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 Post subject: Re: Depression
PostPosted: Mon Nov 07, 2011 8:15 pm 
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laddertipper wrote:
I've found getting off Sub to be a very emotional and difficult experience. I was kinda zoned out during my years on Sub. In fact, much of it I simply don't remember. Now, it's like, "Who am I? What do I want? What do I like? What do I want to fill my time with? What is my friggin' purpose!" All this stuff is totally overwhelming and it's all coming at me since I got low on and stopped Sub. One day at a time, man. We have to figure out how to fill our days up with stuff we will be proud of. I don't believe any pill will fix my battles with this. I think it's gonna take a lot of fight and hard work to get used to this new way of feeling. I think it will gradually get better and feel more normal for us, but it's going to take a little while, so we have to only focus on the day at hand. I am very good at faking it to. I think that's a survival skill we learn early on.

((HUGS))
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Laddertipper, I couldn't have said it any better myself. That's exactly how I feel: like there's nowhere to hide anymore. I'm on about day 50 and was doing so much better until something in my head just clicked and shot me straight to a nosedive. I thought that talking to my therapist/psychiatrist would help, but I couldn't even find the words to describe this great malady. I can only describe it as utter despair. But my main problem with that is not knowing what's reality and what's withdrawal. This past week has found me hardly able to get out of my bed in the mornings, and I haven't been to the gym in well over a week and a half. When I really think about it (and this is a point my therapist brought up), I haven't been this sober in well over 10 years. I have had something to help me "cope" for so long now, including my five years on Suboxone, that I'm just kind of dangling out there in the breeze. Explaining it doesn't really help people understand the void that stopping Suboxone has placed in my life. It really is quite a force to be reckoned with. I can't even bring myself to bathe every day anymore. Exercise only seems to make things worse, which haunts me because I usually go to the gym five days a week. I'm just...sad: utterly and completely sad, and I also, like you, look back on my years on Suboxone and can't think of a single great decision I made or emotional milestone I conquered during that time. Suboxone really did leave me numb as well. I'm just counting on day 90 bringing brighter days at this point. I have my heart set on that, which may be bad, but from everything I've read it can take 1 to 3 months to feel somewhat "normal" again. Thanks for your post.


--Juan


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 Post subject: Re: Depression
PostPosted: Mon Nov 07, 2011 10:16 pm 
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jcb1981 wrote:
laddertipper wrote:
I've found getting off Sub to be a very emotional and difficult experience. I was kinda zoned out during my years on Sub. In fact, much of it I simply don't remember. Now, it's like, "Who am I? What do I want? What do I like? What do I want to fill my time with? What is my friggin' purpose!" All this stuff is totally overwhelming and it's all coming at me since I got low on and stopped Sub. One day at a time, man. We have to figure out how to fill our days up with stuff we will be proud of. I don't believe any pill will fix my battles with this. I think it's gonna take a lot of fight and hard work to get used to this new way of feeling. I think it will gradually get better and feel more normal for us, but it's going to take a little while, so we have to only focus on the day at hand. I am very good at faking it to. I think that's a survival skill we learn early on.

((HUGS))
laddertipper


Laddertipper, I couldn't have said it any better myself. That's exactly how I feel: like there's nowhere to hide anymore. I'm on about day 50 and was doing so much better until something in my head just clicked and shot me straight to a nosedive. I thought that talking to my therapist/psychiatrist would help, but I couldn't even find the words to describe this great malady. I can only describe it as utter despair. But my main problem with that is not knowing what's reality and what's withdrawal. This past week has found me hardly able to get out of my bed in the mornings, and I haven't been to the gym in well over a week and a half. When I really think about it (and this is a point my therapist brought up), I haven't been this sober in well over 10 years. I have had something to help me "cope" for so long now, including my five years on Suboxone, that I'm just kind of dangling out there in the breeze. Explaining it doesn't really help people understand the void that stopping Suboxone has placed in my life. It really is quite a force to be reckoned with. I can't even bring myself to bathe every day anymore. Exercise only seems to make things worse, which haunts me because I usually go to the gym five days a week. I'm just...sad: utterly and completely sad, and I also, like you, look back on my years on Suboxone and can't think of a single great decision I made or emotional milestone I conquered during that time. Suboxone really did leave me numb as well. I'm just counting on day 90 bringing brighter days at this point. I have my heart set on that, which may be bad, but from everything I've read it can take 1 to 3 months to feel somewhat "normal" again. Thanks for your post.


