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 Post subject: CRAZY illegal situation
PostPosted: Fri Apr 30, 2010 8:47 am 
Hey everybody, I have a lifelong friend who went through a Sub program herself and supported my decision to go on Sub. Even though I had read a lot online it really helped me to know someone personally who had been on it and i owe her a debt of gratitude for helping me make the right decision for myself.

Anyway, a close friend of hers got out of prison recently and relapsed on heroin. He is on probation so any slip at all drug wise will send him back, so he is afraid to tell the truth about what happened and get help on his own. He has the opportunity to get a good job but he needs to pass a urine test. My friend wants to help him detox by giving him Sub. She knows I have exra because my doc gives me 60/month now but I've only been taking 12mg/day (45).

I have to say I never bought drugs on the street when I was in active addiction. I lied to doctors and bummed pills off of friends and family. Divertnig Subs illegally would never have even entered my mind before my friend brought it up.
Bottom line is I know its wrong. Anyone who has read my replies to people on this forum who are on Sub without a prescription I have advised to get under a doctor' care. The problem is I know this guy is screwed because he is on State medical and if he goes to them he will get in legal trouble. I truly have compassion for him and I want to help him, in addition to the fact that I don't need the extra pills myself.
What would you do if you were in my shoes?
Lilly


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 30, 2010 10:36 am 
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Whew! Lilly, what a bad predicament your friend has put you in! I really gave this a lot of thought instead of just thinking to myself NO WAY (which of course was my gut response). If a good friend of mine asked me, especially one I felt a certain obligation to, I would feel bad about not helping. But after thinking about it for a while I would still have to say, difficult as it may be, I wouldn't do it.

Why? Because I really don't think it would help them. Not in the short term, they are probably going to use anyway, and of course definitely not in the long term. It puts you at risk, especially if they are on probation. I am afraid even though your heart would be in the right place it could backfire on you. Worth the risk? Not to me. Don't do it. Sorry you have to be put on the spot like that. You have my permission to look out for number one in this situation.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 30, 2010 11:10 am 
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I have to agree with Suboxone Success. I just want to add a couple of other thoughts: What would happen if your doctor found out? Wouldn't you then be putting yourself and your treatment at risk? Don't get me wrong, I totally understand how you would want to help. I would feel the exact same way.

Also consider how people diverting suboxone puts the whole idea of office-based treatment at risk as well. I, too, am sorry you were put in such a position - it really kind of stinks that your friend did that. That said, keep in mind this is only my opinion. Ultimately, it's your decision and you are the one that has to live with whatever you decide. You must do what you think is best. You will always have our support, regardless of differing opinions.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 30, 2010 11:19 am 
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Hi Lilly,
I'm glad I got to post here. I wanted to Thank You for all your well thought out post'. I enjoy reading them so please keep them coming....
On the matter you brought up..... I think it's a NO win situation for YOU!! If I understand it correctly you will have an Extra 15 pills a month to give up? That will give your friend 1/2 a pill a day for the month. That's if you stay @ 60 pills? I don't know if that would be enough to do the trick?? Also you are taking a chance by not being totally honest with your Suboxone Dr... If they find out you are diverting some of your meds. .. It will be GoodBye Dr.!!! I don't know about you But, that's a chance I would NOT be willing to take!! I know you will think you're disappointing your friend But IMHO you need to put Lilly First.. :D I just wanted to get my thoughts out there for you to look at. Take care of yourself and keep those great post' coming....

