm 
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:) :?: ok so i stuck it out for a bit.... I do have some questions...

what is the average half life of suboxone... .i saw that you said 36hrs. but other people are saying anywhere from 24-72 hrs. I'd like to track how much is in my system closely.

Also, some people are saying "less is more, with suboxone" what does that mean exactly.... if i keep my dose low, then will it continue to act as a "full agaonist"?

I really do use it for pain... but more so for the feeling completely. it really helps with alot of things, from pain to depression, to just feeling normal. I used to smoke pot all the time, and then drank. I didn't like either one, because of the judgement distortion. Opiates give the relief, (from various symptoms) without the judgement fog...mostly.

Also, my doctors is offering to prescribe SUBUTEX instead.... she says that it wont give me headaches like suboxone. My question is , is this more dangerous then suboxone, because i've read that it is the most dangerous opiate there is, becasue it can not be reversed with narcan due to how it bonds. (i am fairly paranoid about overdose, and resperatiory depression... i went to the ER twice from poppy tea, and once from fentynal). so is suboxone safer then subutex, and is subutex really more likely to be abused?

This stuff really is helping. It feels sometimes like a mild morphine effect, that comes on strong sometimes, and just a bit later dissapears... its very strange. Sometimes i notice i'm not breating quite as "normal" as i would like, but i'm getting used to it. Focusing seems to be a problem with this that i'm hoping will go away.

So am i just using it for pain or for other effects? again its definetly for both. i think i am addicted becasue i will do whatever i can to get it... plain and simple... i've lied to dozens of doctors and even opted to have a tooth pulled... thats crazy....

so in review, my main questions are about swiching to subutex , and also, evidence from a study that has shown an "average range" of half lifes...since it varries so much. I greatly appreciate the time taken to respond. Thank you.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 28, 2011 4:54 pm 
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The 37 hours is the mean (average) half life, the 24-72 is the range. Subutex has the same main ingredient as suboxone - buprenorphine. It's only missing the naloxone, which is there to deter people from shooting it up. That's the only difference. In fact there's really no chance of overdose with either of them, because of the ceiling effect. The ceiling means once you reach it, no matter how much you take, there will be zero increase in effect - no greater "feeling", no greater respiratory depression, etc. This is why the overdoses due to suboxone you hear about involve benzos or other respiratory depressants. The ceiling is generally accepted to be around 4 mg. But keep in mind that isn't necessarily where your cravings will be addressed or where the withdrawals will be stopped at.

Less is more with sub basically means that it's best to be on the lowest possible dose of sub necessary for YOU. In other words, if you feel no withdrawals or cravings at 6 mg, then there's no need to be on 8mg. In fact, you'll likely feel better on the lower dose. Don't compare your dose to others. It's individualized in that what I need to address my cravings won't be what you need.

If your doctor is offering you subutex, I'd take it. Lots of doctors won't prescribe it, but it does come in a generic form (whereas suboxone doesn't), so you can save some money.

Hope this helps.

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-As I have grown older, I've learned that pleasing everyone is impossible, but pissing everyone off is a piece of cake.

-I'm only responsible for what I say, not for what you understand.


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