--Juan


The worrying thing for me seems the depression which many people say never ends...They all say long term bup has done something to the brain that producing endorphins to counter attack depression is next to impossible...I honestly have yet to see anyboddy get off from long term bup and claim their extreme sadness & depression dissapeared..Some even have said your better off on sub for life because depression will always be there badly...I would hate to live the life you are now Juan with what being depressed all day and night which many have said it will most probably be with you forever..That long term sub use has damaged the brain to the extent of feeling depressed for years and years...But by staying on sub its just as same because bup builds in your body and mind. You get more unmotivated, bored and disinterested...Any medication you take for years and daily too your obviously going to feel in a fog and bored, even depressed too..So being on bup for couple of years and off it can be more or less the same sadness..

P.S your the first to say excercise makes things worst..I find that weird and strange...Excercise releases your endorphins so thus you should feel better...But people do say vigerous excercise is the trick, something like running 5-6 miles daily and cardio, and/or regular sports because couple of hours in the gym wont do it I heard...I think it's easier for those folks who excercised vigerously before sub and while they were on it because I've been told it speeds recovery and makes detox that much bearable...But yeah am worried about 4-5-6 year sub use too and how some claim depression will last for several years if not all your life...I just can't find many long term sub users for over 4 years stay clean or claim their depression ever lifted...I hope being on sub for 5 years and over was not in a way a depression sentence...Someone over another forum even prepared for suicide from post-bup depression and he was 5 months away from sub and only it for 2 years, he did a slow wean too andjumped from 0.25..He tried all sorts of meds yet nothing worked for him..Man he says depression was sooo extreme he genunnely tried to commit suicide..I think he's bad on suboxone now and still feels sad because he says being on sub takes away your motivation, soberiety and zest for life...Man I wish I could be more positive but am just going bu other peoples true/real experiences...Sub is a new opiod and only recently people are coming off it after long-term use so thus nobdy knows long term implications and side-affects of sub...I feel for you man I dont know what to say...Am looking into Ibogaine but even that I hear people get badly depressed post-Iboga because it takes a lot out your brain...Man we are in a no win situation sometimes...


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 Post subject: Re: Depression
PostPosted: Mon Nov 07, 2011 10:40 pm 
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By the way JCB1981 how long did it take you to wean down to 0.5/0.25?...Sometimes I hear its also important how you reached a low dose & how long you took to reach your lowest dose then just simply jumping off a low dose..Basically depends the time you took getting to your lowest dose can determine recovery time and intensity/duration of withdrawals/paws, so I hear.. Did you do a fast wean to 0.25? am going to take 3-4 months from 0.8 to 0 and this includes skipping days i.e every other day for couple of weeks. Every 2 days for a couple of weeks and every 3rd day for 3 or so weeks, so I can wind down the half life much as possible and let my receptors get use to less and less sub..Also to get use to some minor withdrawals and clearity so when I do jump hopefully it wont be a long drawn out process and my receptors wont be in so much of a shock in having no bup.....Do you remember rougly how long you took to go from 1mg to 0? was it a month? did you skip days?..


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 08, 2011 12:43 pm 
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Hey JCB1981 and Redemption,

I wanted to let JCB know how my heart goes out to him, PAWS and the depression that can come with it can be horrendous. The depression I suffered during my PAWS was not as strong as JCB's, but it was certainly present and I just never gave up hope that I would get better. Eventually, it got a LOT better.

I understand what Redemption is saying when he/she states that they have heard of very few whose depression completely goes away once opiates are discontinued. I remember hearing the same thing. A quick re-cap of my drug abuse is probably necessary to illustrate my position. I started smoking weed at age 17, did that everyday for 8 years until I got on cocaine, I did cocaine most every day for the next 4 years. Next drug was pain killers, I abused the hell out of pain killers for 10 years then I got on Suboxone and stayed on it for 3 years. I currently have almost 1.5 years off of Suboxone/all drugs and it wasn't until I really started working at my recovery that I truly started getting better. About two months or so ago, I started lifting weights and I push myself to the absolute limits and it was like the final straw in breaking my depression or lack of motivation. For all intents and purposes, I am depression free today.