God Bless
TW

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 30, 2010 11:20 am 
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Wow....that situation does suck!!! I understand your desire to help our friend, especially because, as a fellow addict, you understand the difficulties that this guy is going through....and you want to help him succeed. I agree with suboxonesuccess...your friend has put you in a really difficult situation... :(


Having said that, I too would say no....for many of the same reasons that suboxonesuccess mentioned. Also, think of this scenario. I am a teacher, and I am also looking for work. Let's say that I relapse, finally get a job offer (pending a drug screen), and I turn to you for help. You give me some sub, I take them for 3 days, pass my drug screen, and get the job. Now what? I'm not on a sub program, and I am out of sub...and in withdrawal....what do I do? I probably use, and now you have a high teacher (or a teacher in withdrawal) watching your kids all day :shock: ....see what I mean? I know this guy probably isn't a teacher, but he will be doing SOMETHING while incapacitated, and that aint good.

This guy is obviously still struggling with his addiction, and needs some sort of additional help. I'm not judging his relapse, but it does indicate that he is in crisis, and a few days of sub isn't going to help that. Also, I am a firm believer in having to live with the consequences of our behavior, especially as addicts. No one is treating him unfairly....he knew that, because he is on probation, he would be subject to drug screens. Also, as a former social worker (well, almost....I dropped out of my grad program to get sober...but I did a lot of work with addicts in an in-patient facility while in grad school), I can tell you that those drug screens do serve a purpose. They are a deterrent, and help those monitoring this guy too help him if he is in trouble...and, it sounds like he is.

My cold response is, let them give him the long term help that he needs, and don't involve yourself in a really dangerous, illegal situation that could jeopardize YOUR sobriety....what happens if they detect subs in his system (we don't know what kind of test they are using....many of our residents were on probation and the tests we gave them DID test for suboxone), and it gets back that you gave them to him?

I hate the idea that someone may lose a job or go back to jail because of addiction, but it's like NA says, addiction ends the same way, jails, institutions, and death.

This must be a really hard decision for you, and I hope I didn't sound mean or dismissive....I just really don't want you to get hurt from any of this.

Take care,
Elizabeth

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 30, 2010 12:33 pm 
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I think you have some great responses and a lot to consider. Here is one more concern: This guy is clearly being watched by the legal system. He has to see a parole officer on a regular basis, etc. They are keeping tabs on him. Have you considered that they might find out from him where he got the Suboxone from? If you were to give him some, and this fact were to come to light, do you not think they would press him for his source? We always want to think that things like this just won't happen. Then again, we thought that getting addicted to opiates would not happen either. I think your risks here are too great to even further consider this.

I think you know what my "vote" is on all of this.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 30, 2010 7:04 pm 
Thanks everybody. After I posted I went for a walk and decided NOT to do it.
When I got back I spoke to my friend. It turns out her addict friend showed up at her house drunk last night and started getting ready to shoot up in her kitchen - in front of her daughter! My friend angrily threw him out of the house (I don't know why she let him in in the first place), and she is cutting ties with him. She's a recovering addict herself, so he put her in danger, as well as her daughter.

So I guess that's a lesson learned for both of us. We want to help the addict who is still suffering. But it's downright dangerous to deal with people in active addiction.


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 Post subject: Beware....
PostPosted: Fri Apr 30, 2010 9:20 pm 
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Hi Lilly,
Glad to see everything work out for you.... But you should tell your friend to be ready cause more than likely her buddy will be back.... He'll be back with all the reasons he was f'uped that night, why he deserves another chance, etc., etc. .... You came to right decision to NOT enable this guy But I can tell you from first hand experience that addicts don't give up very easy!! Just try to keep your Recovery as your TOP priority.... and you will be fine!! Just wanted to get my two Cents out there and congratulate you on your decision to say NO.... IMHO it was the right thing to do.... Keep up the good work! I look forward to your post'.. Take Care.

