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 Post subject: cross eyed from sub?
PostPosted: Thu Jun 15, 2017 3:33 am 
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i take a relatively low dose of sub 6 mg a day and it doesnt really produce a euphoria any more but i get cross eyed at times like im nodding out on an opioid. im worried theyll become stuck or cause damage to the nerves. anyone have this issue


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 Post subject: Re: cross eyed from sub
PostPosted: Thu Jun 15, 2017 11:12 am 
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Hi Seeker,

I wish I had the faintest idea of what you are talking about! When I was nodding out in active addiction I never, ever had a feeling of my eyes crossing. I've never heard anyone else talk about their eyes crossing from sub.

All I do know is that I remember that adults would always tell kids that if they crossed their eyes, they would get stuck that way. But that's an old wive's tale. There is no cause and effect that buprenorphine has on nerves or muscle damage. So my answer is no, suboxone does not cause permanent cross eyed damage.

Have a great day! :)

Amy

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 Post subject: Re: cross eyed from sub?
PostPosted: Thu Jun 15, 2017 12:02 pm 
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Couldn't have said it better myself, Amy :) We used to get the same warning!

Also Seeker, I doubt your daily dose of Subs are doing anything at all for you in the way of altering your consciousness.


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 Post subject: Re: cross eyed from sub?
PostPosted: Thu Jun 15, 2017 6:59 pm 
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My mom always told me that too!! And it worked, I stopped crossing them in fear. So she obviously knew how to scare the bajeebus out of me and my brother.

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 Post subject: Re: cross eyed from sub?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 16, 2017 4:06 am 
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Cross eyed and cock eyes. Opiates definitely have an effect on the eyes. Go to your local inner city and look at a heroin addicts eyes. They'll be very colorful, the pupil will barely be there, and they're eyes wander in opposite directions it's like each one has a mind of its own. When I was nodding out on heroin at times I could barely read my text messages because I was trying to fight off the nod. It's like trying to read a book and keep your eyes open as you go to sleep.

This cock eyes thing has something to do with REM. In REM the eyes roll everywhere they are let loose from our conscious mind controlling them. When you're on an opiate it's like being on the verge of sleep. Narcotic means sleep inducing. Papaver SOMNIferum meaning sleep. When opiates at a high dose hit the system it loosens up the control our we have on our nerve endings.

I think by taking this opioid medication it's like a nerve memory response to when I would not out on heroin that causes me to go cock eyes. Extremely drunk people go cock eyes too. Similar drugs


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 Post subject: Re: cross eyed from sub?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 16, 2017 6:35 am 
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It is definitely proven fact that opioid medications can cause pupillary miosis, which is the constricting or "pinning" of the pupils. So a person on heroin would, indeed have constricted pupils. That is a separate process than that of "nodding out".

I found this description of nodding as it relates to CNS depression:

"Opioids are primarily CNS depressing substances. They lower the heart rate and as a consequence less oxygen exchange occurs by the alveoli. This then causes there to be a small decrease in the total amount of oxygen dissolved in the blood, causing hypoxia. This state forces the body to slow down metabolic activity. What you is then experienced is this slow down coupled with hypoxia causing you to be less alert and unfocused. The slower overall CNS activity causes a decline in the overall "level" of consciousness, leading to the nod."

I've never heard anything about there being a nerve memory process from a heroin-induced nod that would be triggered by suboxone. If you could find some sort of article to back up what you're talking about that would be really helpful to me, because I am not sure what you are saying. And if I do get what you're saying I would have to disagree, because being a partial agonist, buprenorphine is not going to cause the same kind of CNS depression that heroin would. This is especially true when you've taken buprenorphine several days in a row, since a nodding reaction is less likely to occur after each successive dose. So I definitely am not understanding the connection you are trying to make.

I hope you can find something that helps me understand where you are coming from!

Amy

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 Post subject: Re: cross eyed from sub?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 16, 2017 5:41 pm 
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yes, opioids cause the pupils to constrict (thinks Amy!). But that effect is tolerance-dependent. If someone naive to opioids took 2 mg of buprenorphine, his pupils would constrict. But people stable on the medication have normal pupils.

