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PostPosted: Wed Jan 25, 2012 8:29 pm 
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Mom - I can only imagine how tough this is for you. I cannot tell you that I know how you feel, because I do not. Please understand that I mean no offense at all when I say this, and remember these are my ideas only. I am not a doctor, nor am I professional. I have personal experience with chemical dependency and was a social worker so I have dealt with addicts and parents. Chemical Dependency often has some very common traits. I also had a somewhat co-dependent relationship, but yours seems very extreme. Again, no offense.

My counselor in rehab (a former addict and co-dependent herself) often said

"Those who love us are often as sicker than we are"

She did not mean this in a mean way or offensive way. But these issues effect everyone, furthermore, they bring out all sorts of stuff in people. I do not know your past history, but it seems like you have tried to "fix" people before (like your second husband). Sticking with an active addict for 12 years is not something most would do. Oftentimes, children of addicts/alcoholics often marry addicts, because it is the type of person they are familiar with. You cannot fix your daughter, you cannot get her clean. She has to do the work, you have to be supportive. My family were very helpful with me after they stopped enabling and let the professionals do the work.

First of all, you have to stop letting your daughter float in and out of your house. Basically, she is allowed to go out and use (you can get drugs with no money, in fact, people get addicted to "the hustle".) Not only does she have a place to crash, she also gets to come back and take Suboxone which removes her withdrawals.

Using/getting clean is all about consequences. Very often the addict has to feel them to want to stop. I am not a total believer in "rock bottom" but something inside of the addict has to change. ONLY THEY CAN GET CLEAN. I just got tired of using, began developing health problems and my mind was going to some dark places. Other people have to face different things. I have to say that I was never a needle nor herion user. That often complicates things.

I hate to say this, but enabling an addict is often THE WORST thing for them. I have a relative who was enabled for decades (a master of it, he still tries too) who cannot stay clean for any length of time, has brain damage and needs a liver transplant. This MIGHT (keyword MIGHT) not have happened had he not had a place to stay and money given to him. His use has went on for decades and I cannot imagine just how addicted he actually is. I mean this, I cannot comprehend just how far gone he is, and I myself used.

You very well may contribute to her getting arrested or worse.

What I would suggest is this:

1. Write up a contract for your daughter and you to sign. State that THIS IS HER LAST CHANCE. If she uses she is OUT. Think of what you are comfortable with, what about drug testing her? Sub will not show up, but dope and other opiates will. A refusal to take a test counts as a positive one. You must abide by this, no exceptions. Then both sign it. It would have been best to do this in treatment, but not time like the present. Require her to attend therapy, AA/NA, SMART RECOVERY, something. If she does use, she will try every trick in the book, but you must remain steadfast.

This does not mean that you will never let her back in, but require that she be sober and in therapy for a certain amount of time. Really, the best thing for her would be a half way house, however, he facility must not have felt she was really ready to get clean.

2. Suboxone isn't going to make her want to get clean. Suboxone is a great tool for recovery, but many also use it as a "don't get sick pill". Selling it shouldn't be the biggest concern, the fact that she is using it as a fallback should be. Using Suboxone to keep yourself from withdrawals until you can use again will very often prolong the use.

If she is disappearing for days she is probably using. She needs to stop using everything for a good amount of time. No commitment to life long sobriety but she is going to have to stop disappearing, stop making dope runs, figure out which friends actually care for her etc. Addicts are often very sneaky. Just because you do not see fresh tracks does not mean she isn't using. Plus, a persons mind can convince themselves of things when they really want to believe it. Also, where is she getting the Xanax from? Is she buying it on the street? This very well might be putting her into contact with people with other types of drugs. Xanax is kind of a one size fits all drug for addicts, wether you are coming down from a coke run or in withdrawal because you cannot cop dope.

Again, Sub is a great tool for recovery and is nothing to be ashamed about. Who cares if some idiots in 12 step meetings say she isn't really clean. Screw them, they don't know what they are talking about. But right now, it seems that she is just using it as another tool in her addictions quest to stay active.

