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PostPosted: Mon Jul 30, 2012 2:55 pm 
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Hello, I am sure my story is not very uncommon. I am a chronic pain patient who has had 6 back surgeries and a Total Knee Replacement . I moved to a new state where a new pain Doctor tried cutting me down from a high dose of Fentanyl (125mcg/hr every 48 hrs) to 75mcg/hr every 72 hrs. He also changed my Percocet 10 to Lortab 10. It was then that I realized I had such a problem with drugs. I felt the slight sting of withdrawal the next day. I had thought 10-12 vicoden and 4-6 percs a day was fine along with the Patch. Tomorrow I stop taking these all so that I can start the Suboxone on Thursday. I have been told so many different things about when to stop my meds 12hrs, 24hrs, 36hrs, etc. The most recent came from a Doctor who said that actually Fentanyl has a shorter half life than the pills and that 36 hours should be plenty of time to be in full withdrawal. The reason I am here and why I have been reading so many of your post is that I am scared to death of withdrawal. I am an anxiety patient who is also taking Klonipin 1 mg three times daily. Can anybody tell me if they have had a similar experience and what the amount of time was that it took to be in full withdrawal in order to start the Suboxene. I have never posted in any forum before but as I said earlier I am new to this state and really don't have anyone to talk to about this. I know this is something that should not be done alone! Thank you to anyone who can help let me know what I'm in for.':cry:'

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 30, 2012 11:03 pm 
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Welcome!

Inducing on Sub can be a scary process, but bearing a few things in mind you can make the transition as pain free as possible.

The main thing is to make sure you're in moderate withdrawal before inducing. The reason people prefer this over any one time frame is that the time frame varies a lot based on what drugs a person was abusing, how they were taking it etc. ie if a person was taking OxyContin without chewing or snorting the pills, they'll have Oxy in their system a lot longer than a person who was chewing their pills because of the slow-release.

Now in your case, the thing to be wary of is your Fentanyl patch. Your doctor is right to suggest that fentanyl has a much shorter half life. This is true for fentanyl injections or lollipops. However it isn't as relevant for patches, because when a person takes off their patch there is still fentanyl on the skin and in the tissue around the patch site being absorbed into the body. People have in the past induced onto Sub from fentanyl patches believing they could do it quickly because of fentanyl's short half life, and endured precipitated withdrawal because of it. In the case that comes to mind, they only gave themselves 24 hours.

If you stop taking all your meds on the Tuesday morning and get induced on the Thursday, the transition should be okay. I'd suggest when you take off your fentanyl patch you thoroughly clean the patch site straight away. Also doing some light exercise before withdrawal kicks in may help speed up your body excreting its left-over opioids.

Good luck and let us know how you go. Also, if you do experience some mild precipitated withdrawal, understand that it's temporary. Most likely it won't be as painful as the withdrawal you're already experiencing, so all in all taking Sub should provide relief that will improve in the hours after taking it.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 31, 2012 1:42 am 
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Thank you so much for your reply. I will stop tomorrow morning and go with it. I want this to work more than anything. I knew the Fentanyl was going to be my biggest obstacle. I will try to keep in touch and let you know how it goes. No promises. I know when I kicked alcohol 3 years ago the last thing I wanted to do was get on the computer but I can use all the support I can get. Thank you again. :shock:

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 04, 2012 12:57 pm 
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OMG, I never in my wildest dreams thought I could feel that bad. By the time I got to the doctors office I could hardly stand let alone fill out my medical history. Thank God for my mom. Anyways I am at day three of being on a Suboxone tablet a day but because of my pain issues he did not prescribe suboxone for me instead Butrans patch 10mg (which I feel is too low of a dose personally, especially considering the high dose of Fentanyl I was on) which does not really kick in until day three so I was given (bought) three 7mg Suboxone tablet to cut into quarters and take every four hours for those first three days. I must say I feel 100% better except for my back pain which is almost debilitating. He says he may bump me up to 20mg in two weeks. I will not wait that long. I can't I have to be able to take care of my family. Does anybody have any feedback on this patch and how it has worked for them? I am also so fatigued is that normal and will that dissipate?

