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 Post subject: day 8 off subs
PostPosted: Tue Jan 12, 2010 8:17 pm 
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would small amounts of vicodin help with the horrible sub w/ds? or would that just make them last longer?


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 12, 2010 10:01 pm 
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It'll help with a relapse

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 12, 2010 10:21 pm 
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I am only personally speaking for myself and am not trying to cause any conflicts but what was the purpose of going on suboxone in the first place if a person is going to use an opiate that has the potential to be abused (such as vicodin) to get off the medication that was helping them? Maybe you need to take a look at if your ready to get off suboxone cause this is in ONLY my opinion...backwards thinking. You didn't explain why you were getting off suboxone, maybe you ran out I don't know. Im not coming down on you but it is considered a relapse (or thats what my doctor would call it) if you used Vic to help with withdrawls. Im sure I will have some objections on this forum but this is only MY OPINION.
I would contact my doctor and let him know how rough of a time I was having and maybe you can slow your taper down some and stretch it out a little longer, Im sorry that you are having a rough time and I will keep you in my prayers. Take care and I hope all goes well.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 12, 2010 11:03 pm 
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What the heck are you worried about APE?

"I’m sure I will have some objections on this forum but this is only MY OPINION."

Anyone that objects has no idea what they are talking about. You are 100% dead on in saying that a full opiate of any type should not be used to combat withdrawals from Suboxone. There are just no two ways about it. This is not a close call. The way to combat withdrawals from Suboxone is to go back to your previous dose for a little bit longer and then continue on your taper.

So Collinsec you need to talk with your Suboxone doctor about what is going on. And if you don't have a Suboxone doc, I hope you are able to find one as that is the real way to beat this addiction that we all share.

And Ape, don't worry so much about what everyone else thinks and have some confidence in yourself. You gave great advice. There is no need to apologize for it! No need at all.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 13, 2010 12:47 am 
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Well I have been in a suboxone treatment for 6months. I started at 16mgs and over that time stopped at 2mgs. I dont have the money to keep going back to him, it is the only one around the area and expensive as hell. I tried to ween myself as much as possible and told my dr. i was done. He told me i would only feel the w/d for about 3 days. So i figured walk in the park compared to oxycontin w/d. Vicodin was never my drug of choice to start out with, I guess my brain is just hurtin for some kind of relief but i have not given in. I just considered taking very small amounts to help out a little. Not everyone is fortunate enough to continue on suboxone until completely tapered. I personally was saved by suboxone in the sense that i no longer crave wanting to get high off opiates in any kind of way, and wanting to get the vics for release was no kind of excuse to start back up. Many drs. dont inform you on how harsh these sub w/d actually are and how long they last. I guess i will just tough it out, I have been taking benzo's to sleep at nite tho (please dont judge me on that) but i have a job, go to school, and have a child. there is no possible way of not gettin any sleep. I just hope i dont w/d off benzo's when this is done. Any comments back would be great, and thanx for keepin me in your prayers ape!


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 13, 2010 10:18 am 
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Hang in there.

It sounds like you have a full plate with work, school and a child. I think you are doing very well under the circumstances. Please consider talking with family, [if you have any locally] and friends to get some help and support... especially with your child.

Your Dr is either like a bunch of others who really doesn't understand the severity of the subs WD process [dropping off above 1mg] or else he hoped to help you with the psych/mental part by discounting the truth. You are at the right place for info now!

If you can't take it anymore ... ask for one final script and start off by taking 1mg and do a slow taper from there.

Minimal dose benzo's are ok for a brief period during final wd's. Be very careful though because [as I'm sure you know] they are addicting too.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 13, 2010 11:15 am 
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Im going to sympathize with you on the taking the vicodin thing, as I am going through it with you right now. Ive considered doing the same. My rationale being "its easier to come off the pills than it is the subs". Regardless, your swiming in dangerous waters if you do it. I know it would give some relief though.
Just wanted to tell you that I understand.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 13, 2010 12:20 pm 
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its day 9 and i decided to man up and not take any kind of pain killer for relief. I woke up this morning feeling a lil better which made me overall feel alot better. this is very hard still tho i will not lie. I have family and friends for support so it helps alot. I use my son as my motivation to stay clean and get life back on track. I have though been taking the benzo's every nite (9 nites) and some during the day, no more then 4mg total for that day/nite, im scared i may w/d from those next, as my knowledge of benzos is very limited. will i be safe from benzo w/d? thanks for everyones input, this site is amazing!