Furthermore, does her doctor know she is using Xanax? The way she is playing with her tolerance this could be really dangerous. If her doctor does not know that she is using xanax then that doc should. No excuses. Combining depressants is extremely dangerous. But, It is extremely important that you let her take the medicine her doctor prescribes when she is not using (not using seriously). There is no shame in taking medication.

I disagree with the suggestion to let her continue to use pot. At least for a few months. Addicts need to learn how to deal with things without using. Plus, pot can cause anxiety which can lead people to use. I know at various times when I would smoke I would often then want to try to find an opiate or benzo.



3. This might be the most important, you must see a professional or attend something like Al-Anon. I know you have done tons of research, but that will not have the impact on your behavior that you and your daughter need. You need support and need people that have gone through this. Just today my current therapist said: It doesn't matter if you have 10 degrees, you still feel.

You are not responsible for your older daughter. Plus CONSIDER YOUR YOUNGEST.... right now she is seeing her mother give her daughter lots of attention for doing some very negative things. Kids can do some crazy thing for attention, like pickup and use.


Please realize that I am not yelling at you with the capital letters, its just that I am trying very hard to make my point. My mother went to a few Al-Anon meetings but doesn't go anymore. That is okay, it helped her figure out how to detach. Detaching is something that helped me big time.

I wish you the best, really I do. But please realize that enabling plays a major role. Your daughter very likely knows just which buttons to push. She has had lots of practice. I am sure you have heard every excuse in the book, I am sure she has said some incredibly mean things to you. A chemically dependent person is not who that person really is, but when they are using that is the situation you are dealing with. The fact that she used the day she got home suggest to me that she had no intentions of stopping. There are lots of people like this in rehab. Lots of people try to manipulate unintentionally. Crazy stuff, but your brain can go on autopilot. That relative I mentioned earlier is so used to lying that he does it all the time. He has supposedly been clean for six months but still lies and still is in denial.

I know its hard to hear, but she just might not be ready. She is still young. I know I wasn't at 21. Oh, and I would not try to get her on intervention, but I think that show is totally unethical. If she needs treatment call up medicare, I am sure they can give her more options. However, if she is burning through rehabs then its less likely they will let her come back.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 16, 2012 12:50 pm 
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Any update? Again, I do hope I did not offend as that was far from my intent. If you have any questions about what I said please feel free to post them or PM me if you want to keep it private.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2012 4:13 am 
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This is almost the opposite argument that my mother and I have. I've been on suboxone for one month and I feel strongly that I DO NOT need the 6 months that she wants me to stay on them. I only take around 2mg of subs/day. If she thinks its too high, it may be too high of a dose! My mother was forcing me to take 8mgs and I was noding off and having anxiety attacks. I finally cute my dose in half (to 4mgs) and now to (2mg) and feel sooo much better! I am also almost 30 years old and probably a bit more mature and in control than she is. (I'm just speculating here due to the age difference). She clearly needs to be on the subs for a longer period than you had her on before. Her case is much more serious than mine. I plan on a 3 month sub recovery and then I want to do sub maintenance, as needed, after that (that means, have them on hand, and only take 2mg if i feel like a need it/have cravings, etc). I was only REALLY bad for 6 months, so her heroin usage was longer than mine. Sometimes I feel like doctors want you to be on it for longer, because they get paid every months she is! So, I would suggest finding a great therapist specializing in opiate addiction as well. Both of you should see and talk with the addiction specialist (NOT the prescribing doctor) to try and come up with the right amounts of time for her to be on suboxone. She should be young enough that her brain chemicals will reset, from what you have said and what I know, I do not think she is irreparable. I personally think you should eventually start to tapper her dose to a low enough one, like 4mg. That way it will be less of a struggle to get off the subs when it is time. Make sure the people she was doing heroin with, are with not her friends anymore, or that they are clean or getting clean. She has to be around strong people and good friends that want to see her succeed and that care about her well being. Doing drugs was her choice, so no one else should be blamed, but it doesn't seem that she is strong enough to be around the same people.