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 04, 2012 4:30 pm 
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The pain meds have left you in a state of hyperalgesia. That will wane, and your pain levels will become tolerable eventually. Your body is so accustomed to the strong pain meds, that now even insignificant pain will feel much worse. As your tolerance drops and your body adjusts, you will achieve pain relief from the bupe - but not to the degree of the old meds. This is where you come in, and learn to cope with what's left over. You will amaze yourself of what you can tolerate. It will take time.

On a better note, the fatigue can take up to a week to go away after switching to bupe - but your energy levels will rebound pretty quickly. Part of this will be defeating the psychological component though. If you think you're tired and don't try, you'll keep yourself down.

I am also a CPP, moved to subutex voluntarily and about to switch to the Butrans patch myself. With this experience in mind, I am concerned about the abrubt switch to the butrans. I will have had ~45 days on the subutex 2mg before the switch, and think it may have been better for you. I say this because the higher 2mg+ daily dose of bupe is much better at suppressing the dependence on the full agonists. Even though I was not an addict, I was still dependent like any abiding CPP. That said, it was rough for the first week or two in particular thinking that I needed more pain relief (akin to a craving). I have my doubts about the BuTrans providing that relief when you need it most in the beginning stages of the switch.

So -- if you feel that your mind is still playing the craving game with you after you're solely on the patch - you may need to continue on sublingual bupe for a longer period of time. So -- stay positive, and make that suboxone last as long as you can IMO. You're highly at risk, don't catch yourself trivializing that.

From what I gather, the greatest amount of pain relief possible from bupe is equivocal to about 30mg of morphine every 6-8 hrs -- which is inline with the 20mcg butrans patch. Anymore than that (next jump up is the 2mg subutex/suboxone), and the CNS opiate receptors become completely flooded -- which allows for a very quick tolerance to build - and pain relief from bupe itself to be a great deal psychological. It's the low doses (mcg) found in BuTrans that DONT flood the receptors, so that with new receptor activation via bupe, pain relief can be had without the quick tolerance of the higher doses. THAT said, a recovering addict NEEDS those receptors to be flooded to curb craving. THIS is why I think you have a battle ahead, and why at least a month of 2mg+ daily would be beneficial, to help you release the chains that bind you, let your tolerance drop to the levels of the bupe as opposed to the full agonists, and be more prepared to deal with the decrease in pain relief from bupe -- without craving for a full agonist AKA learning to cope with the extra pain. Fortunately, bupe actually decrease hyperalgesia quite quickly, helping your CNS return to a more "normal" state of pain perception.

good luck.


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 04, 2012 4:42 pm 
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Hello Kelly and Welcome to the forum. I am so glad to hear that your induction went well. I am sorry that you are in the amount of pain that you are in. I do think that you need to be on a much higher dose. I was on 16mg until 3 days ago, and up until then (2 months) I wasn't getting adequate pain relief for my back and hip.

I think if you are straight up with your doctor, and perhaps have your PM doc talk to him (you'll have to sign a release), they could work together to get you at a higher dose. My subdoc made one call to my GP and that was all it took for him to raise my dose. Me going in there in tears and begging him to raise my dose wasn't enough. I would go ahead and sign that realease as soon as you possibly can. I didn't have to sign one because they were both VA doctors and have access to all of my records. So, that kind of sped along the process for me.

I am sure you know of all the old age remedies for chronic pain, like hot baths, cold and heat packs, NSAIDS, etc... so I won't bore you with all of those details...If I think of anything that helped me that was not so common, I will definately come back and post it.