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 13, 2010 12:32 pm 
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Thank God I have no personal experience with this, but a wise person once said " detox from opiates is hell, but detox from benzos makes you wish you had been dropped off in hell". Doesnt sound fun.
If I were you I would switch to benadryl and start tapering the benzos NOW. Try melatonin too.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 13, 2010 1:25 pm 
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You are really in a very scary, vulnerable and shitty situation here. I hope you know that the physical withdrawals that you are feeling are going to get better and eventually go away. The true challenge you are going to have is with the underlying addiction. While hydrocodone may not have been your DOC in the past, it could very well turn into it in a blink of the eye - especially while you are in withdrawals. That is how addiction works. It is also the addiction that worries myself and other readers here about the benzo use. You could very well find yourself switching your DOC to benzos with what you are going through now.

I have no idea if you were ready to taper off of the subs or not but it certainly seems like you may not be ready. Certainly stopping from 2 mg is part of the overall problem here. It's always much better to get down to 0.5 at a minimum and lower using the liquid taper method if possible. Obviously, it's a bit late for that now.

I really do think there is good news in that you should start feeling better and better with each day since you are already past a week since your last dose. The real challenge is going to be with relapse along with not switching your addiction over to anything else, whether that is benzos, alcohol, gambling, ANYTHING. It is so sad how many people are in the situation that you are in with the cost of treatment flat out breaking you. I have been wondering for a while now how much cost, poor management, poor care providers, etc. all contribute to the 90% relapse rate that we all read about. It's bad enough when relapse occurs when everything is going well with treatment, it's even worse when $$$ or other things are the cause of the relapse.

Keep hanging in there and don't give into the temptation to fool yourself into thinking that Vicodin will help you out here. That honestly is just the addict talking. I know it may not seem that way now but you'll look back on this a couple of weeks from now and be so glad you didn't let the addict in you win.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 13, 2010 3:55 pm 
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Donh, thanks for the boost of confidence, it is a character defect that Im working on...LOL

It really sounds like you have it together and I hope you can continue on the same path that you are taking. It seems that you have alot on your plate and withdrawals cannot be helping AT ALL! Donh has said about all I can say, I just wanted to give my experience with withdrawal from benzo's. I wasn't on a high dose and I didn't take them long but the withdrawals were in a class all by itself. I have been through years of opiate withdrawal off and on but I don't wish benzo withdrawal on my worse enemy. My nerves were shot, noises caused me to jump, I felt almost like I had water in my head (sounds insane) but that is the only way I know to describe it. I felt like my judgement was way off (for instance driving was out of the question) my body didn't seem to work with my mind. It was the worst experience I had ever been through!
Be careful when coming off the benzo's, I know you are just using them to help with the withdrawals from opiates (and Im sure they are helping) Just think you will get through this and look back and be amazed that you got through this!!! I have thought of you daily wondering how you are, thank you for taking the time to explain your situation. God Bless And Know you have someone who cares and is praying for you!!!!


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 13, 2010 4:21 pm 
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collinsec wrote:
its day 9 and i decided to man up and not take any kind of pain killer for relief. I woke up this morning feeling a lil better which made me overall feel alot better.

Thats awesome - it sounds like you've made it over that hump and you're on your way out. If you don't mind sharing, how did you schedule your tapering off? Was it uncomfortable every time you cut your dose? I just started @ 8mg per day which works great but I want to have a plan or at least an idea of whats next.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 13, 2010 5:21 pm 
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DonH and Ape, you two both have very good advice and imput. The cost of treatment(in my area anyway) is completley outrageous! I forget the exact amount but it was around $200 every month to get my script from dr. and get filled. not to mention $2000 to enter the outpatient program. I finished the outpatient program but continued to see my subox dr. because he said I should have stayed out atleast 6months and the outpatient program was only 3mnths. anyway, I started at 16mg daily and was very easy to jump to 8mg within 2mnths. Another 2mnths later I jumped to 4mg which was also no big deal. Over the next two months i dropped myself to 2mg. I started feeling shitty but eventually adjusted to that mg and stayed that way until my script ran out. When it was time to go back to dr. I was broke! I spent all my money on x-mas but was ready to get off subs and didnt think i would hurt too bad coming off at 2mg. My piece of shit dr. told me that 3days of pain and it would all be gone. What a lie! He was always a prick throughout the treatment anyway, didnt really show any sympathy. But anyway I had 20, 1mg xanax, and 14, 0.5 klonopins. I used up the xanax during the first five days and now i am working on finishing the klonopins them im DONE with benzos. I never used them prior to sub w/d but i knew they would get me to sleep through this misery. I have no intentions on gettin on them when this is over, but i hope i dont feel benzo w/d just from those pills in this time, do you think I will be safe?


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 13, 2010 5:57 pm 
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I know your question isnt directed at me, but I can give you what insight I have since Im the one online.
I used .5 klonopin (prescribed) to come off vicodin one time. I was petrified of becoming dependant on it (and I say dependent instead of addicted because I got no pleasure from taking them, unlike the opiates), but used them sparingly. I got off as quick as I could, and switched to benadryl and melatonin. Had no withdrawals. I think I used them for like a week or something.
However, another time, I used xanex during detox for like 6 days and afterwards had mild withdrawals. I wasnt taking alot by any stretch, but I had heart palpaltations, anxiety, etc. Still, it was fairly mild.