Drug abuse damages/alters the brain. The damage can be repaired, but it takes time and work. It reminds me of my injuries I suffered when I crushed my ankles and broke my legs. My ankles and legs didn't get better all by themselves, it took incredible amounts of physical therapy and constant attention to get those suckers back to working properly. I basically went to "recovery" for my physical injuries and we MUST do the same for our "brain injuries."

Laddertipper brought up some excellent points. She wrote, "I've found getting off Sub to be a very emotional and difficult experience. I was kinda zoned out during my years on Sub. In fact, much of it I simply don't remember. Now, it's like, "Who am I? What do I want? What do I like? What do I want to fill my time with? What is my friggin' purpose!" All this stuff is totally overwhelming and it's all coming at me since I got low on and stopped Sub."

I had to re-learn how to live life. Believe me, it's a bitch when you're as stubborn as me. I had to re-learn a shitload of life's lessons that I had completely missed because I was stoned my entire adult life. I had to find HEALTHY things to fill my time (I'm still working on that one, I found plenty of unhealthy crap to do, but it hurt me and my recovery), I'm still learning who I am and what I like, etc.

I guess my point is, once I got into recovery and started actively rehabilitating my brain and my behaviors in a healthy way, things have improved significantly. Just sitting around waiting to get better isn't the answer, it wasn't for me anyway.

I'm at a point in my recovery that I NEVER thought I would see again......I'm actually happy and I enjoy getting up in the morning and participating in life. Am I all the way healed?? Hell no, but I ain't giving up. I refuse to give up, I've worked too frickin' hard to get to where I am right now to give up!!

A final thought, JCB, you may need medication to control your depression and if you do that's completely fine, but I'd still advise you to really work your recovery.

_________________
Be kind to yourself. Our character defects do NOT define who we are!


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 Post subject: Re: Redemption's Posts
PostPosted: Tue Nov 08, 2011 1:18 pm 
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Redemption, I can honestly say that my heart sank when I read the first of your two posts. Everything I've read specifically states that Suboxone has no long-term effects on the brain after use is discontinued. My psychiatrist himself has stated such, but he did say that he had heard these rumors about long-term effects on the brain, but that the medical community generally has discredited the rumors. I would assume that some clinical studies have been done (while not many) concerning the validity of doctors' conclusions about the brain after buprenorphine. According to an article by The SMR Committee in London, who organizes conferences on behalf of the Society for Medicines Research, which I found here, buprenorphine was discovered in 1966, stating:
Quote:
Discovered in 1966,
buprenorphine was developed as a
potent analgesic of the morphine class
in 1978, from which time effort
focused on buprenorphine’s potential
as a new indication for addiction treatment.

I quoted that portion of the article just to display the fact that buprenorphine really isn't all that new. While oxycodone was discovered in 1916, I suppose you could say that buprenorphine is a new-er drug but not really hot off the presses. Its combination with naloxone, forming Suboxone, is a newer idea, but when taken properly, I'm pretty sure that only the buprenorphine is absorbed by your body (I could be partially wrong on that), thus not making the concept really all that brand-new.

Look, it is my natural inclination to want to discredit your post as much as possible because the reality you propose is horrifyingly real to me. My obsession is that this is the way life is and that I just didn't realize it before. But I can't say with certainty that what you're telling me about the never-ending depression isn't true. In fact, it makes me want to pick up the phone to call my doctor and tell him that I give up, but for some reason I'm not giving up.

The most discouraging factor about this whole process is that it doesn't necessarily get better from day to day. One day may bring remnants of myself that inspire me to believe that this is beatable but other days bring a hollowness that nothing can fill. Before this I was a consistent gym-goer (five days a week for years), but I find now that exercise of any kind leaves me feeling fatigued and to the point of tears.

As far as my tapering schedule is concerned, I tapered from about 8 to 10 milligrams a day down to 0.25 milligrams over the course of one year. For four weeks I cut down to 0.5 milligrams a day and then for two more weeks I took 0.25 milligrams a day. I then made the jump after that final two weeks. I talked with my doctor about the skipping a few days method of jumping but it seemed to me that this particular method would simply prolong the experience, and that's not what I wanted. My doctor said, "It's a matter of ripping off the band-aid or going slowly," and I chose to rip off the band-aid. One thing that did seem to help me VERY much was taking clonidine throughout the withdrawal process. I'm actually still taking it, as the doc suggests that it can help with my anxiety. I've made the jump before (years ago), unsuccessfuly, and there's no comparison to where I am mentally at this point and to what extent the clonidine has helped me do this. Without the combination of willpower and help from my doctor, I couldn't do this.