Being in pain is something that you have GOT to address with your doctor. I know that being in pain is a HUGE trigger for me to relapse. When my pain goes untreated, I think about using narcotics, and we all know where that will lead. Tell your doctor that being in pain is causing you cravings. He will probably be more likely to raise your dose because of cravings than pain. I dont know why, but thats how some docs seem to be. I'm getting the impression that yours might just be that way too.

Good Luck to you, and let us know how everything works out! And again, WELCOME!

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 04, 2012 4:51 pm 
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Pulpitis wrote:
The pain meds have left you in a state of hyperalgesia. That will wane, and your pain levels will become tolerable eventually. Your body is so accustomed to the strong pain meds, that now even insignificant pain will feel much worse. As your tolerance drops and your body adjusts, you will achieve pain relief from the bupe - but not to the degree of the old meds. This is where you come in, and learn to cope with what's left over. You will amaze yourself of what you can tolerate. It will take time.

On a better note, the fatigue can take up to a week to go away after switching to bupe - but your energy levels will rebound pretty quickly. Part of this will be defeating the psychological component though. If you think you're tired and don't try, you'll keep yourself down.

I am also a CPP, moved to subutex voluntarily and about to switch to the Butrans patch myself. With this experience in mind, I am concerned about the abrubt switch to the butrans. I will have had ~45 days on the subutex 2mg before the switch, and think it may have been better for you. I say this because the higher 2mg+ daily dose of bupe is much better at suppressing the dependence on the full agonists. Even though I was not an addict, I was still dependent like any abiding CPP. That said, it was rough for the first week or two in particular thinking that I needed more pain relief (akin to a craving). I have my doubts about the BuTrans providing that relief when you need it most in the beginning stages of the switch.

So -- if you feel that your mind is still playing the craving game with you after you're solely on the patch - you may need to continue on sublingual bupe for a longer period of time. So -- stay positive, and make that suboxone last as long as you can IMO. You're highly at risk, don't catch yourself trivializing that.

From what I gather, the greatest amount of pain relief possible from bupe is equivocal to about 30mg of morphine every 6-8 hrs -- which is inline with the 20mcg butrans patch. Anymore than that (next jump up is the 2mg subutex/suboxone), and the CNS opiate receptors become completely flooded -- which allows for a very quick tolerance to build - and pain relief from bupe itself to be a great deal psychological. It's the low doses (mcg) found in BuTrans that DONT flood the receptors, so that with new receptor activation via bupe, pain relief can be had without the quick tolerance of the higher doses. THAT said, a recovering addict NEEDS those receptors to be flooded to curb craving. THIS is why I think you have a battle ahead, and why at least a month of 2mg+ daily would be beneficial, to help you release the chains that bind you, let your tolerance drop to the levels of the bupe as opposed to the full agonists, and be more prepared to deal with the decrease in pain relief from bupe -- without craving for a full agonist AKA learning to cope with the extra pain. Fortunately, bupe actually decrease hyperalgesia quite quickly, helping your CNS return to a more "normal" state of pain perception.

good luck.


Apparently you and I were posting a response at the same time!! LOL, GREAT POST!!!! Thanks so much for all this useful information!

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 04, 2012 8:56 pm 
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Kelly-

I believe we were doing just that :-)

No problem! I like to help, and I'd like to think that thanks to my medical/pharmacological/physiological training from Dental school has helped me obtain an interesting understanding of all-things-bupeprenorphine (I'm about to finish my 4.5 years and become a full fledged DDS, finally!). I find myself educating the N.P. at the pain clinic I attend once a month about this amazing drug every time I go in. It's the grass-roots effort of bupe patients that will eventually get medical professionals educated in ways that they are NOT. On the patient side, there is also quite a bit of misconception, and while I'm too busy to be an activist, I like to chime in when I can. Not to say that I'm bupe-omniscient, but my understanding connects all the dots for me.