You are an amazing mother, just keep sticking by her side, try not to judge and smother, just be proud of her and love her during this battle. My mother was a bit more judgmental, and all I wanted and NEEDED for my recovery was positive reinforcement. It seems as though you are doing that. So keep up the good work! Know you are not alone and SHE is not alone.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 22, 2013 12:44 pm 
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Just reading this post...She is only 21 so she is definately not ready but DONT GIVE UP on her thats the worse thing you can do. My mother didnt give up on me she even took care of my son until I was ready and got the help I needed. She will eventually be ready but there is nothing you can do until then besides send here away for awhile until she can see that life is better without opiates but thats very hard to see and to even get to that point to see it.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 22, 2013 3:07 pm 
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21 is more than old enough to stay clean and be ready for it!


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 03, 2013 8:59 pm 
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Hi and welcome to the forum
I am new to the forum and suboxone as well. I am an addict of six years ( typing that part and reading it was just mind blowing for me... I am an addict ... Wow) of percocets cocaine and basically everything but actual heroin in my arm but who knows what another year ofbeing sick might have led me to. Anyways I read your question and must admit it issed me off a little bit so of I say this please understand I'm passionate not trying to make you feel like an asshole. Your daughter has a disease a disease that has no cure only treatment. Not one person on this forum not even the dr who began this can absolutely with 100 percent conviction can ever say they would meet touch a drug again because we are dies eased and our disease tells us that we need drugs to be happy to be loved to be secure to be pretty to be cool whatever floats are boats are diseases Job is to tell us we are not worthy of a clean and sober life and no one but an addict will be able to know what that feels like. Your daughter is lucky to have you in her side but you have to be a follower in this not a leader because reguardless of what you think of suboxone the truth is that is what is ultimately keeping your daughter from sticking another needle in her arm which we can all agree will most likely if continued will lead to her early death. The lesser of the two evils right now is the suboxone and it is not whether you are ready for her to get off suboxone but if she is ready Nd I'm sure she isn't ready three months. Is not enough time to cure her of a four year long addiction . This is going to take a lot of therapy meetings counseling and suboxone in whatever her dr decides is best for her. This is her recovery not yours mom so your opinion about her suboxone isn't as important as you feel sorry. Yes you are a big part of her recovery but this is her rodeo you can not decide how long for her to stay on or how long it should take pushin her is only going to make her relapse which is exactly what needs to be avoided. I hoped the best for both of you but please back up and let her decide what her treatment is and how long it will be.

Love and light,
Itsybitsyspider


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 03, 2013 9:07 pm 
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21 is absolutely a great time to be clean you can't make a blanket statement like that my husband is 21 and on suboxone and was ready to be clean at 20 after doing drugs for six years and got tired of the roller coaster. But he chose this not anyone else. Not everyone at 41 years old will be ready it's different for everyone. I'm 25 soon to be 26 and was done years ago but didn't know anything about suboxone until this year. When she is ready she is ready. If we don't get tired of the up and down ride the ultimate ending is death and that is the worst case scenario for us.


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PostPosted: Mon May 18, 2015 5:39 am 
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Wow, I got really into reading that story and was hoping for a happy ending, but I guess we will never know. It must be hard for you longtime members to read story after story and so many times the writer never finishes it. I always hope for a happy ending, it is hard to not know.

I wish her and her daughter the best. I hope they never finished because they put that episode of their life behind them and the daughter was just in a phase and is off to college and the mom visits her and they are happy at Christmas and laughing and not even thinking about the time, three years ago she wouldn't take her medicine.

I guess that is how the story is going to end in my mind at least.


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PostPosted: Mon May 18, 2015 7:12 am 
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The biggest issue here, is the underlying factor. I'm sure some people use to feel good, but most of us use to feel peace. The type of peace the frees us from uncomfortable emotional responses to stress: the type of emotions that cause anxiety, depression, obsessive compulsive disorder, post traumatic stress disorder.

the only reason I'm sober right now, and I had the courage and strength to quit everything is because I gained control of my emotionally charged thoughts, and my belief system began to change. This is all because meditation.

If your daughter is at rock bottom, she may see meditation as a method of releasing all of that pain, the kind of emotional pain that sits in your gut, and eats at your soul. That's the kind of pain that drugs eliminate. Ironically, that's the same pain that meditation focuses on and eliminates.