God Bless
TW

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 30, 2010 10:42 pm 
Wow Lilly, what a trip! I guess in a way, your friend's buddy made your decision a lot easier, or made the decision you had already come to an even more sure-thing good and right choice.
I just wanted to add something. To be honest, I don't have many friends who are addicts, so it hasn't been that much of an issue. But I would be careful about who you even tell that you're on bupe. Even your friends in recovery could know about it, but they certainly wouldn't need to know that you've managed to stock up some extras. I understand in your case, this is a trusted friend and you are close, but still, I've got to question her a little bit for even considering asking you to do this. I think she owes you an apology actually for putting you in this position. There is just too much at stake.
Now that I said that, I will make an admission. I do have an acquaintence whom I met while in the Nurse Recovery program. She is an opiate addict. She relapsed twice during her 9 months or so in the program. In order to restart the program and stay in, she had to go see an Addictionologist. She did and he presented her with the record of all the scripts she had filled over that 9 month period which did not gel with her admissions of the two 'isolated' lapses she had gotten caught on. Well, he gave her two options basically.....go to a 90 day residential program or give up your license. She gave up her license. Anyway I talk to her from time to time. One of the times was her asking me to pick up a script for 60 Lortab for her 'grandma' and split it with her. I told her no and we talked about the fact that I was considering starting Suboxone. She told me that she had taken it for a few months several years ago and it had done wonders....maybe she should try it again. End of discussion.
Didn't hear from her again until several months had passed. She called me a few weeks ago, crying and asking if I had gotten on Suboxone. I was really hesitant, but I told her I had and it was wonderful. She said "I've got my appointment the day after tomorrow, but I'm dying. I'm in such bad withdrawal, I feel like I'm losing my mind. I don't think I can hang on for another two days." She then proceeded to beg me for some of my Suboxone. I thought about it for a minute and agreed. I felt it was the right thing to do. So I met up with her and spent a good 2 hours talking to her. I gave her one half of an 8mg Suboxone to help her and told her to keep her appointment. I told her that would be the first and last time I would ever give her any. Period. I told her that I would not be helping her if I gave her more. She understood and thanked me profusely. She checked in with me on her way to her appointment and after. I talk to her once every week or two and she's doing great....now 2 months into her Sub treatment. I feel like even though I did the "wrong" thing on some levels, I did the "right" thing for the circumstances.
Every situation is different. I will never repeat it and she knows it. That situation was different than the one Lilly was in. But I totally understand wanting to help someone who is suffering. You just have to make sure the price to you is not too high. And the potential for a high price was very real for Lilly. Furthermore, "buddy" is way too sick for a few Sub to help him anyhow. We'll just have to hope he figures it out and gets real help before it's too late.


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PostPosted: Sat May 01, 2010 1:05 am 
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I think what u wanted to do by helping is a good thing but on the other hand i think its a bad idea all together. cause what if hes tested for bup? then he pops up for that and like u said he could get in legal trouble which could mean trouble for you if they ask him were he got it from to stay out of trouble. then you have leagal trouble. wanting to help someone is a good thing but it has to be done the right way in my eyes. i dont want anyone to go to prison ever but someone has to say it hes not ready to be in general soceity if he got out and relapsed right away. i know this is not what u wanna hear but i watched a close friend go threw the same thing and in the long run him going back was the best thing possiable because once he got out a second time he realize that getting high one time, right when u get out isnt worth it and hes been clean for 5 years now not even a single drink!

i read what happen to your friend and thats just sad. i never understood how someone could be in such a terriable place like prison and know they could go back if they use but still use. an to do that in front of her baby girl is just an outrage. i cant say im above it cause i was an addict too but im glad i can say im not in that posistion any more.


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PostPosted: Sat May 01, 2010 1:23 am 
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I think you made the right choice. I also want to add that many of us here don't use insurance to get our suboxone. Many of us don't even have that option. He manages to get the money for heroin and if he wants to get clean that bad he can jump on the suboxone web site himself and he can find the patient assistance program, etc. He can also come clean with his probation officer because they are actually usually VERY lenient if the person comes to them without having a positive screen and asks for help and says they screwed up. I used to intern as a probation officer and they didn't even report those ones to the judge as a violation. The probation officer (in WA state anyways) has a choice to violate them or NOT to violate them. When the person wants help, they help them find resources. Suboxone could very well be one of them. He just has to want it bad enough to go to any lengths.