On that note, while I don't know your story, I couldn't help but notice your response. Specifically, what you said about your own pain issue. At 16mg, you've more than flooded (4x over) your opiate receptors without going any higher than that. If you "feel" as though you are experiencing a greater amount of analgesia from your recently increased dose, then I am not here to tell you otherwise :). That said, I think the effect is psychological. We've been trained to think that a higher dose of our meds will help. & with the full agonists -- they did! But what most of us never were taught, was that our brain's perception of pain had been modified to be more sensitive, and that we had forgotten how to tough anything out. Granted that's not always the case (trauma, new surgery, disease processes at work).

The research tells us that due to bupe's lowly 30% opiate receptor activation, it can only provide about a MAX of 30mg of morphine worth of analgesia - and that max is found to be at the dose of ~ 20mcg - able to achieve those effects at such a low dose thanks to its powerful binding affinity aka attraction to the opiate receptor. & moreover, that's only at every 6-8 hrs. The reason why such a low dose can work at analgesia is because it hasn't flooded the brain, and can actually activate NEW receptors. At 2mg+, the receptors are flooded with bupe molecules that don't let go after any less than 30 hours, with no room for any new opiate receptor activation.

At the end of the day however there may be another component, other than the typical mu-opioid activation to account for a greater sense of analgesia with higher doses of bupe, that we don't yet understand. So, keep doing what works for you, and that goes for everyone/anyone!


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 05, 2012 2:16 pm 
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Yes I made an emergancy call to my Dr and he told me to put on another patch. So I am at 20mg now. He also has called in a script for 2 more Suboxone 8/2 and I will see him again next week. Thank you for all the usefull information. So informative! this forum is really great. I will definatly keep in touch and let you all know how my next visit goes. I know it is in my head and my wires need to gather themselfs up and just deal with it. This is a life change for me and I will try my hardest to keep chin up and go on as strong as I can. Thank you all again. :wink:

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 05, 2012 3:27 pm 
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Hi there, I didn't want to "hijack" the thread that was posted, but I just cant ignore all the information you were giving about the doses of sub and how it works, ie. flooding receptors, etc..

In a nutshell, are you basically saying that I would get better pain relief at 2mg every 6hours, rather than 8mg twice a day, and 4 mg in the evening? If I read that right, I think that's what you're saying. Because after my first 8mg dose, my receptors are basically flooded for the next 30 or so hours. The receptors are unable to be reactivated. So basically if I were to take 1mg and then 1mg, etc... I'd get more effective pain relief! WOW!

Congratualtions on getting your degree!!! I love the dentist. most people dont, but I love getting my teeth cleaned and all that. (I know the hygeinest does that)

This is my dilemma...My cravings are not controlled at those low doses, as I am new to sub. But once my cravings are under control, i will definitely take this avenue for dosing.. Then I can eliminate all the NSAIDS. I only have one kidney, so they are no good for me long term anyway.

Thank you so much for all of your valuable information! It's always good to have a few people with knowledge, good accurate knowledge, on a forum like this! OH, and welcome to the forum!

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 06, 2012 8:22 pm 
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KN4:

Glad to hear all of that! The attitude is a must for sure, and so was the patch increase as well as the extra subs. My advice would be for you to cut the suboxone up into 1/4 or 1/3s and take them no more than twice/day to help control craving considering 2mg is enough to flood your receptors - and you have the patch on top of that. As you now know, your brain WILL re-wire to accept the 20mcg (not mg, btw :) as a legitimate source of pain control. You just need to get beyond the cravings, which may take some time. Keep up the good work, and again - if you find yourself craving, call your doc and tell him just that! And hopefully he can Rx here and there as needed extra suboxone. I find it a little silly that he just doesn't Rx you enough for a solid month. :-/

Kelly:

Great job, you nailed it exactly with your understanding! I couldn't have said it any better!