Most people never come to grasp the simplicity of meditation. Some of us might assume it's spiritual, where others already seem to know the outcome of such a practice without ever giving it their full attention.

Two weeks into my withdrawal from suboxone after learning meditation, I began to notice my lifelong beliefs, and fears followed by constant anxiety and pain began to literally disappear. I was in a position where I was dying from the pills, at only 25 years old I was almost dead. Realizing that put in a position to have an open mind. I was rock bottom. Anything I did at that point was only going to help me.

Not having a choice is what I credit allowed me to figure out meditation. And trust me, once you notice how effective it is, and how similar the outcome of meditation is to using drugs, it's very difficult to put meditation down. I can't see myself ever going a day without doing it once in the morning for fifteen minutes

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 29, 2015 1:41 pm 
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Hi there. I'm really sorry for everything you and your daughter have been going through. It's just my opinion, but I would let her stay on the Suboxone as long as she feels she needs too. I was in a similar position and Suboxone has changed my life around. It has meant I can lead a normal life and don't have to be around people who don't have my best interests at heart, or the danger if not knowing what you could be buying on the streets. I wish your daughter all the best in her recovery and hope you can stay strong for her. The support of my family has been just as important as the Suboxone.


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 03, 2015 8:21 pm 
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I am new to all this...I accidently put my new post and it was a long one on subject. Side effects
No one has posted in like a long time. I saw this had 69 replies....no disrespect to original poster. I am to sick to type it out again....can u guys go there and HELP ME


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 15, 2015 5:33 am 
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If any parent needs to do this and please read as I am 26 and put my family threw hell and I am clean because I wanted to be clean and I love my family.for the parent make sure you have control over your kids suboxone doses and whole script as most kids as I did would sell my suboxone for other drugs pills or dope.make sure you watch them take it till its gone.hide or put the scrip in a safe as the will steal there own meds to sell for dope!have long loving talks with them don't be mad or show anger as my mom did it helped me a lot the hope this works as it will limit the chance to sell or buy treat them like they are a kid don't let them go to friends cause by this time there friends are drug addicts also if at the end nothing works TUFF love is the BEST...I pray for any family for your pain as I see the eyes of my mother and father I have hurt and destroyed threw the years I am clean now for a year and have a normal and happy mom and dad a normal friend I been a addict 16-25 and its worth it I'm clean and happy the light at the end of the tunnel is there and thank the lord and my family


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 16, 2015 12:36 am 
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AshCal3 wrote:
I plan on a 3 month sub recovery and then I want to do sub maintenance, as needed, after that (that means, have them on hand, and only take 2mg if i feel like a need it/have cravings, etc).


This idea might sound good in theory, but taking Suboxone occasionally like this can actually have a negative effect on your recovery. As you'll have no opioid tolerance, taking Sub here-and-there will inevitably give you a slight opioid buzz, even in tiny doses. While it may help to keep you off heroin in the short term, what you're actually doing is reinforcing the addictive circuit in your brain. Rather than learning to push through the discomfort, you're once again relying on a drug to get you through. ie I feel a craving / discomfort, so I'll take a drug and then it makes me feel better. Also you're denying yourself the learning experience of coming up with healthy techniques and strategies to push through the cravings. You'll also definitely be winding the clock back on your PAWS recovery timeline. Recovery from a period of opioid dependence takes a long time, and each slip / relapse sets you back.

If you really feel the need for a drug to safe-guard relapse, perhaps look at Revia / Naltrexone. It will block any effect of taking other opiates without giving you a buzz, without denying you the learning opportunity and (though this is only speculation) might not wind back the clock on your recovery.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 16, 2015 6:24 pm 
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TJ is spot on, and he's been through several relapses and periods of abstinence and maintenance on sub. It is unwise to discount his advice!