I have a goal: 90 days. I will reach 90 days free of Suboxone, and at that point, if I don't feel any better, I will reassess my decision, but until then, I'm sticking to it.

Thanks for your honesty, even if it was hard to read.


--Juan


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 08, 2011 3:31 pm 
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Juan..I know Buprenorphine has been on the Market for many decades but am merely referring to people who have taken it for several years and on doses higher then 0.2mgs..I don't believe there were too many people on long term sub and on high doses before 10 years ago. I think its only recently in the last decade or so people have been on long term Subutex/Suboxone and coming off it too, and in my research I have not found any concerete studies about long term bup use and its implications if any..Doctors at the end of the day dont take bup, the makers don't take bup and thus dont know how it feels and the long term affects, thats what am referring too..When bup came out it was used for pain if am correct and that was Temgesic 0.2 and even then it wasnt for the long term, well from what I have seen and heard so far...I wish I could be more positive but I myself have not gotten off bup yet but am merely going by other peoples experiences..

Someone said if people are in withdrawals for 1 or 2 months after jumping off a dose like 0.5 then imagine if they tapered from 0.5 for a month or 2 and skipped for another month? that it will minimize the acutre withdrawlas and its duration as much as possible..So your saying JCB1981 that you took roughly over 1 month to go from 1mg to 0? or/and that you never skipped days at 0.25? do you think if you had done a skip process for couple of months when at 0.25 or even 0.4 then you would not be feeling so bad now? I think its logical if one takes their lowest dose every other day for couple of weeks then every 3rd day for couple of weeks and then every 4th day for couple of weeks then their duration and intesnity will significantly will be lessened...Think about it if people are taking couple of months to even feel semi-functional from jumping off 0.4 then tapering from 0.4 and doing a skip process for couple of months can actually mean they will semi decent quickly?..Tapering kills withdrawals doesn't it?.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 08, 2011 3:32 pm 
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I also have heard on numerous occasions that having minor withdrawals while your tapering speacially at the lower doses its only benficial in the long run..It means the bup is leaving your system and your receptors are getting use to taking in less bup so when you eventually jump it won't be so much of a shock to your receptors and bodies. Taking a dose such as 0.2 is jus enough to function while your in minor withdrawals and those withdrawals are from bup and its half lives. I think it's better to go through couple of months of minor withdrawals then go through little extreme lingering withdrawals for 3 or 4 months, and that happens when folks usually taper too quick to a low dose or/and jump off a dose such as 0.4. End of the day going through some withdrawals when on 0.2 is a good sign isnt it folks? shows your healing and its all coming out of your system so when we do jump you will have eliminated much of bup as possible..

I think one of the reasons why folks suffer for so long post-sub is because they did not give themselves nor their receptors enough time to rid of bup. The longer we have less bup the more our receptors, body and mind get use to some form of reality/normalcy, some clearity and some sobriety..And all this can mean being on a low dose and skipping days for 3-4 months..Thats the way I say it for us long term sub users..When we were on sub for a long time we were in a fog right? because all the half lives added up and stacked in our system and this didn't happen over night did it? it took time, so obviously our body and receptors need time healing and getting rid of that fog, and that logically means a long slow taper where skipping is vital for couple of months...Am no Doctor but thats what I can only think of...Because Juam like you it also gets me shocked and depressed hearing of long term depression from long term sub use, so am looking for ways to minimize this and work around it...I also dont want to believe it but we have to be realistic and not be indenial about it...


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 Post subject: Re: Redemption's Posts
PostPosted: Tue Nov 08, 2011 3:36 pm 
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I think perhaps JCB1981/Juan if you had taken around 2 months from 0.8 to 0.2 and did a skip process for couple of months then you may have not even needed the Clondine/Catapress, you may not even be depressed as much, do you agree?..Perhaps vigerous excercise for couple four 3-4 hours everyday with an odd rest day is what is needed..Do you think the clonidine could be contributing to some discomfort your having now? they do say its always best to detox from sub using nothing, well not for the long-term anyway...Many have also said our personalities come into play too, some people who are really shy for example tend to suffer longer then others when detoxing from sub.