Folks who aren't on it for pain control, yet PURELY addiction, are able to wean/taper themselves down ALL the time -- so don't be discouraged, you're doing the right thing for now. When you're ready (i'd set yourself a GOAL date in case it's your mind playing tricks on you), start to taper down - and stockpile the rest! I think you'll find tapering VERY easy - as soon as you know in your heart and mind that beyond 4mg every 30 hours, it's all a "waste". Now I say that knowing that doses beyond that do help control craving for those who need it, but you know what I mean!

You'll begin to notice that 8mg won't feel any different than 16mg, and 4mg won't feel any different from 8mg.

Hopefully you can switch to 2mg pills/strips once that time comes to help with more accurate dosing. But yes, ultimately you'll find that 1mg every 6 hours will help more effectively with your pain control. And on top of that, won't it feel good knowing you'd be at such a low dose? That's low enough, that if full agonist pain control was a necessity -- you could quit for 36 hours (w/d free) and be able to have relief (surgery, accident, etc). At the high high dose you're at now, it'd take the better part of a week! And then someday in the future, if BuTrans patch was ever an option for you -- you'd find the 20mcg/hr patch even MORE effective at pain control. But that's a ways away, so just put that one on the shelf for now :)

To reiterate the point we both made, yes - everytime you dose, no less than half of that dose is STUCK on your opiate receptors for 30 hours. And somewhere closer to 2mg but no more than 4mg, every receptor is flooded - leaving room for not a SINGLE opiate receptor to bind to anything. So, dosing 1mg every 6 hours will put you right around that magical 4mg number every 24-30 hrs (considering sleeping thrown in there). That allows for new receptor activation, while also controlling cravings, blocking other opiates, and obviously keeping you far from withdrawal.

THe next step after that (before going to BuTrans) would be .5mg every 6 hours, or a 1/4 of a 2mg pill/strip. That would ensure that the receptors never become 100% flooded so that you'd always have new receptor activation. That would be a 2mg/day dose -- which as you probably know, addicts maintain just find at that and even lower everyday. But the secret for the pain control will be the every 6 hour dosing. It's below the 2mg/day threshold where folks start to notice a little discomfort from w/d and craving --- but my reading tells me thats also from 1x/day dosing, so a person on every 6 hrs could and can go below that (the patch obviously is). However (before I mumble on anymore lol), I'd say that SOMEDAY your goal should be 1mg every 6 hrs, and maybe even .5mg sometime after that.

Now - some will say NOT to go that low, because it makes bupe "act as a full agonist", and that's what we're trying to get away from. Well, that's just not true. A drug is the same drug and has the same properties no matter the dose. It's always a partial agonist. It's just the fact that at those low of doses, it leaves for new receptor activation - which is what you now know allows for the perceivable pain relief.

Im happy to help and tell how at least I see it! :-)

Hope I didn't add any confusion, sometimes I really ramble on!!

Oh, yea -- you are one of the few who likes the Dentist!! But thats awesome, because we're here to help!! A Dentist's goal is to PREVENT problems ultimately. I love what I do, and try my best to make my patient's comfortable, and love to try to befriend each and every one of them. I want it to be a good experiencing, whether they like the dentist or not :)
And you're right, the hygienist usually does so the cleanings in a private office. Since I'm still in school, I do all of my patient's cleanings -- so we all know how to (maybe some dinosaurs have forgotten hehe)... but when Im first starting in an office, I'll still probably be doing my own cleanings for awhile just to make the extra $$! Especially the deep scaling and root planings. Keep up the good work taking care of your teeth :)