No amount of any opioid will change eye color.

Meperidine (Demerol) is the only common opioid that does not constrict the pupils, which is a classic med school board question. Meperidine was a great med in the OR when used as part of the sedation for awake fiberoptic intubation. The atropine- like effect from the med dries up secretions, and the drug has a nice flat plateau after IV injection, rather than the peak and fall-off from many other drugs. (Friday trivia)

I assume by 'cocked eyes' the poster is referring to disconjugate gaze. Nerve centers in the brainstem control the muscles that move the eye. The system is an example of the amazing things that we take for granted from our brains... the images that hit each retina are processed by the cortex at the back of our brains, and signals are sent from there to motor centers, which then send signals to the nuclei in the brainstem. The nuclei control cranial nerves that go to muscles that move eyes in, out, up, down, or in rotational directions until the images are aligned. The system is confused if you look at those 3-D animated images, and then the image locks in place and 'jumps out' at you... Beyond helping you see, the degree that the eyes are moved to lock the images together tells the higher brain regions the depth of field, and the distance to the image we are seeing.

Brainstem function usually is the last part of the brain to be damaged or depressed by drugs or low oxygen levels. SOME drugs preferentially impact the visual system, such as ketamine. But usually consciousness is impaired first, and then later you get effects on the brainstem that cause the eyes to stop tracking together.

Another anesthesia tidbit... as people progress through stages of anesthesia, they pass through stage 2, the excitatory stage when reflexes are increased. At that point the eyes point in opposite directions. Then in the deeper stages, the eyes become relaxed and sit in a neutral position, appearing to be lined up, but seeing nothing.

Sleep and depressed conciousness will cause the eyes to track independently for reasons that aren't clear: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4904152/


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 Post subject: Re: cross eyed from sub?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 16, 2017 8:49 pm 
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A couple of my old Vietnamese dealers had nasty cases of strabismus from injecting heroin constantly. One eye was just looking somewhere completely different. One of them had their left eyeball constantly pointed outwards.

Never heard of Suboxone causing this, or even methadone? Rather I've only associated it with heavy heroin dependence.

It can also happen to infants exposed to methadone & other opioids in the womb. Not sure about Suboxone though.

Now you mention it Seeker I do remember when I used to use heroin, I had to close one eye to have to read, because my other eye was always out of focus. Maybe I was on the way to being one of the crazy-eyed as well! Thank god I'm not using anymore.


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 Post subject: Re: cross eyed from sub?
PostPosted: Sun Jun 18, 2017 10:58 pm 
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Suboxdoc, I mean it just allows more of the iris to show, so for a bright green eyed person like me when i am on opiates the color of my eyes is so extremely pronounced i get comments all the time abour how colorful my eyes look. Brown eyed people ger away with being on opiates easier becausd the constriction isnt that obvious. The exotropia I experience from MDMA is so severe the eye balls literally roll around the whole socket, which is one of the reasons it is called "rolling" on Molly as opposed to nodding.

Amy i wasnt trying to state a scientific fact moreso just pintificating. In terms of memory I'm referring to neuroplasticity, which is a very eclectic term. Neuroplasticity can be observed at multiple scales, from microscopic changes in individual neurons to larger-scale changes such as cortical remapping. However, cortical remapping is more extensive early in development, whether being 14 when my brain was exposed to opiates and using them until this day (19 years old) while my brain is still forming may have a more pronounced effect. Behavior,environmental stimuli, thought, and emotions may also cause neuroplastic change through activity-dependent plasticity, which has significant implications for healthy development, learning, memory, and recovery from brain damage. At the single cell level, synaptic plasticity refers to changes in the connections between neurons, whereas non-synaptic plasticity refers to changes in their intrinsic excitability.

Here I found an article on drug induced ocular nystagmus to help you grasp what were talking about here.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articl ... po=29.3651

The paragraph on cranial neuropathic and strabismus may help you to understand better Amy! (If you don't know what Google scholar is I highly recommend using it!)