I have some questions for you as well. How functioning have you been since starting your detox? I mean are you capable of doing things? I was on subs for 1 month, at 8mg and jumped to nothing. I thought that since I wasnt on them long I would be ok. WRONG, but hopefully my short duration of use will work in my favor.
I went two weeks with nothing, then finally yesterday I took about .5mg (have to make it till the 20th for childcare reasons). I can tell you this, my withdrawals were making me LITERALLY unable to function and care for my kids. I have no idea what to expect now though, since its been two weeks and I just took that .5. I dont know what to do or what to expect. Im wondering if the 8mg I was taking will be out of my system by next week. Any thoughts would be great, as I havent had a ton of responses on my own thread. Sorry to bust in on yours.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 13, 2010 6:08 pm 
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PUELLAPEA wrote:
I know your question isnt directed at me, but I can give you what insight I have since Im the one online.
I used .5 klonopin (prescribed) to come off vicodin one time. I was petrified of becoming dependant on it (and I say dependent instead of addicted because I got no pleasure from taking them, unlike the opiates), but used them sparingly. I got off as quick as I could, and switched to benadryl and melatonin. Had no withdrawals. I think I used them for like a week or something.
However, another time, I used xanex during detox for like 6 days and afterwards had mild withdrawals. I wasnt taking alot by any stretch, but I had heart palpaltations, anxiety, etc. Still, it was fairly mild.

I have some questions for you as well. How functioning have you been since starting your detox? I mean are you capable of doing things? I was on subs for 1 month, at 8mg and jumped to nothing. I thought that since I wasnt on them long I would be ok. WRONG, but hopefully my short duration of use will work in my favor.
I went two weeks with nothing, then finally yesterday I took about .5mg (have to make it till the 20th for childcare reasons). I can tell you this, my withdrawals were making me LITERALLY unable to function and care for my kids. I have no idea what to expect now though, since its been two weeks and I just took that .5. I dont know what to do or what to expect. Im wondering if the 8mg I was taking will be out of my system by next week. Any thoughts would be great, as I havent had a ton of responses on my own thread. Sorry to bust in on yours.





You dont have to aplogize by any means, and thank you for the advice on the benzo's ( i have no pleasure for them either) but like your situation, I have a child , job, and school. I have not missed a nite of sleep yet, and this is day 9! alot of ppl are against using the benzos because they know how us addicts are. Fortunately for me, the whole treatment process helped me realize NEVER to get hooked on anything again. 8mgs is a hard place to start, i feel for you. I jumped at 2mg and have already missed 3 days of work because my job is on my feet all day. I use alot of those 5hr energy shots to get me atlease out of bed, then i take alot of vitamins, drink alot of water, vitamin water. I wasnt able to function enough to take care of my son day 1-5, but 6-8 , his mom had to do all the work and it made me feel shitty, even more motivated to get clean. It has such a half life but 8mgs should be gone by 3-4 days im guessing. what i have realized today though is that 50% of this suboxone w/d is mental and you need something to take your mind off it, i know its hard when you have no energy. I literally forced my ass in the gym yesterday and excercised for 30min. maybe thats why im feeling better today some. I heard excercising helps. but you are not alone and im sorry you have to make it to the 20th till the childcare gets situated. I wish i had more advice for you but i was only on subs 6mnths so my knowledge is limited.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2010 12:15 am 
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colinsec-

Glad you are holding on. I recently posted about my experience with stopping my Cymbalta use. It was three weeks of hell, and I never would have guessed it would have been that awful coming off an antidepressant, that crap should have a HUGE warning label on it.
What are your symptoms, would you mind listing them? I am interested in what has been the most difficult for you to manage. With my situation, I felt like a truck ran over my body a few times, the body aches were close to unbearable.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2010 1:33 am 
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shelwoy wrote:
colinsec-

Glad you are holding on. I recently posted about my experience with stopping my Cymbalta use. It was three weeks of hell, and I never would have guessed it would have been that awful coming off an antidepressant, that crap should have a HUGE warning label on it.
What are your symptoms, would you mind listing them? I am interested in what has been the most difficult for you to manage. With my situation, I felt like a truck ran over my body a few times, the body aches were close to unbearable.


Wow I didnt kno antidepressant would do that! Sounds horrible. My symptoms are : extreme fatigue, anxiety, restless leg, stomach cramps, legs and back hurt(but not unbearable by any means),Depression,no appetite. Days 5-9 have been the worst. I was able to go to work today tho, even though it was miserable. But it gets better daily


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