-Cale


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 09, 2012 12:50 pm 
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My question is now how to switch from The Butrans patch 20mcg/hr to straight Suboxone. He has given me enough for 20 mg a day, 2 1/2 8mg patches daily. We decided that because the roller coaster effect the patch was having on me was the same as the Fentanyl and that is what led me to pop more pills to begin with, that straight Suboxone would be the best choice. He did not give me any instruction however and here I sit scared to death to just take the patches off and start the strips. I have one more 10 mg patch that would have been scheduled to be put on Saturday (my patches are staggared because I had to call him on the weekend and have him tell me to make it 20 instead if 10) and I wondered if I should finish the patches and then take them off together when the next one is due to be changed next Monday. Then again I thought maybe take off the patches before I go to bed use a strip and go from that the next day. I have called his office somany times in the last week I am embarrased to call and ask for instruction :oops: I know that sounds stupid but it is the way I am. I think years of substance abuse has left me with such a social phobia that just typing in this forum has been difficult. At any rate I need some kind of advice. To finish the patches and just use 1 Suboxone quartered daily or make the abrupt switch now and see what happens. I had asked him if he thought I would have any feeling of withdrawal switching and he said no but in the same breath asked if I had some Clonidine on hand. I do and I hate the side effects of it so hope I wont have to use it.

Mr Dentist you seem to have a great understand of this drug and how it effects the brain perhaps a word of advice.

Thank you all for your help and support again.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 09, 2012 5:47 pm 
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KN4Help, you shouldn't feel silly for cslling your doctor to ask for instruction. I'm sure they would rather you call and get the proper instructions, then wing it and mess up your dose. You can always feel safe here asking questions at any time. I had a ton in the beginning, and as you can tell from pulpitis's response, I had more still....

Cale, Thank you so much for going in to all that detail. I completely understand it, and can't thank you enough. Good luck with the rest of your schooling and again, its so nice to have someone as educated about sub as you, on the forum. We have a few others, and a couple of mods that are pretty knowledgable too. Makes this place even better!!! Good luck in school, and I think you are going to make a great dentist with that personality of yours!!!!!

Take care guys!

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 09, 2012 8:28 pm 
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KN4,

The suboxone strips completely overpower the patches you are wearing. You can go ahead and remove the patch you're wearing now infact, and immediately begin or continue (if you already are) dosing with the strips. You have absolutely nothing to worry about.

Wearing 20mcg worth of patches gives you 1mg of suboxone every 2 days, or 8mg (equal to one of your strips) once every 16 days or 2 weeks. So, one of your new sublingual films is equal to 2 weeks worth of the drug you get by wearing the patch. In another words, one of your suboxone films is 450x stronger than your 20mcg patch.

It's a waste to be wearing the patch any longer.

Good luck.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 09, 2012 8:31 pm 
how u like dem flims KN4?


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 09, 2012 8:49 pm 
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:D The films are fantastic compared to the tablets, :? They disolve so much easier its wonderful. I will then go ahead and take the patches off and take a full strip. He has instructed 1q am and 1 q pm with a 1/2 for the afternoon if I need it. From all the post I have read most people take their full dose first thing in the morning. :?: Not sure why this instruction but Im sure he has his reasons and I see him in two weeks, maybe he will change the sig. Hope this helps with my pain as well. It should if it has the same medication as the patch right? Anyways, so glad I am not on all the old meds and heading in the right direction. 1 1/2 weeks without Fentanyl, Percs and Vics and feeling pretty good. Love it. :D Thank you Mr Dentist. and good luck with your new career. I was a Dental and Oral Surgery assistant for years before my first back surgery.

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IMO the 8mg dose should not exist. It's overkill. IMO it's only purpose is to make full-agonist opiate abuse that much more difficult.

He's having you dose like that to help control cravings, or the physical addiction component. The addict within that will feel more satisfied by taking multiple doses. Dosing multiple times may help with pain control, but is questionable at that high of a dose - meaning its probably no greater pain control than once per day.

As far as 1x/day doing everything that the drug is otherwise supposed to do? you betcha.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2012 3:02 pm 
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I truley agree that I am on a very high dose. I think he has done it this way to control my pain. I have failed back surgery syndrome following a fall I had two years ago the L4-L5 fusion that was done 10 years ago was totaly undun and the pain I felt before the surgery returned completly. :cry: After PT, Injections and Acupuncture they eventually decided on a Spinal Cord Simulator but that only gave my legs pain relief. The medications I was prescribed to cover the back pain was continually upped and upped (Fentanyl 150 mcg/hr every 48hrs and Percs and Vics) and here I am. BTW I am 46 years old. Too young to have all of these problems especially the Total knee replacement but a life of very active sports and motorcycle riding has left my body racked with Osteoarthritis. I had no cartilage left in my knee thus the TKA (Total Knee).

