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PostPosted: Sun Oct 20, 2013 6:53 pm 
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Hello, brand new here.

I was put on 8mg of suboxone film 12 days ago. My doctor warned that I might think it's "too strong" at first, but to stick with it, my body will adjust, and I will be feeling like myself again.

Sure enough, after my first dose, I nodded out completely. Twelve days later, the effects are milder, but I am still nodding. I take my 8mg in the evening, so I'm semi-functional during the day. But after a dose, my head feels heavy and numb, and it's hard to keep my eyes open.

Does this mean 8mg is too high a dose? Too low?
Or is it just going to take more time to adjust to sub?

I've considered cutting the strip to a lower dose, but my doc put the fear of God into me about experimenting with the dosage.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 20, 2013 8:57 pm 
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I can't entirely relate because I've never had a nod on suboxone, even at 24mgs, but from everything I know, nodding is a sign of too much opiate for your system. I know your doctor said not to touch your dose, but it's quite common to have to make small adjustments without their knowledge. It's up to you really. In understand wanting to listen to your doctor,you might adjust shortly. The thing that concerns me is if you have to drive a lot. Nodding is dangerous when you're on the road. maybe if you tell your doctor the nodding hasn't subsided yet, he might have a new suggestion?

What was your tolerance like prior to starting suboxone?


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 21, 2013 10:37 pm 
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The nodding really only occurs a few hours after dosing. I have felt alert enough to drive with the exception of one day during my first week.

I told my doc about driving worries and nodding; he asked something like "what are you asking me?" Or "what is it that you want?" I asked if I could reduce my dose, he said no.

I'm getting worried too that very few people seem to feel the opiate effect like I do. Most people seem to have your experience. Regarding my tolerance, I was on & off Norco, on average 80 - 120mg a day. Doc said he would give me a comparable dose of sub.

But here's the worst part: because it makes me kinda nod and gives me that opiate sense of well being, I actually look forward to taking it in the evening. Getting home to take my sub has become a priority over almost everything else.
Sound familiar?
I'm scared....


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 22, 2013 1:58 pm 
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I experienced what you are going through, both the nod and the opiate feeling, at various times while I was on Sub.
If it were me I would go down to 4mg immediately and just not tell the doctor.
In fact, if it were me, I would consider starting to taper off Sub entirely and not get hooked on a stronger opiate (Sub) to get off a weaker opiate (Norco). But that's just me... I don't know your story.

Some will say it is addict behavior to not listen to your doctor and do it your way (which it is). But unfortunately a lot of doctors don't know shit about Suboxone. You will find people on this site on 8mg for IV heroin habits. Only you can decide what works for you and what amount you can function on. And, yes, Suboxone can end up being a drug you chase just like you chased your former doc. I know because I did it.

Best of luck to you,
Lilly

PS. I did nod out at the wheel on Sub, so please be careful


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 23, 2013 12:46 am 
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Oh wow. Thank you so much Lilly. First, it's good to know I'm not the only one who nods with sub. Second, I was thinking about tapering to 4mg, and you helped me make that a firm decision.
My doc said the goal is to get me off sub, but that it will be a long time before that happens!
Yes, its scary to go against his advise, but Its scarier to keep going like this. I'm in a daze all the time, except right after my dose and I zone out completely for hours.

I can feel myself becoming dependent on it.
I want to get off sub safely... Do you think once I go to 4 tomorrow, I should keep on tapering? I know that's a different topic.
Either way, 8mg is obviously too much, whether my doc recognizes it or not.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 23, 2013 1:17 am 
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Hi ToBeWell,

I agree with the advice to taper. It definitely sounds like your dose is too high to me. As for continuing the taper, the ideal situation would be to find where you feel comfortable and get stable there for awhile before you continue tapering. I tend to agree with those who think staying on a stable dose of suboxone for at least a few months is a really great way to learn some healthy coping skills and get yourself prepared to live a sober life.

Either way though, you need to find a stable dose for at least a few weeks before you continue to taper. Try 4mg and give it a few days. You need to be patient, it will take a few days for the extra you were taking to clear your system due to the stacking effect of the subs and the long half life.

I'm hoping to hear soon that you are feeling better!