Amy

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 22, 2015 6:27 pm 
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I just wanted to take a moment to applaud the OP. You seem very knowledgeable regarding the disease of addiction and treatment via maintenance therapy. Many parents/family members didn't and still dont take the time to educate themselves regarding the disease and treatment options. I wish my family had been supportive when I was on a long-term program. Your daughter is very lucky to have a compassionate and empathetic mother who really "gets it". Personally I didn't have this type of support and feel my decision to taper was influenced heavily by familial pressure and criticism. It was a terrible decision, which I do take full ownership of, and always wonder...Anywho enough of me and back to you. Again I think you're a wonderful mother. Addiction is such a devastating disease which can break families apart due to the active addict behavior. Hang in there momma!!


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 15, 2016 7:07 pm 
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I don't mean to sound harsh, but some of your language alarms me... "WE would stay on it," "I will let her stay on," and that kind of thing. I know your daughter will always be your baby girl, but she is an adult and needs to be allowed to grow and develop her own autonomous recovery. She is an IV opiate addict, she will have PAWS regardless. I've white-knuckled it and battled PAWS after rehab centers etc and it was nearly impossible to stay clean. On Suboxone it is much easier. Even if she develops PAWS after tapering off Suboxone some day, she's got a much better shot once her entire lifestlyle is conducive to abstinence. Suboxone allows us room and time to develop a healthy life. It's harder to resist relapse when it's right in our review mirror and we still have drug connections etc. We need to learn how to live a different way and Suboxone allows us a better chance to do that. I went to my first NA meeting with my dad at age 19. I am 36 and now on Suboxone with three weeks clean. I only wonder how my life would be if I had this tool at age 19. It's so hard to let go, but you cannot force her to recover. Your help and support is beneficial but as best as you can, don't try to take control of the process. What are you doing to support yourself? You should definitely check out CODA or maybe an Alanon meeting. It sounds like it could be a great help to you to have a support network of other parents who have been through the same thing.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 21, 2016 4:25 am 
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For what it's worth, I am an oxy addict and dipped into snorting heroin due to the price, although I could easily afford the oxy, I just tell myself it was because of the price....money has no bearing on addiction :/. Anyway, anytime I lower my dose below 4mg I end up craving opiates, jump off completely for 4- 5 days, take a bunch of oxy, don't get high anymore after 3 or 4 days, contemplate getting Heroin, don't feel like going through the hassle of getting it, lying to my friends and family, being dope sick, so I just end up being oxy sick for 24-48 hours and jump back on subs at 8mg then rinse and repeat. The reason I drop my sub dose in the first place is because I have absolutely zero sex drive while on the meds. So its sex vs heroin, and I like both. My advice, which isn't worth much, is there is absolutely nothing wrong with being on Subs if your daughter isn't trying to get off of it to get high. I am a chronic pain patient, so once I go off of the meds I am back in pain, so I should probably be a lifer on the Subs, because I was already a lifer on codeine and Vicodin. Besides some testosterone reduction, I personally don't see the problem with being on Suboxone, especially since your daughter was shooting heroin, she is most definitely only psychologically feeling like she is getting high, trust me, she isn't. I have a pretty intense job, and when I was using I was most definitely irresponsible and careless, but on Subs I'm my same old miserable pain in the a@s workaholic self.

Also, I don't mean to be rude, but what exactly is it that you have against Suboxone? Compared to heroin withdrawal, for me, sub WD was a piece of cake...some minor chills and aches...With Heroin, I was begging for some Benzos and Clonidine during my withdrawals, but with Sub, I pop a Tylenol (can't take aspirin), then go to work, come home, watch tv with a frown on my face, then go to bed, all of which lasts about a week to ten days. I was completely clean about a year ago and I can without a doubt say all is the same on Suboxone minus my lowered testosterone. I make the same decisions, go through the same emotional stress, hang out with my friends and love my girlfriend of 3 years the same, I just don't have sex or get as muscular as I used to from the same effort at the gym. I'm sure others have side effects, but everyone is different. If she doesn't have any intolerable side effects, why bother her about it? It's her recovery, and unless you are a Suboxone trained Dr, you really have no right telling her when to stop Suboxone. Everyone that knows I'm on it knows how much of a godsend the drug is and they actually do the opposite of you, they make sure I'm taking it daily, which I guess my still rebellious self doesn't like that either :/. Take it easy on your daughter, if she isn't putting her life at risk via her addiction, consider that a victory, and the first of many.


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