I have also read people claim naturally bitter and jelous people tend to also suffer long too aswell as folks with horrible personality, even being insecure makes it seems like a long depression detox, thats what many have said and I suppose mentallity/personality does come into play here. For example a guy said since he's got a lovely girlfriend and is attractive himself he feels he can conquer anything because hes confident, hes slim, tallish and gets female attentionsso claims he did not have it so long and rough when he detoxed from sub, perhaps this does have some impact when it comes to withdrawals and PAWS? I dont know..But I do understand if your a confident person with no stressors of life or even yourselves whether you find your self attraction or not can have some influence in how we recover and how long....So many things play here too.. Also age, our pshycal shape (its been said slimmer you are the healthier you are) opiate history and whether folks were depressed before sub or not...


Sorry to ask again Juan/JCB1981 but are you saying you only did a month's worth of a low dose taper from 1mg or you only stayed on 0.25 for couple of weeks?


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 08, 2011 4:57 pm 
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I just wanted to chime in because I ve been through something similar to what you re going through Juan. I was on subs for 14 months. I was only on 1.5mg and tapered from 1mg down to .25 over 3-4 months and even skipped days at the end. I am now 4 and 1/2 months out and finally starting to get over the hump. I have been horribly depressed, anxious, crazy social anxiety, and definitely suicidal because when you are in it this feels like its never going to end. I felt like I ruined myself for good but the thought of going back on suboxone just to stay sane IMHO would not be much better than suicide so my only option has been to grind it out. I am finally feeling like myself, getting some energy back, although not 100% its a hell of a lot better than the 30-40% I have had the majority of the time. I too am extremely active. I surf 3-5 days a week and run when I can. I had to force myself to do it most of the time, and there were def weeks where I would barely exercise at all. I can relate to exercise not working for you too because it would literally wipe me out for 3 days after. Your body doesn't recover nearly as quick and I found the soreness along with the aches of W/D made me flat out miserable. Granted I wasn't on subs as long as you, but it does get better eventually. 90 days is a great goal, but don't be bummed if you aren't feeling like you hope to by then. Just keep your expectations in check. I should also mention I started an anti-depressant about a week ago and it has already helped immensely. I was still pretty depressed up to that point and didn't want anything to do with any kind of medication, but I would highly advocate using one for 6 months or so to get you through this if you aren't already on one.

No offense Redemption but I call bullshit on the whole confidence thing you talk about. I don't care how much confidence you have this shit will break you down to a shell of the person you were. No matter how low/long you taper I think it is going to be very hard to escape the PAWS. Don't be too hard on yourself Juan. Enjoy the good days and grind out the miserable ones. Progress is slow, but it does come. Just know the person you feel like now isn't really you and the real you will come back.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 08, 2011 5:41 pm 
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I am sorry you are having a difficult time. I wanted to add that we have/had members that were on sub for a long time that are doing just fine. People with bad experiences tend to be the loudest. A lot of other forums are full of negative people with negative experiences. Also people that jumped off sub and are feeling good and doing great for the most part do not seek out support forums. Just read thru our stopping sub and bupe in the rear view mirror sections and you will see that they are not all horror stories. Don't get discouraged and I wish for you all the happiness in the world!


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 Post subject: Re: Redemption's Posts
PostPosted: Tue Nov 08, 2011 6:52 pm 
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Redemption wrote:
I think perhaps JCB1981/Juan if you had taken around 2 months from 0.8 to 0.2 and did a skip process for couple of months then you may have not even needed the Clondine/Catapress, you may not even be depressed as much, do you agree?


No, I don't agree at all, considering this is my second jump, one with clonidine and one without.

Redemption wrote:
Perhaps vigerous excercise for couple four 3-4 hours everyday with an odd rest day is what is needed..Do you think the clonidine could be contributing to some discomfort your having now?


I've already stated what vigorous exercise makes me feel like right now, and I used to go to the gym five days a week, so I'm certain that it wouldn't make me feel better (at this point). No, I don't think clonidine has anything to do with what I'm feeling now. In fact, I went off the clonidine about four weeks ago and since my recent decline this past week I have gone back on it and feel better already. Also, I have a lot of hyperactivity, and clonidine, in conjunction with my other medication for ADHD, helps me to focus.

Redemption wrote:
they do say its always best to detox from sub using nothing


Who says that? Clonidine is known to improve opiate withdrawal symptoms.

I can see how personality could come into play, considering that most of this is mind over matter at this point in the game.