Q

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 23, 2013 2:08 pm 
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Just wanted to add my 2 cents in that you shouldn't get yourself so worked up about going against the Dr.s advice, frankly if he were a bit more knowledgeable and understanding on the subject he would let you adjust your dose accordingly until you are stable and comfortable. Sub is not a one size fits all type of medication and I don't know why it is treated as such, different people will have higher or lower tolerances and others might just be extra sensitive to a potent opioid like bupe. Like others have already said I would lower my dose and not say a word about it, bupe levels can't be tested to an exact number because of the inconsistency and low BA due to Sublingual dosing so they will never know the difference if you take less. Don't feel bad for taking less than Rx'd because honestly Ive never met a person who didnt and you are not wrong for needing less, the literature by R&B that has trained Dr.s to believe 16mg is a MODERATE!!!!! medium size dose of bupe is whats wrong. Some drs are also adamant about staying on large doses but thats because they want to make sure that you are taking enough for the blocking effect to work but I can say with certainty for myself anyways that the blocking effect is in full effect even on a dose as low as 2mg a day.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 23, 2013 3:13 pm 
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Totally agree to all replies. Lower to 4 immediately.
Why get tolerant to 8mg and then add an extra 3years onto the eventual taper etc. I bet 4mg will hold you perfectly.
As q said, give it a few days to gauge so as the high levels are out of system a bit. Then you can see where you are at.
Once you start to stabilise at the high dose you are then stuck there. Also twice a day dosing not required. As you are aware it is an easy way to get emotionally dependant on it as well.
It can become a real monkey on your back.
Fix it now.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 25, 2013 11:29 am 
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I think the sub monkey is already on my back, probably
even before I started this thread.

Evidence of that is in the fact that the day after I decided to cut my dose, my brain told me I needed the full 8mg. Same thing yesterday. "I need the full strip to feel calm. I might not feel the 4mg. I'll stay at 8 until I see my doctor." Or "I'll stay on 8mg just a few more days."

After about 2 weeks, I feel totally hooked. I've never taken H, but the descriptions of the warm, sweet sense of well being & the melting away of troubles, is exactly how it feels to take sub.

I have received more support and feedback here than I have from my doc.

I'm so thankful to have found this place. But I'm scared I won't be able to cut back on my own. I feel stuck just like I did with norco. I couldn't taper that either.
I've got to cut my dose; I can't trust my doc because he's an "I know your body better than you do" type.
I'm really on my own here. Any advice on finding the
Strength to cut back?


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 25, 2013 11:27 pm 
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I'm sorry that you're struggling. I want you to know that I fully expect that your body will be used to 8 mg in a matter of a couple weeks and then you are not going to feel that nod. At that point it should be easier for you to cut your dose to 4 mg. When I tapered from 8 mg to 4 mg I took my time and stopped at 6 mg on the way. That taper was almost completely painless and very doable. Also, if you decide to try to chase that nod with more suboxone, it most likely won't work. It seems that most to all of us have tried to see if we could feel something with extra sub and it doesn't work.

It's too bad that sub doesn't affect everyone in the best possible way and right away! When I started on 16 mg, the sub did nothing but make me feel like a normal, non-obsessed person. Why can't it affect everyone that way??? I do think that is what good doctors want for their patients, and they've probably seen it work well many times in their practice. But the expectation that suboxone will work one way for everyone is completely unrealistic.

I hope you can follow the course that you think is best for you. Try not to be too terribly hard on yourself. Addicts, by definition, aren't perfect. Do the best you can. And remember, although suboxone is still an opiod, you're relatively safe from ODing on it. You can't say that about most narcotics.

Amy

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 26, 2013 12:24 pm 
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Thank you so much for the encouragement, Amy.
I'm at day 18 and last night I still nodded big time.

The funny thing is, the doctor told me my first day on sub will be my first day of sobriety, and I don't feel sober at all! Each day I'm a little more obsessed with taking my 8mg. I'm living my life around a drug once again. I can't tell you how much that scares me.
None of my addictive patterns have gone away, they've just attached themselves to sub. The long half life keeps me semi-looped all the time, so I'm not functioning at work. And evening plans are out of the question because after my dose I'm at zero functionality.

In many ways I feel like more of an addict than ever.

The only real difference is I have never taken any more sub than prescribed, and I haven't messed around with my dose at all.