This morning woke up just fine after a night of dreaming about my previous withdrawal symptoms and agony. I was so afraid after removing those two patches yesterday I was going to wake up in that state of complete withdrawal. Much to my surprise after taking my evening dose of Suboxone I woke up feeling fine. In fact even the anxiety that had been present was gone. My feeling is the patches were not enough. Yes Mr Dentist, you were right that the Suboxone by far out weighed the Butrans I was on.

My plan is to make it without that extra half a strip in the afternoon and just use a strip in the morning and one at night for a total of 16/4. I aim to start tapering as soon as I am stabilized but realize this is not going to be anytime soon. It took me years to get to the tolerance level I am at with opiates so I know it will take awhile to undo. It just pisses me off that doctors will just keep giving you medication, tell you are opiate tolerant, but when you tell them you think you are and addict they will treat you like crap. Sorry had to get that out. :!:. I even had my primary care Dr. call me a junkie.

My pain level is tolerable with a Flexeril tid and Vimovo bid (a Naprosyn mixture) so I know the Bup is covering it but I have another surgery in my near future to revise my Spinal Cord Simulator. The battery pack in my buttock did not heal under the fat pad as it was supposed to (maybe because I have lost 40lbs in the last 6 mths) and it just moving around and causing more sciatic pain than normal. My question would be then how am I to have this done while on Suboxone? I can have a block and local for the surgery itself but the post op pain is my concern :?: I guess I need to learn to cross bridges as they come.

Anyways, I just wanted to post how good I am doing today and will continue to update. This is truly an amazing drug and the hopes of just feeling normal are closer than they have ever been.

Is anybody else having or had dreams about their withdrawal? I have had these every night since it happened and hope it stops soon. I will take another kind of crazy ass dream over these. It is not an experience I want to relive again and again. Maybe its Gods way of reminding me where I don't want to go back to. 8)

What would be my options for an upcoming surgery? What if I decided to be put under?

Anyways, I am almost there as far as this stuff goes and very pleased with my progress, I guess you could say Proud!

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 11, 2012 1:07 am 
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KN - So glad to hear you're feeling better! Thanks for the update and keep on keeping us posted. :)

Pulpitis/Cale - I also thank you for the detailed information and taking the time to post it. I'm curious, is this a theory of yours or do you have a source(s) to provide with this? I'm also on sub for pain and just recently reduced my dose. I'll tell you how it went. I was on between 16-24 (usually 16) for 3+ years. I got pretty reasonable pain relief. Often I'd forget to take my meds until I hurt. My cravings were under control and no relapses.

About a month ago, for reasons I won't bore you with now, I dropped my dose in a matter of about 3 days from 16+ to 4 mg. The pain came SCREAMING BACK! This was nothing psychological, let me tell you. On a positive note, I suffered ZERO withdrawals and felt no different. Just less constipation and a bit less sweating. But I don't feel any different otherwise (not mentally or emotionally). Except for my very much increased pain. I'm hoping that I'll adjust to the lower dose and will soon get better pain relief although I have no clue if that's even possible. I'd love to read up on whatever sources you can provide that gave you this information.

Lastly, and I know you're just trying to help, but when you give your opinion on what someone's issue is, it's best to just say that it's your opinion instead of saying it like it's definitive. You really can't say for sure if someone's suffering from hyperalgesia, now can you? Someone might take you literally and act on your opinion as if it were a medical diagnosis. Just please take care to state that it's your opinion/thoughts. Thanks.

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-I'm only responsible for what I say, not for what you understand.


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