And TeeJay, the diplopia I get from opiates, even suboxone at times mainly when it's late at night is terrible it hurts my eyes!! I've noticed a significant decrease in eye sight performance since starting suboxone. Actually had to get my prescription contact lenses changed theres been a -1.00 difference since starting this opiate. Opiates dull all my senses, that why they're used as analgesics I suppose.


Last edited by Seeker11 on Mon Jun 19, 2017 12:18 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: cross eyed from sub?
PostPosted: Sun Jun 18, 2017 11:10 pm 
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LOL classic bait and switch. And only rough on the female? interesting.

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 Post subject: Re: cross eyed from sub?
PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 12:20 am 
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Lol my bad about forgetting the article link I had to edit it to include the site. All better now Pelican!


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 Post subject: Re: cross eyed from sub?
PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 1:02 am 
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The comment about Google scholar was not meant to be rough on Amy. I just think that not too many people know about GoogleScholar. I think it's a great tool we can all use to find professional articles published


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 Post subject: Re: cross eyed from sub?
PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 1:05 am 
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Seeker11 wrote:
The comment about Google scholar was not meant to be rough on Amy. I just think that not too many people know about GoogleScholar. I think it's a great tool we can all use to find professional articles published


Awesome, thank you for the clarification.

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 Post subject: Re: cross eyed from sub?
PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 9:25 am 
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After this, I choose to not read your posts.
You know what you wrote.
I know what I read.
You knew what my response meant.
You drastically edited/covered up after reading my response.
Plus your overt focus on active addiction is concerning.

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Stopping went well -- its the staying stopped -- where the real work begins.
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 Post subject: Re: cross eyed from sub?
PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 1:35 pm 
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I also read your dig to Amy as if she never heard of Google, later edited. While the thread in itself
isn't all that interesting, we did learn something, thank you Dr J.

Let this be a hint of a warning not disrespect the mods please.

Razor...


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 Post subject: Re: cross eyed from sub?
PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 5:51 pm 
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Thank you to the folks who acknowledged what was really being said on this thread. I always appreciate it when people care enough to call a spade a spade (a phrase which entered the English language in 1542). Even though I didn't see the original version, the put-down still came through.

Yes, I'm well aware of Google Scholar since I am in grad school for addiction studies. What I don't appreciate about Google Scholar is that so many of the articles are expensive to access. But if I find an abstract that seems promising, I can usually find it on my university library website. I haven't specifically studied how ocular muscles and nerves are affected by drug abuse, but I suppose I should have remembered that one of the diagnostic tools medical professionals use is pupillary reaction to light. Makes sense.

Neuroplasticity is a very interesting subject to me for some of the reasons you've described. Brain alteration during adolescence does occur with drug and alcohol use. During the teenage years the brain is undergoing synaptic pruning, which involves the pruning of neurons, and the myelination of neurons. The brain is discarding neurons that are less useful and myelination is occurring to protect the neurons that are important and increasing the speed at which the neurons conduct information. Drug and alcohol use disrupt both of these processes.

One of the crucial areas of development during adolescense is in connection with the frontal cortex. This is a part of the brain involved in executive functioning and impulsivity or risk-taking. Various studies support the hypothesis that substance abuse during adolescence impairs the brain's ability to develop these areas of function. Here is one: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2827693/ If you read this article you will see that impulsivity is only one of the disrupted processes affected by drug and alcohol use during the teen years. The idea that the brain can remodel itself back to peak ability is comforting to those who have chosen to abuse substances at an early age.

Further study into the possible effects of buprenorphine in ocular functioning has not yielded anything specific to buprenorphine. I found an article proposing that neonates exposed to opiates, including buprenorphine and methadone, may have increased instances of ocular malfunction, but the conclusion of the study did not include any indication of the proposed malfunctions having a causal effect from buprenorphine.