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 26, 2013 1:08 pm 
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I experienced something like this when I was put on too much methadone in the beginning. You really should bring your dose down. When you get on the right dose, you're not high or nodding and you can actually function. Im sorry you're having trouble, this dose doesn't seem to be working for you. Try and change it.


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 26, 2013 3:34 pm 
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Im not trying to stir things up but this post just doesn't add up at all. Even if you are put on a high dose compared to the habit you went in for after as many weeks of being on it you do not feel high in the slightest, its pretty much physically impossible due to the nature of bupes half life and ceiling effect. The few people who do get high from it in the beginning almost always say that they stopped feeling effects after a few days. If Im wrong Im sorry but this thread seems more and more like a sly way for someone to bash sub while at the same time not get banned for it. I was with the OP up until they started saying how they basically fiend to take their sub dose everyday, anyone on sub maintenance knows its not like that at all. The only time you really think about your dose is while its under your tongue because you have to concentrate on not swallowing etc. Im not trying to be a jerk but I see this thread pop up all the time when I check the forum and its just day after day of someone saying they are fiending for their sub dose and they are getting intense euphoric nods from it, that just does not happen regardless of habit after being on it for weeks.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 27, 2013 11:18 am 
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Thank you, buprecision, for knocking me down at one the hardest times in my life. In no way am I bashing sub.
I thought it was a lifesaver initially. An Im thankful that sub has eliminated any cravings. I am not fiending for my dose. I'm sorry if that was unclear, l blame only myself and my addiction for looking forward to the calm my dose gives me. I'm not blaming sub.

I am just scared that my addictive behaviors continue.
For those people who just feel normal on sub, I am deeply envious.

To the posters who actually showed some empathy and support, thank you... I haven't reduced my dose yet.
I'm scared. Is it ok to just start taking half a film? Or should I cut my film so that I'm taking 3/4, then 2/3, then half the film??


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 27, 2013 11:25 am 
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I agree with part of what Buprecision is saying. This is definitely not the normal reaction someone has to suboxone. However, I won't go so far as to say the OP is lying. I've seen too many times how differently people can react to this drug.

Here's what I think ToBeWell, I think you need to immediately drop your dose in half. I know that you are feeling mentally attatched to the subs, but I can promise you that if what you are describing is true then you won't feel any WD's at all by dropping to 4mg. In fact, the opposite may be true...you very well may start feeling normal. That's what you should be aiming for!

I can totally understand how your addictive mind can push you into taking more sub than you need. I can even understand not wanting to drop the dose because you are afraid you won't feel good on the lower dose. But the fact is, you wanted to live a sober life or you wouldn't have went to get into suboxone therapy to start with. You need to draw on that strength you found when you started treatment and push yourself to get on a dose that makes you feel the way suboxone is supposed to make you feel. It shouldn't be all that hard to give yourself the push you need to try the 4mg dose for a couple days.

As Amy said though, even if for some reason you just can't find the courage to try 4mg your body should adjust to the 8mg dose pretty soon. It does seem like it has taken an incredibly long amount of time for it to happen for you, but it should happen. As Buprecision said, I've never seen anyone still be getting high off their dose, no matter how big it is, for very long. You will eventually get adjusted to it. The thing I fear though, is that if you don't get control of your desire to chase the "high" of it right now, you may want to increase your dose when it stops giving you that buzz. It won't work of course...but it won't stop you from trying.

You need to dig deep and look at why you started this to begin with. Suboxone isn't a magic pill that will make all of your addictive behaviors go away over night. You have to put the work in, and you have to be ready to TRY.

Let us know how you feel today.

Q

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 27, 2013 11:37 am 
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TBW,

I think you could try just cutting the film in half and going straight to 4 mg. You are likely not going to notice any withdrawal symptoms, but if you do it will be after 3 or 4 days at the new dose. Because of sub's long half life, it takes 3 or 4 days for the difference to be felt by your body. You are much more likely to feel the affects of the new dose right away with the nodding. It should be much reduced or non-existent at 4 mg.

Just remember that Buprecision is giving his opinion only and he doesn't represent anyone but himself. He obviously thinks he has enough knowledge to make the assertion that you are lying. There are probably many of us who don't think we've had such vast experience to make that call. So I wouldn't be too offended. :)

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 27, 2013 2:58 pm 
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ToBeWell wrote:
Thank you, buprecision, for knocking me down at one the hardest times in my life. In no way am I bashing sub.
I thought it was a lifesaver initially. An Im thankful that sub has eliminated any cravings. I am not fiending for my dose. I'm sorry if that was unclear, l blame only myself and my addiction for looking forward to the calm my dose gives me. I'm not blaming sub.