You would have just prolonged the problems for him and possibly caused some problems for you. Smart cookie you are :-)

Cherie


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PostPosted: Sat May 01, 2010 3:57 pm 
You guys are all so right. My friend's buddy has already come crawling back, but I think mostly because her daughter was involved she won't deal with him. She was smart enough to say, "I'm an addict myself, so I know all the excuses". Unfortunately this poor guy is probably going to end up in a world of hurt before he get's better.
Reflecting on all of this though I've come to realize that my friend has a lot of crazy people in her life, and her judgement isn't always that good. On the one hand I really identify with her as an addict, and we have a lot of family of origin issues in common that aren't easy to talk about with people who haven't been through it. On the other hand, there are definately circumstances with her and the people she associates with that are not good for my recovery. Luckily, she doesn't live close by and we usually only talk on the phone.
I truly do feel bad that I have more pills than I need that are being covered by insurance, while others are struggling to pay for their prescriptions. I really would like to get them to an addict who is in need, but there is just no safe, legal way or doing it that doesn't risk my own recovery.
Thanks everybody for being here and for sharing your experiences.


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PostPosted: Sat May 01, 2010 6:20 pm 
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Lily,

Wow....what a roller-coaster for both you and your friend!! I couldn't help but see the parallels between this post, and the one from Timmy ( posted "well, here goes" about his struggle to finally stop using and get on a suboxone program). In one of his posts, he was talking about his "friends (most notably his brother who doesn't want him to come clean to his parents for fear of outing his own use and his dealer who stops by and leaves drugs...even though he knows Tim is trying to get clean). I think all of us who read Tim's posts (and I pray he returns soon) can hear his frustration....the incredible desire to stop and the difficulties of changing you life and abandoning everything that is familiar. Both of these stories really do prove that, no matter how old we are, all of us are susceptible to peer pressure....especially addicts.

I think this is one of the hardest parts of sobriety...having to cut of relationships that put our recovery in danger. As addicts, we can sympathize with what these people are going through. We don't want to be hypocrites and judge them for doing what we too have done. And, most importantly....they are our friends, and have often been the only people that we had contact with while using. Leaving them really does feel like betrayal.

I don't envy anyone in this position, but I really do hope your friend has the strength to get this person out of her life (and away from her daughter). I also hope that you will look at this relationship with a critical eye, and evaluate its impact (if any) on your own sobriety. I don't know this person, and this may be an isolated incident. I really hope that it is.

From reading your previous posts, I know that you have an incredible understanding of the recovery process, and I know that you will ultimately do what is best for you.

I also think this is a great post for other people who have "friends" who are still using to read and think about....I know it made me sit down and look at my own like more critically.

Elizabeth

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PostPosted: Sat May 08, 2010 8:39 am 
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That's a crazy situation. Let me give you my perspective. I spent almost two decades in prison because of my heroin habit. I was either in prison or on parole from November of 1983 until July of 1998, and while I was on parole, I was routinely screened for drugs and routinely failed those screenings. I was paroled 4 times and never lasted longer than about 6 months before I was on the run again.

Many people enabled me when I was on the run and NONE of that enabling was helpful, because ultimately, it just prolonged my active addiction.

Look, I know it's a stupid cliche, but it's a good one to put out there in a situation like this:

Two wrongs don't make a right.