Redemption wrote:
Sorry to ask again Juan/JCB1981 but are you saying you only did a month's worth of a low dose taper from 1mg or you only stayed on 0.25 for couple of weeks?


No, I said that I tapered gradually over the course of an entire year. I don't remember the exact tapering schedule I used. I know I was on 0.5 milligrams a day for an entire month before I cut down to 0.25 for a two-week period, after which my doctor gave me the option to either make the jump or skip days. I have an extremely caring doctor who is highly esteemed in the field of addiction, and once he told me that one option was like pulling off a band-aid quickly and the other a more drawn-out process, I chose to rip the band-aid off.

We're all desperate for answers as to either how long withdrawal will last and/or how bad it will be. And it seems like you've read a lot of different material from a lot of different sources, but one thing you haven't done is even quit taking Suboxone yet, so be open-minded about the ways in which other people have chosen to make the jump. While I'm having some emotional turmoil right now, I still never expected it to be as easy as it has been to be sitting here writing this with 55 days sobriety from Suboxone under my belt.

I appreciate everything you've taken the time to write.


--Juan


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 08, 2011 7:02 pm 
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Breezy_Ann wrote:
Don't get discouraged and I wish for you all the happiness in the world!


Hey, thanks, Breezy_Ann! That is much appreciated. And you're right: I need to delve deeper into this forum and really read some prior posts about people's experiences. It's just that I am the type of person who is susceptible to take things to heart very easily, so I've been apprehensive about reading prior posts for that reason. I haven't wanted to read too much negative material about this process so as not to jeopardize my own progress. But now that I think about it I think it would be a good idea to delve into the archives, so to speak. :-)


--Juan


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 08, 2011 7:06 pm 
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Rmac04 wrote:
No offense Redemption but I call bullshit on the whole confidence thing you talk about. I don't care how much confidence you have this shit will break you down to a shell of the person you were. No matter how low/long you taper I think it is going to be very hard to escape the PAWS.


Yeah, I call bullshit, too.

Rmac04 wrote:
Don't be too hard on yourself Juan. Enjoy the good days and grind out the miserable ones. Progress is slow, but it does come. Just know the person you feel like now isn't really you and the real you will come back.


Hey, thanks! I will have to chant that to myself whenever I feel my lowest: "Just know the person you feel like now isn't really you and the real you will come back." I really do believe that, too, for the most part; but there is always this lingering fear that this is as good as it gets. I think it's only human to feel that way.


--Juan


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2011 6:59 pm 
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I wrote a long post and it got deleted, but this is probably better anyhow:

I just want to comment on the exercising aspect of recovery. I can relate to A LOT of things which you've said in this thread and go off on tangents for pages and pages; I'm sure a lot of us could. But to focus on one thing I just want to tell you I know exactly how you feel about exercising and it's impact on recovery or speeding up recovery.

When I'm detoxing, particularly during acute withdrawal, I want to retreat, which is what my drug habit taught me. Retreating is the problem. I'd exercise, but I'd lament it. I'd try to eat more nutritiously, but like you said, even feeding the dogs is hard enough as it is. But exercising isn't only a physical activity to get natural endorphins pumping and the brain working as it should again. For instance, instead of running around my neighborhood, full of cookie cutter homes, asphault, no scenary, cement and all that weight and burden on the grass and dirt, I'll run at a forest preserve near my house. At first it's hell, but as I keep going and that quitting feeling begins to kick in, I realize it's a very binary moment, 0's or 1's, one or the other, quit or continue. The beautiful scenary becomes a metaphor for life and I'm literally sufferring and pushing through it. I don't know if it's just the way I think, but once I push through that trying phase and commit to staying with the discomfort of running for a prolonged time, I start to just rummage through the mess of my life. I start seeing and thinking about things in more optimistic ways, more realistic ways. It's difficult to explain. I usually end up running longer than I should have because I usually feel worse afterwards for a good 45-60 minutes. But in a way, psychologically, I usually feel ten times better which lets me push through the physical distress and shows me that I can get through a difficult time where I'm my own enemy demanding submission. And I build upon that. Then after running, after all that work I put myself through, I don't want to eat ice cream, cookies, cheeseburgers, pop or anything with all that fat, sugar and artificial crap in it. It just doesn't feel right. So putting myself through the punishment of exercise forces me to eat healthier. It creates a sort of feedback loop. Eating good makes me want to exercise and vise versa.