According to the FDA, among the 15,250 people who have reported side effects from suboxone (the combination of buprenorphine and naloxone), 8 have reported strabismus. (May 15, 2017) The strabismus was reported to occur only within the first month of use and only in males ages 30-39 (30%) and 50-59 (70%). Females have not reported incidences of strabismus as a side effect of suboxone. Of course, this report does not explain which drug (buprenorphine, naloxone, both, or neither) caused the side effect, just the reported incidences. http://www.ehealthme.com/ds/suboxone/strabismus/

There have been reports of ocular infection after intravenous buprenorphine use called Candida endophthalmitis. The article I found indicates that infection only occurred after high dose buprenorphine IV use. Ocular candidiasis is a fungal infection of the eye which causes blurred vision. The fungi, candida albicans, is the same pathogen which causes yeast infections of the vagina, skin, mouth (thrush). However, when c. albicans enters the bloodstream it can travel to areas like the eye, the kidney, the lining of the heart, the lung, or even the brain. In fact, c. albicans can even proved deadly in rare cases of immuno-supressed individuals. So, what is it about high doses of IV buprenorphine that can cause ocular candidiasis? The IV. In other words, any IV drug use can and does cause ocular candidiasis. The needle can transfer the pathogen into the bloodstream. Therefore, there is nothing about buprenorphine causing the infection, only the means of transmitting the drug into the bloodstream.

While I love doing research, I don't usually put an effort into threads when the poster seems, in my opinion, to be attempting to attribute many unusual side effects to buprenorphine. If asked again, I would still assert that buprenorphine does not cause one to become cross-eyed.

Your original, vague question, devoid of punctuation, asks about nerve damage. I answered to the level of the language used in the question. So you don't need to condescend to me. I have a very smart 19 year old son who graduated with a GPA of 4.71 and an ACT score of 35 (out of 36), and that only scratches the surface of his accomplishments. You may very well be as smart as my son. However, my son was brought up with manners and would not post to me in an arrogant manner if he were part of this discussion. Perhaps neuroplasticity will improve your diminished brain activity in the area that governs social functioning. One can only hope.

Until then, I will follow Pelican's lead and disregard any future posts of yours. (Thank you, Pelican.)

Amy

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Last edited by Amy-Work In Progress on Mon Jun 19, 2017 5:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Spelling mistake.


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 Post subject: Re: cross eyed from sub?
PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 7:46 pm 
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Amy, you're one classy act!!


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 Post subject: Re: cross eyed from sub?
PostPosted: Wed Jun 21, 2017 2:53 am 
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"While I love doing research, I don't usually put an effort into threads when the poster seems, in my opinion, to be attempting to attribute many unusual side effects to buprenorphine."

Of the two side effects I've posted about (I guess two means "manu unusual side effects), libido and vision, which of these many unusual side effects do you think I'm trying to attribute to suboxone? As if I have some type of beef with Sunoco e hahaha. No no no, you see I just happened to get two side effects from suboxone, decrease in libido, and going cross eyed (which people have actually messaged me to say they have experienced)...so which of these are unusual to you? Another side effect I could attribute is irritation and lack of empathy for others. Which are kind of huge for me. When off of opiates I am a very kind and caring individual. When on opiates I am a very bitter, angry, and mean person. Perhaps it's because I'm taking the easy way out of addiction instead of learning to face life on life's terms. But I love suboxone and it has saved my life. I can neither blame it nor praise it for anything, it's just a tool and a crutch I'm using for now to stop me from killing myself with heroin because all other means have failed. Although I don't think it can stop me from actually killing myself in a more direct way, which I've been toying with the idea lately.


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 Post subject: Re: cross eyed from sub?
PostPosted: Wed Jun 21, 2017 7:54 pm 
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You need some kind of intervention or check yourself in to a rehab place or hospital. Opiates, IMO, make people feel happy. It hits the pleasure centres of the brain and that's why it creates addicts. It seems you are having an opposite effect and need to be off everything. Reading all your messages imply a young age. If your in your 20's or early 30's maybe it is better to seek abstinence and not suboxon.

Just my opinion but when you talk casually about suicide it raises red flags all over the place and people here can't do anything to intervene.

Please find a professional addiction doctor or clinic and tell them what you are telling this place.

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 Post subject: Re: cross eyed from sub?
PostPosted: Wed Jun 21, 2017 9:04 pm 
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Seeker have you ever been on this forum under another name?

Or do these one-eyed irrational Sub haters all just sound like a broken record?

Mind you we've never had one blame Sub for their small penis.


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