I think you made the correct decision, and ultimately, although it may not seem like it on the surface, I also think you made the most compassionate decision as well.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 04, 2010 2:53 am 
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I think that I might have a way to help your friends friends. At the county hospital and also in various places around big citties there are suboxone clinics like methade clinics. And anyone can get in there and get a script for free. I live right near San Francisco and Oakland and they are all over the place. He can go to one of those and suboxone does not come up on a drug test unless they use a special test that tests only for the subs and the sub test is about $60 and they rarely use them. I have been on House Arrest foir the last eight months and get tested regularly and buy a pretty hardcore test and it never comes up. This could be a better way of helping and keep yourself out of the picture completely.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 04, 2010 8:07 am 
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In the addiction field,I have learned that there are two ways to make a professional decision- legally or ethically. What may be ethical is not always legal and what is legal is not always ethical. The individual has to decide what is best. I have been presented with this situation myself. I had a long time friend who was on opiates for a long time and she needed help. She had no insurance, no money and was in a world of hurt. She came to me for help and I did on a few occasions- to help her get clean. In my opinion, I did the ethical thing. I am a compassionate person and I did not want to see someone I care about suffer needlessly.
This friend ended up going back and forth with using, and I again gave thought to the situation. The next time she came to me for help, I declined. I realized she is an addict and her behavior was as such. I had to wonder if it was worth my freedom to help someone who was sick, yet unpredictable. I told her that if she can find a way to use, she can find a way to get help. I was right, and she eventually quit using and is doing OK.
Sometimes we want to help someone out because we know how it feels. Diversion is a very serious crime- you have to ask yourself if it is worth your freedom to help someone.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 04, 2010 8:56 pm 
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+1 on making the right decision. It surely sucks to be this guy and he's a lot worse off than most of the people here, buuuuuuuuuuuuuuut, his addiction got him in to this mess and he needs to take what's coming if he wants to fix himself. I know it sounds harsh, but he made the decision to use so he put himself in this situation. If he ends up going back to prison and that is what it takes to get clean, well, then that is the consequence of addiction. All of us have had fucked up stuff happen to us because of our actions.

If he was given sub and skated past his drug test this one time, I would still bet dollars to doughnuts that he'd be right back in this same situation the next time a test comes up. He made a horrible decision but it was still his choice.

I MAYBE, MAYBE, MAYBE consider reaching out to him M and trying to convince him to get treatment of some sort. If he goes on subs himself (legally) then he might very well not fail the test. That would be awesome. On the other hand, even if he tests positive for subs he can at least show the parole officer a real and legal prescription and hope for a pass (as someone above pointed out). Worst case he would go to jail for getting the sub script and that worst case is the guaranteed outcome if he doesn't try.....so trying doesn't hurt and the upside is tremendous....he gets his life back!

Best of luck to your friend and good job keeping yourself out of trouble ;).


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 05, 2010 11:21 pm 
It's weird timing that this old thread just came back up to the top. The truth of the matter is that I DID give my friend some subs on a few occaisons (not in the instance I wrote about in this thread). I had extras and my friend had her own prescription bottle for 8mg subs, so when i gave her some she put them right into her legal bottle with her name on it, so I figured it was pretty safe. The problem is I didn't think it all the way through to the end. I've learned that she has a lot of unstable and/or active people in her life. And worse than that when does it end? The day deemanchu responded to this thread she left me two voice mails and I knew why.

I hope you guys don't think I'm an idiot. I'm actually a reasonably intellegent, educated person. I just make a lot of bad decisions when it comes to drugs, and I'm a bleeding heart when it comes to wanting to help other people. I did call my friend back and I told her I was going to start tapering, so I would be getting fewer and fewer pills each month. That was a white lie, but it was just the easiest way to let her know that I wouldn't have any more extras.

Shelwoy was right about being careful about who you let know you have pills. I had never really thought about it before, because the couple of other people that know I'm on subs aren't addicts and would never ask me for pills.
I got on subs to CLEAN up my life. Not to get into diversion and actually end up doing something illegal. Jeez.
Anyway, I had to get that off my chest. If anyone out there is thinking about "helping" somebody out, think twice. Like others have said, if they're addicts and they really want to get clean, they need to get into their own program.

By the way, YoungAddict, I live in New England and sub doctors are few and far between over here. But I guess it's still more accessible than in Canada


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