And a comment on what you said about how you felt around your friends. It's good to have support, you need that. But you need to deal with a lot of things and that means commiting to a healthy amount of alone time where you CAN cry, scream, pound your fists, or just think and reflect, even greive for the years lost. There is little difference in having lost a loved one and having lost large portions of your life to something that is so close to death it nearly IS death. It may be painful, and erradic emotional bouts aren't a joyride, but it can be a good sign. You're FEELING. Feeling and reacting and dealing with everything that life hands us is NOT easy, which is why we ran to drugs in the first place. It WILL wane as you learn to cope with your feelings, to FEEL them, assimilate them, reflect upon them and then act upon them. If they don't, then as someone above stated, seek professional help. Seek a psychologist out before a psychiatrist and make it clear to them that you don't want to be referred too quickly to a psychiatrist unless ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY. A lot can be solved by talking and time and patience. Let your therapist, if you go that route, know this, that you are willing to be patient and HONEST. Resorting to a pill of ANY kind can result in myriad triggers that should only be an option if you're up against a wall and your depression is winning out over your patience. But coming here and talking is a GOOD sign. People are listening and we all want to help because helping you helps us and we're all in the same boat. I'm 3-4 days into sub w/d myself. I've been here countless times. I know what you suffer and I hope you hang in there and keep making the hard decisions, the right decisions. Look yourself in the mirror and try to find that missing piece, try to remind yourself of what it was that got you here and if you can figure THAT out, well, that's a whole 'nother thread. But that's the trick and it's the hardest thing in the world to do. But it can be done.

When your body and mind say no to the things you KNOW you should do, push through it with EVERYTHING you've got. It is SO easy to say, another thing to do. But it's the only way for you to get to a point where those things become common place, and far easier to do. That's where you begin to live life, not suffer it. I empathize with you and all of you that suffer this pain we've put upon ourselves, but I pity none of you and you shouldn't pity yourselves. Pity is a trap. Empathy is a gentle respite. But pity will pull you away from your struggle and bring you down further than you were to begin with.

Keep everything up and keep posting, talk about it. Think and purge yourself. It really IS a fight for your life. Don't take it lightly and always go down swinging with the intention of getting back up. Face yourself and find everything that's true no matter how painful. Accept yourself and let others accept you, help you and there you should find strength enough to go on another day. Because as cliched as it is, this really is a one day at a time thing. One second at a time at it's worst.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 18, 2011 3:37 pm 
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I felt exactly the same as you jcb except I was still depressed 6 months after my last dose of suboxone. I also tapered similar to you and the withdrawals for me were a long drawn out affair. The one major obstacle for recovery for me was the horrible depression. I never had any sort of depression prior to when I got on the sub train. I too am very concerned about folks going through this horrible depression when they get off the sub train. I was taking sub for 2 1/2 years so I can't imagaine how difficult it is for you after taking it for 5 years. I went back on suboxone 6 months after my last dose of 0.25. I think I will taper more slowly this time but I think us vetrans will have a long ride on the emotional side of things. Another person who went to the same doc as mine wanted to die because the depression was so bad. I always thought I was alone because at meetings people spoke about how its normal for women to get depressed more so then men and how they kept saying the only men who get depressed are unmanly and they need to grow a pair so I believed it was normal for me but now am reading more and more horror stories of never ending depression by both women and men after opiates and more so with suboxone then anything else. I couldnt believe 6 months on I was unmotivated and very low 24/7 and I wasnt on suboxone long as many people either, plus I did a reasonable taper. I dont think anyone can be low all the time for months and months and years. I have read where people feel depressed for years after their last dose of sub. I was never depressed in my youth nor ever had any depression issues, am only 23 for god sake. I got a supportive family and I dont have to worry about anything else so why should I have still felt this depresson or paws whatever you call it for sooooo damn long. I felt so isolated then as I thought I was alone but then I started to lurk around boards and realised I was not the only one to go through this. I too find it hard to look for people who have made it past the paws and depression phase after being on sub for 1, 2 years and over. This scares the hell out of me man. Let us know how you get on dude.


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Fond Du Lac Psychiatry
Dr. Jeffrey Junig, M.D., Ph.D.

  • Board Certified Psychiatrist
  • Asst Clinical Professor, Medical College of Wisconsin

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