I am just scared that my addictive behaviors continue.
For those people who just feel normal on sub, I am deeply envious.

To the posters who actually showed some empathy and support, thank you... I haven't reduced my dose yet.
I'm scared. Is it ok to just start taking half a film? Or should I cut my film so that I'm taking 3/4, then 2/3, then half the film??

Im sorry if I offended it wasn't the intent, Im sure I seem like an ass but I really wasnt trying to make anyone feel bad. Its just kind of par for the course around here when someone relatively new shows up and posts things that aren't the norm several times about sub that you kind of have to feel out if they are being sincere or not, lots of people show up to this site with the sole intention of spreading misinformation because of some type of agenda so I apologize.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 27, 2013 3:06 pm 
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Amy-Work In Progress wrote:
TBW,

I think you could try just cutting the film in half and going straight to 4 mg. You are likely not going to notice any withdrawal symptoms, but if you do it will be after 3 or 4 days at the new dose. Because of sub's long half life, it takes 3 or 4 days for the difference to be felt by your body. You are much more likely to feel the affects of the new dose right away with the nodding. It should be much reduced or non-existent at 4 mg.

Just remember that Buprecision is giving his opinion only and he doesn't represent anyone but himself. He obviously thinks he has enough knowledge to make the assertion that you are lying. There are probably many of us who don't think we've had such vast experience to make that call. So I wouldn't be too offended. :)

Amy

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If you wanna bash me for trying to find out if someone is being truthful or not thats ok I guess, I for one don't want information like this about sub that it "makes you fiend all day and sends you into euphoric nods" to be out there for anyone to read unless I know that its true to that persons experience. What if someones probation officer was on the fence about letting their client stay on bupe maintenance and decided to do some research online and just so happened to stumble upon this thread and read that it gets you super high and makes you crave it like its heroin even if you take it as prescribed? The OP refused to take anyones advice and continued to post about getting ripped off of 8mgs everyday, while everyone on here told them to lower their dose and it would almost certainly stop happening. If you pose a question and refuse the valid advice and then in turn keep saying how high you are getting I don't see anything constructive happening from those types of posts. And I never once said that the OP was lying, I basicaly said in so many words Im skeptical of what they are saying because its never happened to anyone Ive ever talked to on subs and between this forum and friends I have I know a lot of people who are on it.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 14, 2013 3:21 pm 
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I avoided checking my thread for a while. Now that I have no substances to act as a buffer, I'm overly sensitive and kind of paranoid. I certainly didn't intend to stir up any conflict.

Here is my update: As of my last post, I started taking 3/4 of a strip, so 6mg. Sent my doc an email that I still felt over medicated on 8mg, and he agreed to cutting my dose. This had helped a lot. I can function just fine during the day, I can drive and work, all is good.

When I take my dose in the evening though, I'm still loopy for the rest of the night. By loopy, I mean no euphoria, no nodding, but in a half-awake, half-dreaming state. The next thing I know, it's 10pm and I haven't even eaten dinner yet. I also have a lot of trouble waking the next day, and extreme numbness in my hands.
So there's been an improvement, but not totally back to normal.

Amy, from your feedback it sounds like another decrease to 4mg would help me get my nights back. Does this sound like a good plan?

My addiction tells me that decreasing anything is a terrible idea. But my desire for sobriety and health is telling me that if 6mg got me half way normal, 4mg is probably just right.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 14, 2013 4:30 pm 
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Tbw...just read your thread.
For me, i have found that the lower ive droped my dose, the more some of these side effects shrink.
Im on day 4 from droping from 6mgs to 4mgs.
I feel fine. I have felt more awake in the morning . Now i know it is early but this ihow i feel today.
Also, that evening dose, ive bn taking it later in the afternoon. No more evening doses. Give that a try as well.
It cant hurt. Bn at 6mgs for 10 months now.but thougbt it was time to drop to 4..oh and i had that numb hand thing too..still have alittle still..idk..hope thos helps some..sounds like your doing well..hang in there...razor......


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